08-30-2012, 03:03 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-30-2012, 04:21 PM by FireIceTalon.)
(08-30-2012, 10:01 AM)Jester Wrote: Kandrathe, don't waste your breath. Every generation of Marxist revolutionaries has made exactly this same argument: the past revolutions have turned out badly, but that's because they were insufficiently Marxist. If only they'd read what Marx said more carefully. Ours, though, will be different, because we're the real deal. And when it's not? There's no reason the next generation can't use the same argument.
Reminds me of rapture-ready Christians, really. "This time, Jesus is really coming!" You aren't going to be able to talk them out of it. They either grow out of it, or they don't.
-Jester
And yet another argument grounded in Idealism, and one that misrepresents a Marxist perspective and critique of past revolutions. You really sound like a simpleton here.
What you, Kandrathe, and others who support Capitalism don't get is this. Your arguments are based on Idealism, YOUR interpretations of Communism and what YOU want it to be (instead of what Communism IS), and ideology in general. Your critique isn't grounded in an observation of material conditions. It's grounded in semantics, ideology, propaganda, historical revisionism, and in general, bias.
Marxists use a system of analysis based on VERIFIABLE FACTS in a historical context - not ideology - of given material circumstances, to critique and understand systems of class antagonisms - much in the same way scientists use the Scientific Method in the biological and physical science disciplines. And we use it to observe, critique, and explain the shortcomings of what you guys call "Communist States" (LMAO), just as much as we use it to critique and factually observe Capitalism, or any other class system. You critique things based on ideology only, which leads me to....
Comparing Marxists to Christians is just stupid and perfectly shows your arguments rely entirely on ideology, which is subjective, and not objective as any argument should be. Religion is grounded entirely in Idealism, not to mention faith and superstition, and it CANNOT be analyzed, tested, or be verified by any material facts, let alone relevant ones of any point in history. At least Marxism grounds itself in something that can be observed and verified - Materialism.
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"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)