Norway Killer gets 21-Years

[FireIceTalon]

Real, true, "by the book" communism can't exist in a society that is run by human beings. It requires a more "wholistic" vision than what human beings are born with. From the time that we are born, we are selfish, idealistic creatures.

This is more incorrect, idealist human nature crud. Yuck. Ever heard of Tabula Rasa? We are all born with a blank slate. I'm not an Existentialist, but nevertheless human behavior, morality, ethics, thought, and consciousness has NOTHING to do with genetics, and EVERYTHING to do with cultural and social norms, environment, economic conditions, and other material factors. Because material conditions can, do (and will) change, so does the nature of humans. In short, we are a product of our environment. Change that environment, and you will change the nature and behavior of people - this has been proven throughout history. If we are indeed greedy and selfish, it is because we learned to be so, not because we are born that way - because we most certainly aren't. Just like people who are racist, sexist, or on the other end, altruistic and egalitarian, also learned these things. Material conditions change the human condition, not the reverse. The rule of thumb is, if something can be learned, it can also be changed.

Part of the problem that I have with what you say fireicetalon, is that you have gone out of your way to say "Well they aren't communist, and they aren't communist, and they aren't communist" When those very people who you are saying "aren't communist" called themselves communist. You are, holding yourself to a higher "level" of the idea of communism than those who have come before you. It's easy to look at the USSR and China, and Cuba and say "Well, they aren't REALLY communist" when you are trying to defend the idea of communism.

There are no "levels" of Communism, and what people call themselves is irrelevant - only material conditions matter. Hitler would probably call himself a "human rights activist", and he probably thought he was doing a noble thing for the world. This, obviously, does not make it so, as the material conditions that resulted were anything but noble. Communism is defined by a classless, stateless international society where the means of production is PUBLIC and all citizens have self-determination in relation to those appropriations. None of these attributes or material conditions existed in Russia, China, Cuba or any other state that calls themselves "Communist". You are still arguing from the point of ideology, and not objective science.

You are using idealistic interpretation to disprove that the "communist" countries that have come and gone aren't really communist, then pointing at someone else and saying "No! How dare you bring idealism into this and try to debate me with it!"

Nope, I'm using a MATERIALIST interpretation to prove my points. See above. Marxism is grounded in Materialism, and Materialism and Idealism are fundamentally opposed to one another - the former is objective, the latter subjective.

The problem comes in, when you fail to realize that these countries used communism as their base, and this is what you ended up with. Human beings are incapable of a society that functions this way. We have thousands of years of historical evidence that points out that we just can't do it.

Quite the contrary, really. Communism has never been realized as the Base for any society at any time. Regarding more of that human nature junk, see first part of my post up above.

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Gee it would be nice if every thread didn't devolve into "Communism r0xx0rs, capitalism suxx0rs plus ur Mom sux" discussions.

Don't feed the troll when he spouts about Communism guys. Ignore the statements and focus on the topic at hand.

You are right. I'm wasting my time and he doesn't understand my words.

I understand them. I just dont agree with them. I guess I'm a troll because of that. Better watch out, I'm waiting under that bridge to get ya! The big bad communist troll - probably the #1 most feared and hated boogey-man by Libertarians, with high taxes being a close second. LOL.

@Tal, perhaps threads wouldn't devolve if people didn't instigate the issue with me? Just a thought.