Quote:He was sentenced to the maximum possible term of 21 years and was ordered to serve a minimum of 10 years in prison.

Quote:The sentence could be extended, potentially indefinitely, in the future if he is considered still to pose a threat to society. Norway does not have the death penalty.

(08-24-2012, 08:09 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote: Only good Nazi is a dead one, and this guy himself has several traits of being one - namely being a staunch nationalist, being against multi-culturalism, and just being a bigoted, xenophobic and ethnocentric reactionary scumbag in general, even if he isn't actually a Nazi by title - so he is close enough. Either way, if it were up to me, he'd be maggot food.

Just another example of a reactionary and misguided moron blaming another group of people for his and the worlds problems, instead of acknowledging the shortcomings of the oppressive system that he wants to uphold, and that it is people like him that are part of the problem. But damn it Norway, dont give this guy 21 years in prison. Put his fucking ass in front of a firing squad and call it a day. I'm usually against the death penalty and Norway doesn't even have it, but in a case like this where it is cut and dry that he did it, and it is obvious he was sane and very unapologetic about his actions and therefore unlikely to ever change (not to mention he is just a reactionary douche in general), I say he isn't worthy of sharing oxygen with, and is a waste of tax payer money to keep him locked up. People like this very rarely can be rehabilitated back into society.

(08-24-2012, 08:57 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote: Hehe, my previous post was quite un-Communist of me. But even us Commies have our limits. I am very strongly against the death penalty (99% of the time), but this is one of those very rare 1% occasions where I see it as justifiable.

(08-24-2012, 08:57 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote: This incident is a perfect example of why I'm a Communist, because the Capitalist system breeds horrible tragedies such as this one.

(08-24-2012, 09:46 PM)Mavfin Wrote:

(08-24-2012, 08:57 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote: This incident is a perfect example of why I'm a Communist, because the Capitalist system breeds horrible tragedies such as this one.

Oh, and Stalin didn't kill millions in the name of Communism, however false it may have been? Not to mention all the people who simply disappeared w/o a voice or a trial of any kind. Stupidity and murder are not limited to one ideology, whatever its name may be.

(On this guy in Norway, I do agree with you that 20 years or whatever is a travesty, btw.)

(08-24-2012, 08:57 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote: This incident is a perfect example of why I'm a Communist, because the Capitalist system breeds horrible tragedies such as this one.

(08-24-2012, 10:36 PM)Ashock Wrote: Hang on a sec. Are you trying to say that commies don't what.... kill people, or they don't just kill certain groups of people, or what exactly?

(08-24-2012, 10:36 PM)Ashock Wrote:

(08-24-2012, 08:57 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote: This incident is a perfect example of why I'm a Communist, because the Capitalist system breeds horrible tragedies such as this one.

Hang on a sec. Are you trying to say that commies don't what.... kill people, or they don't just kill certain groups of people, or what exactly?

(08-24-2012, 10:52 PM)vor_lord Wrote:

(08-24-2012, 10:36 PM)Ashock Wrote: Hang on a sec. Are you trying to say that commies don't what.... kill people, or they don't just kill certain groups of people, or what exactly?

It's a common defense of an ideologue. Explain any undesirable behavior of an adherent as being outside the proper definition of the ideology.

Christians don't kill people -- if they do, they aren't "true Christians".
Communists don't kill people -- if they do, they aren't "true Communists".
Jedi Knights don't kill people -- if they do, they aren't "true Jedis".

Replace with whatever your ideology is.

(08-24-2012, 05:20 PM)Taem Wrote: :LINK:

Is this how they do justice in Norway? A man murders 77-people, is found competent to stand trial so clearly knew what he was doing, and gets a mere 21 years, of which the trial judge say he needs to serve at least 10 of those years... 10 freaking years?!? Are you kidding me? And the year he's already been in prison counts as time served...

Quote:He was sentenced to the maximum possible term of 21 years and was ordered to serve a minimum of 10 years in prison.

