The hypocrisy has reached new levels

[Mithrandir]

Gonna try and tackle a large portion of this thread at once, so bear with me :)

Edit: No idea why the quote tags aren't working.

Edit2: ... and now they are. Interesting. :huh:

It could certainly be argued that if you had received 12 or 13 years of lousy education from lousy teachers, you might be perceived as undeserving of higher education. If we agree that being poor gets you a worse education, and that a far greater percentage of minorities are poor than whites, then one would have to suspect that these programs are not especially poorly targeted.

The problem is that they don't *have* to be "in the general ballpark" of the problem. They can hit it firmly on the head by basing advantages given out upon economic brackets, rather than race, and avoid all the inherent racism in their proposal to boot.

More minorities get a chance at a decent education, and if they can't hack it, they wash out and try something else.

What does that do to the psyche of an individual though? Personally, to know that I was purposely thrust into a situation in which my chances of prospering were at low merely so that some other individual could further his or her agenda would leave me extremely bitter, etc.

"Throw 'em in there and if they fail it's no biggie!" certainly sounds like an amoral statement at best, no?

My proposition is that while your friends are quiet and respectful, they have probably dealt with many who were not.

They were keeping to themselves and had been for several minutes. They were told to leave nonetheless. If this had been any other situation, those moderators would have been dragged over the coals for stereotyping certain individuals as "trouble makers" based solely upon the color of their skin. I see no difference in this situation.

This may be a place where "the minorities" can congregate and be together to help them build a "community".

A "community" based solely upon one's skin color, utterly refusing to allow anyone different admittance is not a community. It's a clique. A clique based upon stereotypes and feelings of mistrust and hate, much less.

The irony of the situation, that I mentioned in passing in the original post, is that they are even hypocritical about it being a lounge meant to provide services to all minorities. Only portraits of African Americans line the walls and they totally refuse to even consider adding more portraits to, at the very least, round out their collection to include other minority leaders. They would probably keel over and die if I even suggested a portrait of some Caucasian hero.

Minority specific fraternal and sorority organizations are able to discriminate based on race. When I was at the University, there were any number of campus groups that discriminated who could become members (e.g. Campus Lesbians, Muslim Prayer Group, and a plethora of ethnic groups). Take my example of the Muslim Prayer Group. They had a very nice place, and it was a very spiritual place, but it was set aside for followers of Islam. So, imagine now that 200 Christians were allowed to also use the space displacing the 2 dozen Muslims. It would become a Christian place, and cease being a place where the Muslims would feel comfortable. These special islands are very important for minorities to have an identity as minorities, amongst the ocean of homogenization that happens within the University.

Fraternities and sororities have their activities on private property. University property, on the other hand, is heavily publicly-funded and (perhaps more importantly :) ) I am also dumping a lot of money into it. On yet another ironic side note, University officials have hardly as pure of motives as it appears at first glance. Even after the AA victories in the Supreme Court, a band of high-profile alumni donors got together and refused to supply donations unless the University amended its AA stance? What does the Holier-Than-Though Pure-of-Motive University do? Why, they quickly amended the number of points given to minority applicants down from the ridiculous levels they were at previously to a slightly more modest level. The moneybags barely flex their muscles, and the University drops its previously cherished convictions like a bad habit and gets on its hands and knees and begs for the Moolah IV to be plugged back in. If they truly believe in this cause so heartily, why do they not fight for it harder? A bunch of hypocrites. Pathetic.

Then you bring up various campus groups. These groups don't deny services or access to resources to others not part of the group. Also, I almost guarantee you that even if you weren't as lesbian (for example) that they would absolutely love for you to attend their meetings nonetheless. Posters are common all around campus inviting "anyone and everyone" to attend these gatherings.

I am challenging this notion. We are not all the same, and we should not be forced to be the same. How does one differentiate themselves in society if one is not allowed to have express their differences in gender, race, religion, ethnicity, or sexual preferences.

There is a huge difference between expressing your individuality and discriminating against people based solely upon something as disgustingly superficial as one's skin color by denying them access to basic services, public property, and so on. I am part of the Caucasian community and yet I have never felt the need to use discrimination against others as a crutch upon which to "express my individuality". I see no reason why anyone of any other ethnic decent would for some magical reason need to discriminate to express themselves.

So my observation of how the courts work is that the crux of "what is discrimination?" is that as long as the white students are served with similar areas where they can study peacefully, then discrimination is not occurring against the "class" of whites but only to those that want to study in every area.

Well that's sort of the gist of the whole thing, is it not? As stated in the original post, the "Minority Lounge" is basically the nicest, most easily accessible, and quietest lounge on campus. Caucasians are denied access to it because they are Caucasian. That is discrimination. I see no middle ground.

Should the NAACP be forced by the courts to accept white people? I believe the courts would examine the "Harms" to both sides and award compensation to the "class" where discrimination caused harm.

As Pete pointed out, the NAACP does have many Caucasian members and supporters :)

Where I live, it's still segregated. Instead of whites only, it's signs proudly proclaiming "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." Lots and lots of black students end up in "special ed" class rooms when they fail rigged competency tests. White businesses still hire white folks, while many black business hire only black folks, which is shameful. And stupid. Strip clubs for white folks, strip clubs for black folks, and the racially mixed strip clubs always end up in the news papers for the worst most cartoony bar room brawls you can imagine, and the local politicians point to this behavior and loudly proclaim that we need to bring back segregation.

