I would like to go back to the subject topic at hand. Discussing leisure vs competitive playing styles wasn't really my intention at all, and if there's one thing I hate about discussions, it's when they slowly drift further and further away from the core subject till you just stop for a moment and wonder what the point was.
The subject at hand being the Party XP bonus, and it's pros and cons.
Pros that I have seen mentioned in this thread
1) This is a multiplayer game, encouraging people to play in parties, rather than isolating themselves, is a good thing.
2) Playing with other people is fun, therefore it should naturally be encouraged.
3) Playing in parties complicate matters for PK's, which is a good thing, which makes encouraging parties a good thing.
That's really what I picked up before this thread drifted away into a different subject.
Me countering these pros:
1) I do not think that what this Party XP bonus has encouraged is what people like to think it is. It has not encouraged people to play co-operatively, it has not encouraged people to work together as a team, it hasn't even encouraged people to play together. What it has done is encouraged people to click a button and magically receive extra experience, mostly for monsters which they took no part in slaying. It has encouraged people to click on the party button upon entering a game, but it has not encouraged any of the elements that actually make parties a good thing.
2) Why is playing with other people fun? Because of the co-operation, because of the chance of working as a team and trying out interesting combinations, because of the chance to meet nice people to play with. Has the Party XP Bonus encouraged any of this? No, I have, despite what some people might think of my preferences after reading my posts, taken part in a great deal of party play, both in Classic and in LoD. The first type is one that I have never enjoyed - Sewer runs, Arcane runs, Bloody runs, Cow runs - Exping parties that is. In those parties, I have never found what I am looking for in a good party: Nice players whose company you can enjoy, players working together as a team, players respecting one-another and attempting to co-operate and realizing that the best thing for me might not be the best thing for the team. In exping parties, not only do people not co-operate, they don't even play together, they mostly don't even play in the same part of the map (this particular problem is the only one that will be fixed by the v1.10 patch, yet it is but one of many problems with v1.09 "party play").
The other type, is party play that I have enjoyed. Parties in which I met nice people, sometimes complete strangers, but yet people you could converse and joke with as you were playing. Parties where co-operation and team-play were priorities for all involved, parties where everyone strived towards a common goal. Do you even need to guess what type of party these usually were? They were questing parties, they were parties consisting of your friends, they were exping parties where thought actually went into the tactics and skill combinations that were used, where people played for each-other, and not just for themselves. In short, they were parties which rewarded themselves, the only kind of parties that existed in D2C, parties in which a gross XP bonus was not needed to give it's members a good gaming experience.
So I'll say this, parties in themselves are not fun, not when you strip away all it's good aspects. Stripping away the good aspects of party play is exactly what the bonus experience has done. By this, I do not mean that all party play has gone bad because of the PXPB, but that while it certainly increased the frequency of parties, it did not increase the frequency of the elements that make party play what it should be. Ask yourself how many really good party experiences that you have had in LoD, were good as a direct result of the increased experience gains? I know what my answer would be, zero.
3) This is a valid point, from a certain viewpoint. Personally I have no problem with legit PK'ing and consider playerhunting as valid a playing style as the next (no I'm not going into that subject again), and thus I do not see the good in preventing PK'ing. Cheap tricks and unlawful playerhunting such as Triggerhacks and Hydra PK'ing is of course a bad thing, but not something that playing in a party does much about.
Cons with the PXPB, brought up mostly by myself.
1) The PXPB is the sole cause of the leeches that flood Battle.net. It is also indirectly responsible for the vastly increased demand for rushing, since getting rushed through the game would be pointless if there would be no way you could survive in Hell with a lvl 20 char. The leech is the D2 equivalent of the real-world healthy social welfare abuser. Only in D2, people have a choice not to give these abusers a free ride through life, but choose to do it anyway since it comes at no cost for themselves. It sickens me really.