Call me a cynic, but this is not justice. I'm in shock right now that this mass murderer could potentially be out to do the same thing over again in 9-years time. America is not exactly the shining beacon when it comes to laws and justice, but there has got to be something wrong with the Norwegian justice system if that man doesn't serve the rest of his life in prison! I’m actually appalled at this situation; no, more in shock. Even the UN has stricter laws against Nazi’s when caught, and the UN considers itself very humanitarian by modest standards. Well there we go; I already invoked the first law of Godwin, so I guess I should finish this off by saying I’m sure some of those Nazi’s were guilty as sin, but a few of them were merely guilty by association, yet their sentences are far more severe then someone who actually carried out a mass murder with his own hands… I don’t even know what to say.

(08-24-2012, 11:05 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote:

(08-24-2012, 10:36 PM)Ashock Wrote:

(08-24-2012, 08:57 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote: This incident is a perfect example of why I'm a Communist, because the Capitalist system breeds horrible tragedies such as this one.

Hang on a sec. Are you trying to say that commies don't what.... kill people, or they don't just kill certain groups of people, or what exactly?

LOL. You know, this is actually a really good question. Over at revleft.com (radical leftist site I post at), we had a recent discussion there discussing "what happens to Capitalists if we have a successful revolution?" You can read the thread here: http://www.revleft.com/vb/deal-capitalists-after-t174068/index2.html

The fate of the Capitalists and other "reactionaries" would be almost entirely dependent on their actions should we have a successful Proletarian Revolution. The consensus was that if they accepted their loss of power and that they were now just like the rest of us, and that ALL world citizens now controlled the means of production, they would be more than welcome to join in society. In fact, most of us agreed that killing them because they were Capitalists before would only confirm the stereotype that Communists are a bunch of murderers and dictators, and wouldn't reflect well on us even if we were victorious. On the other hand, individuals who were counter-revolutionaries or a threat to the Proletariat would be dealt with, though even that wouldn't necessarily mean killing them. If (and being realistic, more a matter of when) we are directly attacked, then yes, we would probably have to kill those who attacked us, to protect OUR class interests and prevent a reversion back to Capitalism, or something even worse like Fascism. But most of us felt that the average "everyday Capitalist (meaning workers who were Capitalist apologists in Capitalism, rather then the people who were materially Capitalist)" would probably be accepting of Socialism once they saw it actually was beneficial to them, and should thus be integrated into Socialist society like anyone else. The only people who would be really losing anything would be the corporate CEO's, politicians, and such, though most of us agreed that even they shouldn't be punished unless they directly tried to undermine the revolution. Some people felt that the worst of the Capitalists should be punished, though generally by having to live like we did for a while rather then killing them. That being said, the Revolution isn't an act of vengeance and therefore shouldn't be its aim or basis. It is an act of JUSTICE and DEMOCRACY for the overwhelming majority of society, and should therefore be treated as such by the Proletarian.

So, the short answer to your question is that it really depends. But if you notice something, almost all these anti-government, pro nationalist/anti multi cultural, militant groups and individuals belong to some radical right-wing faction. You don't see Communists behaving like this, and for as much as we want revolution, it is because we want to END (or at least greatly reduce) things like the very topic of this thread, among much else. You don't see us going around blowing up abortion clinics, shooting kids because we fear our government is becoming more tolerant of a group of people we dont like, shooting politicians and CEO's (as much as we hate them), and just acting a fool in general. The reason is, we understand the source of the worlds problems (the Capitalist system), and right-wingers simply do NOT (especially not the nationalist, militant types). Afterall, it is much easier to blame minorities, the poor, people of another religion, or anyone who is "different" from the prototype person that reactionaries envision ruling society - than it is to blame the shortcomings of the very system they try to uphold (which ironically, is the cause of many of the problems that reactionaries fear).

Yes, in a revolution, people are going to get hurt, and killed. It sucks. But letting this volatile system continue to exist sucks MUCH more, and it has and will continue to kill, impoverish and destroy the dignity of people far more than the temporary violence of a Socialist revolution.