I honestly was not aware that stuff such as this still occurred in this country. It makes me sick just reading about it. I am disgusted that a cadre of sad individuals feel the need to perpetuate these warped stereotypes and delusions because they are too weak-willed and poor of heart to see the world through lenses not corrupted with hate.

That said... I know it is corny, but I still cannot help but feel that "Two wrongs don't make a right." Reverse discrimination (or just plain discrimination as WL would point out ;) can never make the situation any better. It might succeed to shrouding the problem for a time, but in the end the wound will just fester until eventually bursting over and being ten times worse than it ever was.

On the second point, I don't see any difference in facilities between the two. Should I camp out in the toilets of the opposite gender complaining of discrimination and wait for things to change? Both 'sides' need those facilities, in your case on campus there are plenty of places to study and you are complaining about one facility that is by AA dedicated to a group that you do not belong?

It's not so much an issue of equal or unequal facilities between men and women bathrooms, more like our society has just developed into just believing that men and women strangers shouldn't be showering, excreting waste, etc. around each other. No bigotry or hate or discrimination is involved, it's just how things evolved over the ages. Although I will admit that it is a rather odd hang-up.

As to our second point... As stated above, it's basically the nicest lounge on campus. But that's a moot point. Even if it wasn't, it would still stand as a shining beacon of hypocrisy and herald the disgusting nature of discrimination and all that it entails. It is our duty as a society to not let the "little wrongs" and "little injustices" go unchecked because those "little" things have a tendency to sprout into mammoth-size problems. Then at that point, you would have already set a precedent of being uncaring in the matter. No, I wholeheartedly believe that if you truly believe in something you must fight for it tooth and nail, or else you aren't fighting for it at all.

You seem to be saying that you agree with affirmative action as long as everyone is treated as equal? This essentially rules out AA completely.

AA's intent is to provide assistance to the poor in receiving a quality higher education. It takes a huge stereotype of "all minorities are poor" (especially African Americans) are treats it as fact. Dump the stereotype. Stop lying about who you're really trying to help, and assist those people that deserve it.

I went into much greater details about how I feel it should be done above (basically: go to the root of the problem and fix the horrible state of inner city/poor schools so that underprivileged individuals would have an equal shot right from the start and wouldn't need special programs to vault them into higher education because they would be starting off at the same educational level).

Finally, as to the pension, it is not given to those that put in what you suggested . It is given to everyone that reaches a specific age, some of who have done nothing to deserve it, so I see no difference.

Pensions are given to those who have been employed for a certain period of time. If they had not been working hard, shown loyalty, etc. they wouldn't be employed now would they? :)

If the tables are tilted one way for a long time, and then centered(equality) then the ball is still going to be on the (white) side, from now to eternity. If you tip it back the other way *for a short time* then at least it can come back closer to the center when it is time to 'centre the table'.

Who is to decide how long the "tables are turned"? What do you tell the people that you are knowingly and purposefully being repressed for the benefit of others? How long are the tables turned? What do you do when you turn them back? How do you handle the reactions of the individuals who are givens benefits, and then promptly stripped of them once this arbitrary individual has decided "Time's up!" (almost as if he was baking a cake)? Ad infinitum.

The fact of the matter is, the entire concept of "we'll just tip the scale for a teensy weensy bit" is failed right form the get-go. It would be a bad policy even if you're weren't purposely bringing suffering down upon others.

Yes, lets stop minorities from having a peaceful place to study. Brilliant.

What's wrong with any of the innumerable other places to study on campus? You're making it out to seem as if minorities are being dragged from their rooms and lynched on the streets. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Check what the state of Oklahoma had to say about race and incarceration. Note table three: nationwide, 1099 blacks per 100,000 were incarcerated, the total for whites being just 165 per 100,000. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer a slightly worse chance to get into university over being six times as likely to be thrown in jail. White guys have it so tough these days!

It's a given fact that African Americans are poorer than Caucasians on average in this country. It's also a given fact that poorer individuals are much more likely to get arrested, put in jail, etc. due to their unfortunate situation. Find out what percentage of those 100,000 African Americans are poor and what percentage of the Caucasians are poor. You'll have your answer right there.

And yet you passed up an opportunity to practice your arguments on me when I defended affirmative action upthread.

I was pressed for time and had only enough time to respond to Occhi's post. No reason to take pot-shots and stroke your e-peen junior.

I reiterate: when you consider that blacks are more likely to grow up in single parent homes (see above) AND more likely to receive a poor education, perhaps a black is more likely to appear less qualified than a white is, given similar talents. Do you care to refute this or will it remain unchallenged?

Okay, now I'm starting to get a bit frustrated... does no one read what I type?

I wholly admit that African Americans are more likely "to grow up in single parent homes (see above) AND more likely to receive a poor education". In fact, I have said this in basically every single post I have made in this thread. They are more likely to grow up with a single parent and receive a poor education themselves because their own parents got a poor education, which led to much more impoverished conditions, which leads to them not receiving a good education either - further perpetuating the vicious loop.

However, AA is not the answer (as I have been harping and harping and harping upon in this thread). Hit the problem at its core: the horrible state of low-income/inner-city public schools in this nation rather than slapping on the band-aid that AA is. AA sticks individuals who have not had the base of knowledge they require to usually be effective at a collegiate academic level. Work hard at making inner-city schools (at the very least) roughly equivalent to schools in richer areas and you start to give those individuals the base of knowledge they require to effectively compete as college applicants without putting them in situations for which they are not prepared.

We don't need AA. We don't need the disgusting discrimination inherent within it.