2) The PXPB has eliminated the need for the once so complex tactical decisions and executions of strategy involved in making a successful party. There is no longer any need to weigh drawbacks with benefits when creating a party or deciding how to play, because there aren't any drawbacks any longer. Because people gain roughly the same amount of experience per monster no matter the size of their parties, there is no longer any need to co-operate, no need to try and combine skills for greater effect and work as a team, and when you don't need to do something, people as a rule, will not do it. Public game party play as of v1.09 consists of getting 8 random people to all click their buttons, go to the same area, and then go and do whatever they want. People will argue that things will be different in v1.10, that the new difficulty will not only be an incentive to party up, but to actually do all these things that I think party play should involve. But if this will be the case, why would we even need the PXPB? We don't, and we never did. It has never encouraged party play, it has encouraged pathetic and hollow excuses for parties which contain none of the elements which makes true team-play so good.
Counter-arguments to my cons.
1) v1.10 contains many changes and restrictions which makes it harder to leech, and close to impossible to be rushed. None of these changes will completely eliminate either problem, but it is good enough for me. An all-out elimination wont be needed if v1.10 can reduce the amount of leeching and rushing to the degree it has promised.
Another popular, but useless argument, is that it's better to ignore and avoid a problem rather than try to solve it.
2) I haven't seen any attempt to counter this yet.
Counter-counter-arguments to my cons
1) v1.10 will, as I've already said, will not provide a perfect solution to either problem. What v1.10 does is implenting a whole slew of restrictions that is meant to hinder rushing and leeching. The rushing deterrants seem to be the most effective ones, though I have no doubt that people will find loop-holes. The leeching deterrants however, look to be nowhere near as effective. What the two-screen limit will do is force leeches to be a bit more active and expose themselves to an ever so slight risk, I have no doubt that leeches will adjust to this change in no-time. This will also actually increase the number of leeches who will not only clutter up your screen while they run around, trying to avoid danger, but also steal your loot. The level-difference experience penalty will slow down the leeches mad rush through the clvl's, but not in any way deter it.
These changes, like most of the suggestions I've seen in this thread, are not ultimate solutions, and loop-holes will be found to go around these restrictions, they will most likely also cause new problems of their own. They're akin to trying to stop a leaking water pipe with thousands of small holes by plugging them, instead of simply stopping the water flow, you'll never be able to plug all the holes, and a new one will likely burst out as soon as you plug another.
The bottom line is: Party play should be it's own reward. When it's not, you're better off not partying. When it is, you don't need the Party XP Bonus.
The subject at hand being the Party XP bonus, and it's pros and cons.
Pros that I have seen mentioned in this thread
1) This is a multiplayer game, encouraging people to play in parties, rather than isolating themselves, is a good thing.
2) Playing with other people is fun, therefore it should naturally be encouraged.
3) Playing in parties complicate matters for PK's, which is a good thing, which makes encouraging parties a good thing.
That's really what I picked up before this thread drifted away into a different subject.
Me countering these pros:
1) I do not think that what this Party XP bonus has encouraged is what people like to think it is. It has not encouraged people to play co-operatively, it has not encouraged people to work together as a team, it hasn't even encouraged people to play together. What it has done is encouraged people to click a button and magically receive extra experience, mostly for monsters which they took no part in slaying. It has encouraged people to click on the party button upon entering a game, but it has not encouraged any of the elements that actually make parties a good thing.
2) Why is playing with other people fun? Because of the co-operation, because of the chance of working as a team and trying out interesting combinations, because of the chance to meet nice people to play with. Has the Party XP Bonus encouraged any of this? No, I have, despite what some people might think of my preferences after reading my posts, taken part in a great deal of party play, both in Classic and in LoD. The first type is one that I have never enjoyed - Sewer runs, Arcane runs, Bloody runs, Cow runs - Exping parties that is. In those parties, I have never found what I am looking for in a good party: Nice players whose company you can enjoy, players working together as a team, players respecting one-another and attempting to co-operate and realizing that the best thing for me might not be the best thing for the team. In exping parties, not only do people not co-operate, they don't even play together, they mostly don't even play in the same part of the map (this particular problem is the only one that will be fixed by the v1.10 patch, yet it is but one of many problems with v1.09 "party play").