---

(08-24-2012, 10:52 PM)vor_lord Wrote:

(08-24-2012, 10:36 PM)Ashock Wrote: Hang on a sec. Are you trying to say that commies don't what.... kill people, or they don't just kill certain groups of people, or what exactly?

It's a common defense of an ideologue. Explain any undesirable behavior of an adherent as being outside the proper definition of the ideology.

Christians don't kill people -- if they do, they aren't "true Christians".
Communists don't kill people -- if they do, they aren't "true Communists".
Jedi Knights don't kill people -- if they do, they aren't "true Jedis".

Replace with whatever your ideology is.

The "no true-Scotsman" argument doesn't apply if the original context of something didn't exist or was contradicted. Good try though.

(08-25-2012, 12:09 AM)Ashock Wrote:

(08-24-2012, 11:05 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote:

(08-24-2012, 10:36 PM)Ashock Wrote:

(08-24-2012, 08:57 PM)FireIceTalon Wrote: This incident is a perfect example of why I'm a Communist, because the Capitalist system breeds horrible tragedies such as this one.

Hang on a sec. Are you trying to say that commies don't what.... kill people, or they don't just kill certain groups of people, or what exactly?

LOL. You know, this is actually a really good question. Over at revleft.com (radical leftist site I post at), we had a recent discussion there discussing "what happens to Capitalists if we have a successful revolution?" You can read the thread here: http://www.revleft.com/vb/deal-capitalists-after-t174068/index2.html

The fate of the Capitalists and other "reactionaries" would be almost entirely dependent on their actions should we have a successful Proletarian Revolution. The consensus was that if they accepted their loss of power and that they were now just like the rest of us, and that ALL world citizens now controlled the means of production, they would be more than welcome to join in society. In fact, most of us agreed that killing them because they were Capitalists before would only confirm the stereotype that Communists are a bunch of murderers and dictators, and wouldn't reflect well on us even if we were victorious. On the other hand, individuals who were counter-revolutionaries or a threat to the Proletariat would be dealt with, though even that wouldn't necessarily mean killing them. If (and being realistic, more a matter of when) we are directly attacked, then yes, we would probably have to kill those who attacked us, to protect OUR class interests and prevent a reversion back to Capitalism, or something even worse like Fascism. But most of us felt that the average "everyday Capitalist (meaning workers who were Capitalist apologists in Capitalism, rather then the people who were materially Capitalist)" would probably be accepting of Socialism once they saw it actually was beneficial to them, and should thus be integrated into Socialist society like anyone else. The only people who would be really losing anything would be the corporate CEO's, politicians, and such, though most of us agreed that even they shouldn't be punished unless they directly tried to undermine the revolution. Some people felt that the worst of the Capitalists should be punished, though generally by having to live like we did for a while rather then killing them. That being said, the Revolution isn't an act of vengeance and therefore shouldn't be its aim or basis. It is an act of JUSTICE and DEMOCRACY for the overwhelming majority of society, and should therefore be treated as such by the Proletarian.

So, the short answer to your question is that it really depends. But if you notice something, almost all these anti-government, pro nationalist/anti multi cultural, militant groups and individuals belong to some radical right-wing faction. You don't see Communists behaving like this, and for as much as we want revolution, it is because we want to END (or at least greatly reduce) things like the very topic of this thread, among much else. You don't see us going around blowing up abortion clinics, shooting kids because we fear our government is becoming more tolerant of a group of people we dont like, shooting politicians and CEO's (as much as we hate them), and just acting a fool in general. The reason is, we understand the source of the worlds problems (the Capitalist system), and right-wingers simply do NOT (especially not the nationalist, militant types). Afterall, it is much easier to blame minorities, the poor, people of another religion, or anyone who is "different" from the prototype person that reactionaries envision ruling society - than it is to blame the shortcomings of the very system they try to uphold (which ironically, is the cause of many of the problems that reactionaries fear).

