Norway Killer gets 21-Years

[FireIceTalon]

This type of rhetoric maybe works with your Marxist friends and professors. Your "revolution" rests on being understood by the average Teamster. Capitalists have nothing to worry about. Carry on.

Another fallacy of improbability that assumes material conditions will always stay the same, and thus the workers will never gain class consciousness. Sorry to inform you, material conditions can, do, and will change. Capitalists are safe for the moment. But to assume this will always be the case is not only overly deterministic, but also rather arrogant, not mention it flies in the face of history.

More denials and revisionist BS -- The sixth thesis on Feuerbach, and the determination of human nature by social relations -- Karl Marx You really should read what Marx wrote. If I were a solitary entity -- then even if there were a "human nature" it would be entirely my nature -- of course you need "a society" to encompass a "human nature". Wow. {hand wave} There is no such thing as Karl Marx. See, I can do it too. There is no such thing as a class struggle. There is no such thing as a proletariat... It just a word you use to label a group of people.

Two things. Firstly that link more or less says the same thing I did, albeit Marx viewing human nature as being influenced from social and economic conditions, which is more or less the same thing as it being a social construct. Secondly, who says one has to agree word for word, everything Marx wrote (even if one is a Marxist)? Perhaps there is some unwritten rule I missed somewhere?

My view is a pragmatic one. You are confused, because you are actually the idealist here. We have an imperfect society already. You are offering nothing better. The change you propose would be bloody. It depends on every person sharing your viewpoint and ideals -- which frankly will NEVER happen. It just takes one Stalin to muck it up and millions will die. And, we have the communist choice right now -- whether to act collectively, or sell it for money. By far, our choices have been transactional to trade what we have (including our labor) for money or property. Marx's ideas have been around for about 160 years. What societal experiments that were tried peaked 50 years ago, and are in decline.

LMAO. Your view is very much idealist. The change I propose is no more bloody and exploitative than your little Capitalist utopia is, with all its wars in the name of corporatism, oil, and imperialism, not to mention the racist, chauvinistic, xenophobic, patriarch elements that it propagates. In fact, I would venture that my change would be much less so. Capitalism is probably a more evil, vicious, and corrupt system than any other system ever contrived, save for those two F-words: Feudalism and Fascism, though Capitalism in general, almost always leads to the latter of those two, because of its intrinsic flaws and contradictions, and the fact it is prone to crisis. And even if my change is bloody and violent, to that I say, SO THE HELL WHAT. Every other revolution was bloody and dramatic also, yet many of them were necessary, on different levels, for the progression of society or a segment or region of society. The French Revolution, as much as you may deplore it, helped to end Feudalism and create a somewhat better socioeconomic system: your beloved Capitalism. It put a HUGE dent in the power of Monarchs, and for the first time, Republics and Democracies became possibilities. Where it not for that, we would still be living under Feudalism today, likely. You, yourself, and well-being would be tied to the land of which you were a serf.

And there you go again, thinking material conditions will never change by using the word "NEVER". Do you have a crystal ball that none of us do? Also, saying it only takes "one Stalin to muck it up" implies there is party involved, or that the Proletarian doesn't have class consciousness.

Marxism isn't going anywhere, so long as Capitalism exists. Just keep in mind, your little society is actually quite fragile - it takes great State force and lots of propaganda and deceit to keep this system propped up, which is why the ruling class goes through such great efforts to do so.

Your little Capitalist system WON'T last forever. No previous society of class antagonisms has - and demonstrably so.

Regardless, it is laughable to me that you worry so much about Socialist revolution being bloody, when the very system you support is soaked in blood and human suffering of HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS. Go to church man.

You assumed all that from just three sentences? You are a wonder.

"Communist nation" in itself is a huge error, and whenever I hear people say such oxymorons, be they Communists or anti-Communists, I can't help but think they know little about it. *shrugs*

Because rather than look at actual history, we'll have to go along with how you perceive it really should have been.

Actually, that IS looking at actual history. The difference is, you look at history as an Idealist, I do so as a Materialist. To you, Stalinism and Communism are the same - which is an Idealist way of viewing things. It's the same BS rhetoric as the Tea Partiers who call anyone that wants universal healthcare or supports same sex marriage a Socialist, which is a fallacy. Marxism, however, is grounded in MATERIALISM, not Idealism. Thus when we compare the Material conditions of the Stalinist regime, to what Marx and Engels wrote and advocated, the distinctions can easily be made. But you keep sipping the propaganda and Idealist kool-aid.

It's always best to be inflammatory ALL THE TIME. It definitely rallies people to your cause.

It's not being inflammatory or pompous, I am sorry you see it that way. I'm just stating a fact. Nevertheless, you support the Capitalist system, and Capitalism is reactionary. Now, if we go back to 1789, Capitalism wasn't reactionary back then, however it is now.

Please link your published and widely recognized manifesto, and then I will accord you due credit. I'm an artist. My sculptures are better than Michelangelo, really. You just need to take my word for it.

So, I need to have written a book in order to be a Communist now? Are you for real?

If the USSR wasn't communist, then by the same reasoning, the USA isn't capitalist. There are merely capitalists living here. Again, you are confused. Antony Flew's original coining of the term was in reference to a murder. No true Scotsman would do such a thing. Ergo, do communists kill? Obviously, yes. Do Christian kill? Obviously, yes. You can claim that x, y, z were not "True" communist states, but they are claiming it and most people accept it as true. Surely, Catholics would love to disclaim the Spanish Inquisition as well. What good is denial?

Just, no man. I've seen this argument too many times, and too many times exposed it for the BS that it is. Capitalism and Communism are both material conditions of society that have intrinsic properties that are necessary for their material existence. The material properties necessary for Communism have never existed anywhere in the world. The material properties for Capitalism, however, DO exist in the US, and in many other places. I am not confused, I understand the whole thing quite well in fact.

And as I stated before, I could care less if said nation states are "claiming Communism". Fuck them and their Idealism. Materially they are not and have never been Communist. This is why we can't go by what people claim, and we must observe things in a material context. America claims to be a Democracy all the time, but it has one of the sharpest class distinctions on the planet. Materialism is based on objective and verifiable FACTS that can be physically, historically or socially observed. Idealism is grounded in perception, which is very subjective.

It would appear, according to Merriam-Webster, that both Bob and Bill do not know what they are talking about.

I will take Marx and Engels definition over the very slanted and subjective based definitions of Merriam-Webster, which was also known for stating that the color white was innocent and pure and that black was dark and foreboding - racist overtones. In the past anyway, not sure about now.