The other type, is party play that I have enjoyed. Parties in which I met nice people, sometimes complete strangers, but yet people you could converse and joke with as you were playing. Parties where co-operation and team-play were priorities for all involved, parties where everyone strived towards a common goal. Do you even need to guess what type of party these usually were? They were questing parties, they were parties consisting of your friends, they were exping parties where thought actually went into the tactics and skill combinations that were used, where people played for each-other, and not just for themselves. In short, they were parties which rewarded themselves, the only kind of parties that existed in D2C, parties in which a gross XP bonus was not needed to give it's members a good gaming experience.
So I'll say this, parties in themselves are not fun, not when you strip away all it's good aspects. Stripping away the good aspects of party play is exactly what the bonus experience has done. By this, I do not mean that all party play has gone bad because of the PXPB, but that while it certainly increased the frequency of parties, it did not increase the frequency of the elements that make party play what it should be. Ask yourself how many really good party experiences that you have had in LoD, were good as a direct result of the increased experience gains? I know what my answer would be, zero.
3) This is a valid point, from a certain viewpoint. Personally I have no problem with legit PK'ing and consider playerhunting as valid a playing style as the next (no I'm not going into that subject again), and thus I do not see the good in preventing PK'ing. Cheap tricks and unlawful playerhunting such as Triggerhacks and Hydra PK'ing is of course a bad thing, but not something that playing in a party does much about.
Cons with the PXPB, brought up mostly by myself.
1) The PXPB is the sole cause of the leeches that flood Battle.net. It is also indirectly responsible for the vastly increased demand for rushing, since getting rushed through the game would be pointless if there would be no way you could survive in Hell with a lvl 20 char. The leech is the D2 equivalent of the real-world healthy social welfare abuser. Only in D2, people have a choice not to give these abusers a free ride through life, but choose to do it anyway since it comes at no cost for themselves. It sickens me really.
2) The PXPB has eliminated the need for the once so complex tactical decisions and executions of strategy involved in making a successful party. There is no longer any need to weigh drawbacks with benefits when creating a party or deciding how to play, because there aren't any drawbacks any longer. Because people gain roughly the same amount of experience per monster no matter the size of their parties, there is no longer any need to co-operate, no need to try and combine skills for greater effect and work as a team, and when you don't need to do something, people as a rule, will not do it. Public game party play as of v1.09 consists of getting 8 random people to all click their buttons, go to the same area, and then go and do whatever they want. People will argue that things will be different in v1.10, that the new difficulty will not only be an incentive to party up, but to actually do all these things that I think party play should involve. But if this will be the case, why would we even need the PXPB? We don't, and we never did. It has never encouraged party play, it has encouraged pathetic and hollow excuses for parties which contain none of the elements which makes true team-play so good.
Counter-arguments to my cons.
1) v1.10 contains many changes and restrictions which makes it harder to leech, and close to impossible to be rushed. None of these changes will completely eliminate either problem, but it is good enough for me. An all-out elimination wont be needed if v1.10 can reduce the amount of leeching and rushing to the degree it has promised.
Another popular, but useless argument, is that it's better to ignore and avoid a problem rather than try to solve it.
2) I haven't seen any attempt to counter this yet.
Counter-counter-arguments to my cons
1) v1.10 will, as I've already said, will not provide a perfect solution to either problem. What v1.10 does is implenting a whole slew of restrictions that is meant to hinder rushing and leeching. The rushing deterrants seem to be the most effective ones, though I have no doubt that people will find loop-holes. The leeching deterrants however, look to be nowhere near as effective. What the two-screen limit will do is force leeches to be a bit more active and expose themselves to an ever so slight risk, I have no doubt that leeches will adjust to this change in no-time. This will also actually increase the number of leeches who will not only clutter up your screen while they run around, trying to avoid danger, but also steal your loot. The level-difference experience penalty will slow down the leeches mad rush through the clvl's, but not in any way deter it.
These changes, like most of the suggestions I've seen in this thread, are not ultimate solutions, and loop-holes will be found to go around these restrictions, they will most likely also cause new problems of their own. They're akin to trying to stop a leaking water pipe with thousands of small holes by plugging them, instead of simply stopping the water flow, you'll never be able to plug all the holes, and a new one will likely burst out as soon as you plug another.
The bottom line is: Party play should be it's own reward. When it's not, you're better off not partying. When it is, you don't need the Party XP Bonus.
In my mind, my dreams are real. No one's concerned about the way I feel.