Yes, in a revolution, people are going to get hurt, and killed. It sucks. But letting this volatile system continue to exist sucks MUCH more, and it has and will continue to kill, impoverish and destroy the dignity of people far more than the temporary violence of a Socialist revolution.

---

(08-24-2012, 10:52 PM)vor_lord Wrote:

(08-24-2012, 10:36 PM)Ashock Wrote: Hang on a sec. Are you trying to say that commies don't what.... kill people, or they don't just kill certain groups of people, or what exactly?

It's a common defense of an ideologue. Explain any undesirable behavior of an adherent as being outside the proper definition of the ideology.

Christians don't kill people -- if they do, they aren't "true Christians".
Communists don't kill people -- if they do, they aren't "true Communists".
Jedi Knights don't kill people -- if they do, they aren't "true Jedis".

Replace with whatever your ideology is.

The "no true-Scotsman" argument doesn't apply if the original context of something didn't exist or was contradicted. Good try though.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einsten.

(08-25-2012, 12:09 AM)Ashock Wrote: Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einsten.

(08-25-2012, 12:24 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote: Yea, Capitalists should understand that better than anyone else

and Einstein, btw, was a Socialist

LOL.

(08-25-2012, 12:35 AM)kandrathe Wrote:

(08-25-2012, 12:09 AM)Ashock Wrote: Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einsten.

I remember this philosophy FIT described was the same logic the Bolsheviks professed prior to coming to power.

After they got in power the infighting began, but they labelled them, and had the secret police keep an eye on them. Then, they arrested them for any slight violation, and sent them off to re-education camps, which were administered by Gulag. After a while, they just didn't pretend anymore and shot them outright. It's less of a burden on the state, and more humane than starving them to death. (see NKVD Order No. 00447).

Individual liberty is antithetical to communism. Once you surrender your power, life, and property to the state. They are free to do with it as they please. Why would it surprise us from a system where you own nothing, not even your own your life.

(08-25-2012, 12:40 AM)Ashock Wrote:

(08-25-2012, 12:24 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote: Yea, Capitalists should understand that better than anyone else

and Einstein, btw, was a Socialist

LOL.

*Sigh* Cocaine is a powerful drug.

(08-25-2012, 12:49 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote: I don't do cocaine. But regardless, this retort is basically a concession either I am right, or you have no legitimate argument other than logical fallacies and sarcastic remarks to try and back up your weakly constructed, and presumptuous claims. Or more likely, both.

(08-25-2012, 01:02 AM)Ashock Wrote:

(08-25-2012, 12:49 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote: I don't do cocaine. But regardless, this retort is basically a concession either I am right, or you have no legitimate argument other than logical fallacies and sarcastic remarks to try and back up your weakly constructed, and presumptuous claims. Or more likely, both.

Let me be honest here. You, my fellow Diablo 3 disliker (I just made that term up, like it?), are in need of serious life therapy. As such, I can't really argue with you, just as I do not argue with small children, drunks, the very old or the mentally insane.

Just think about this. Just the thought that you are posting what you posting without being killed, and having everyone you know and hold dear killed, means you know jack about communism.

Enjoy your delusions, it is easier that way. I'm done with this.

ps. Oh sure, you can claim that as I'm backing out of this discussion, means I have no valid argument.
I don't really care.

pps. Any of the admins feel that I am making a personal attack with my initial comment? I also don't care.

ppps. Time to go home. This, I do care about.

(08-25-2012, 12:49 AM)FireIceTalon Wrote: You just described the life of the Proletarian under Capitalism almost perfectly, however. Communism isn't antithetical to individual liberty, it's antithetical to Bourgeois Democracy, where a small group of people who dont work for a living own everything, and where huge amount of people who break their backs to feed their rulers and drive the imperialist war-machine to expand capital (and get only enough in return to survive, so they can be a wage slave another day, since afterall, a dead worker is of no use to a Capitalist).