05-31-2012, 05:09 AM
(This post was last modified: 05-31-2012, 05:16 AM by MongoJerry.)
Hi, Sirian. Thank-you for giving the issue some thought, but I don't think your first post in this thread really added much information to the discussion. Your post basically boils down to "the Melee classes need a lot of fixing to make them viable and fun in the higher difficulties," and I think most people's response will be "Yeah, we know."
What really needs to happen now is a serious discussion of how the situation can be fixed. I do think the current classes form a good base on which to build. The question now is how can they be altered to make them better -- both in their survivability and in their gameplay?
So, let's first talk about the more "successful" ranged classes. And, since I've been playing a Wizard and know more about them, I'll talk about the Wizard specifically. Why is the Wizard successful in Inferno? I don't mean just why can they kill monsters. I mean, why is the gameplay itself fun? Playing a Wizard solo in Inferno means kiting. Players who play melee characters sometimes use phrases like "Wizards can just kite the mobs" as if it were easy. It's not easy. Kiting is a very intense process, where you have to be constantly aware of your surroundings and be ready to counter all of the crowd control abilities that champion and boss packs throw at you. I know when I'm done kiting a big boss pack, I let out a huge sigh relieving all of the stress of the previous couple of minutes. That's a sign of good gameplay to me.
But there's another issue with kiting that I think people often forget about. No spell can be cast while running. Thus, every moment you are running, your dps drops like a rock. If I had to guess, I would say that a Wizard typically does half to one-third the dps while kiting that he or she does when he or she is able to stand still and unload. (Hydra is a somewhat exception to this rule in that at least it deals some dps while you are running around, but even with Hydra, the amount of dps the Wizard can deal is still far less than if the Wizard is able to stand still and deliver attacks unimpeded). The Wizard has to second by second decide if he or she can safely get a shot off. The more the Wizard runs, the less dps he or she deals. The less the Wizard runs, the more dps the Wizard deals but the more risk the Wizard takes on as well.
So we have to keep both of these factors in mind -- fun gameplay and dps/killing speed -- when we are talking about possible solutions to the melee dilemma.
BAD SOLUTION #1: Simply give the melee classes more damage mitigation so that they can just stand there and tank a group of champion and boss packs. This is a bad idea on two fronts. First, the gameplay would stink. The person would just stand there and smash a few buttons until everything died with no situational awareness required. There wouldn't be any moving needed or stategic planning needed. Just as bad, if nothing happened to the melee players' dps output, that would mean that their killing speed would completely outstrip the killing speed of ranged classes. That's because the melee classes could just stand there and use all of their special damage skills, while ranged classes would have to continue to constantly fight on the run. Thus, this solution would end up with a class that is both invincible and a high killing speed class. This is a bad solution.
BAD SOLUTION #2: Increase the damage mitigation for melee but greatly reduce their ability to dps. This is essentially the WoW tank solution, where someone in a party chooses to focus on damage mitigation and surrender dps output in the process. But, this is a bad idea simply for gameplay reasons. D3 is not WoW. WoW is designed with parties in mind, while D3 is a semi-solo game. I think that most people playing melee classes in D3 would hate playing a tanking style class -- even more than most players playing melee classes in WoW hate having to tank. Besides, the gameplay would still be boring -- just stand there and mash buttons until something finally dies.
GOOD SOLUTION: ?
I don't have a cure-all specific solution, but I do have the beginnings of some ideas. I think the general solution revolves around improving the crowd control abilities. First of all, why is it that barbarian stuns have such short durations in the later difficulties? You have these great skills that are so useful in Normal and Nightmare and suddenly they become nothing more than "interrupts" as Bolty puts them in the late difficulties? That's just silly. If the listed stun durations are too long for late difficulties, then adjust their lengths down but make them consistent across all difficulties.
One possible specific solution I'll put out there is to change one rune in Ground Stomp to make it have this effect: Increases radius to 24 yards, stuns enemies for 4 seconds (even in Inferno), but only has a 50% chance to affect a mob.
This may sounds strange, but think about it. If half of the mobs are stunned, then you could use that four seconds to lead the ones that aren't stunned away. Thus, the Barbarian can string out a pack of mobs and over time (it may take a few casts over a long boss/champion fight) isolate one or two minions that the Barbarian can then take down. Thus, you end up creating a kind of Barbarian version of kiting. This gameplay would be intense, you wouldn't have to buff damage mitigation, and the dps would suffer during the process of isolating mobs -- just the way that the dps of ranges classes suffer while they're kiting.
So, there you go. There's one suggestion I have. Feel free to criticize it, if you wish. But more importantly, please make some other suggestions that would make for fun gameplay and would be balanced with the other classes in the game.
What really needs to happen now is a serious discussion of how the situation can be fixed. I do think the current classes form a good base on which to build. The question now is how can they be altered to make them better -- both in their survivability and in their gameplay?
So, let's first talk about the more "successful" ranged classes. And, since I've been playing a Wizard and know more about them, I'll talk about the Wizard specifically. Why is the Wizard successful in Inferno? I don't mean just why can they kill monsters. I mean, why is the gameplay itself fun? Playing a Wizard solo in Inferno means kiting. Players who play melee characters sometimes use phrases like "Wizards can just kite the mobs" as if it were easy. It's not easy. Kiting is a very intense process, where you have to be constantly aware of your surroundings and be ready to counter all of the crowd control abilities that champion and boss packs throw at you. I know when I'm done kiting a big boss pack, I let out a huge sigh relieving all of the stress of the previous couple of minutes. That's a sign of good gameplay to me.
But there's another issue with kiting that I think people often forget about. No spell can be cast while running. Thus, every moment you are running, your dps drops like a rock. If I had to guess, I would say that a Wizard typically does half to one-third the dps while kiting that he or she does when he or she is able to stand still and unload. (Hydra is a somewhat exception to this rule in that at least it deals some dps while you are running around, but even with Hydra, the amount of dps the Wizard can deal is still far less than if the Wizard is able to stand still and deliver attacks unimpeded). The Wizard has to second by second decide if he or she can safely get a shot off. The more the Wizard runs, the less dps he or she deals. The less the Wizard runs, the more dps the Wizard deals but the more risk the Wizard takes on as well.
So we have to keep both of these factors in mind -- fun gameplay and dps/killing speed -- when we are talking about possible solutions to the melee dilemma.
BAD SOLUTION #1: Simply give the melee classes more damage mitigation so that they can just stand there and tank a group of champion and boss packs. This is a bad idea on two fronts. First, the gameplay would stink. The person would just stand there and smash a few buttons until everything died with no situational awareness required. There wouldn't be any moving needed or stategic planning needed. Just as bad, if nothing happened to the melee players' dps output, that would mean that their killing speed would completely outstrip the killing speed of ranged classes. That's because the melee classes could just stand there and use all of their special damage skills, while ranged classes would have to continue to constantly fight on the run. Thus, this solution would end up with a class that is both invincible and a high killing speed class. This is a bad solution.
BAD SOLUTION #2: Increase the damage mitigation for melee but greatly reduce their ability to dps. This is essentially the WoW tank solution, where someone in a party chooses to focus on damage mitigation and surrender dps output in the process. But, this is a bad idea simply for gameplay reasons. D3 is not WoW. WoW is designed with parties in mind, while D3 is a semi-solo game. I think that most people playing melee classes in D3 would hate playing a tanking style class -- even more than most players playing melee classes in WoW hate having to tank. Besides, the gameplay would still be boring -- just stand there and mash buttons until something finally dies.
GOOD SOLUTION: ?
I don't have a cure-all specific solution, but I do have the beginnings of some ideas. I think the general solution revolves around improving the crowd control abilities. First of all, why is it that barbarian stuns have such short durations in the later difficulties? You have these great skills that are so useful in Normal and Nightmare and suddenly they become nothing more than "interrupts" as Bolty puts them in the late difficulties? That's just silly. If the listed stun durations are too long for late difficulties, then adjust their lengths down but make them consistent across all difficulties.
One possible specific solution I'll put out there is to change one rune in Ground Stomp to make it have this effect: Increases radius to 24 yards, stuns enemies for 4 seconds (even in Inferno), but only has a 50% chance to affect a mob.
This may sounds strange, but think about it. If half of the mobs are stunned, then you could use that four seconds to lead the ones that aren't stunned away. Thus, the Barbarian can string out a pack of mobs and over time (it may take a few casts over a long boss/champion fight) isolate one or two minions that the Barbarian can then take down. Thus, you end up creating a kind of Barbarian version of kiting. This gameplay would be intense, you wouldn't have to buff damage mitigation, and the dps would suffer during the process of isolating mobs -- just the way that the dps of ranges classes suffer while they're kiting.
So, there you go. There's one suggestion I have. Feel free to criticize it, if you wish. But more importantly, please make some other suggestions that would make for fun gameplay and would be balanced with the other classes in the game.