God forbid we use science

[Jester]

Yes, but we are talking about people and their beliefs. Not a church membership list, or those churches that have joined an association. In the context of the NAE, the concept of "evangelical" means that the denomination embraces the concept of Christians sharing their faith with others (being open about what they believe), and sometimes also proselytizing (actively seeking to convert people outside the sect or religion). So what I am saying is that Baptists may be evangelical, but not all Baptists are evangelical.

... and no matter how you slice it, it adds up to a heck of a lot more than half a percent.

It is more worthwhile then to ask people what they believe, rather than telling them what to believe based on which church they attend(ed). When you blame the impetus for abstinence education on evangelicals (using the broad brush strokes), to me that is akin to blaming the impetus for fascism on Italians or Germans.

Being Italian and being German are not chosen. Nor are they belief systems. Being an Evangelical Christian is both.

Far be it from me to blame them exclusively. Fundamentalists of all creeds are on board to put this particular bit of religiosity into American schools. If fundamentalist Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Muslims, Quakers, Shakers, Candlestick-Makers, or whatevers are supporting the Evangelicals in this, then they are all to blame. It's just that the Evangelicals are the largest group, the most vocal, and the best organized.

Some evangelicals probably do believe in abstinence only education, but not all of them and maybe not even a majority of them.

Maybe not a majority. Maybe a majority. Probably, around half of them, with most of the other half being "no opinions", and a handful of "against". It would be interesting to see statistics on the matter, but one doesn't need detailed data to figure out that abstinence-only is primarily by, of and for Evangelicals (going with the 25% number.)

What we need is a survey of people who believe in abstinence-only education for all age groups. When you say " If it makes you feel differently about the argument, substitute "fundamentalist" for "evangelical" in my previous statements. It's just semantics, really." then I think we agree that there is really no accurate way to predict who is an evangelical unless you survey people about their beliefs on both evangelicalism, or fundamentalism, or being born-again and also then ask them about their views on abstinence only education in schools across various age groups.

Yes. Quite difficult to say *exactly* who is an Evangelical. Much easier to say it's about 25% of people, by most reasonable definitions one could write. Rather deceptive to say it's 0.5%. Unless you pick a totally unreasonable definition, there's no way that number is even close.

About half of Americans describe themselves as "born again." Does that mean 50% are Evangelicals? That's not a totally unreasonable description, but probably not selective enough. About half of those self-describe as belonging to a faith that is Evangelical, broadly speaking. I would say that's a perfectly appropriate broad definition, which yields about 28%. Still probably a little high, but pretty close. I think my number is a perfectly accurate ballpark figure, and in any case, perfectly describes the group of people I was initially talking about, whatever you personally care to take "Evangelical" to mean.

Based on the number of Christians who do opt out of public education, I would guess they object to more than just the sex education program.

There is a whole laundry list. Needless to say, I don't find much on it very admirable. Seems to me more like indoctrination than education.

Here is a good link to a healthy approach to the topic. Center for AIDS Prevention Studies -- and I notice they are politically astute enough to not point their fingers at any one group of people.

Good thing I'm not running for office, so I don't have to be politically astute. I get to call it like I see it.

What was presented there seems like a reasonable opinion on sexual educaton. One might point out that it is almost entirely in line with what Barack Obama has been saying, and totally contrary to Mitt Romney's opinion on the matter.

I especially like this quote:

Delivery of politically palatable-rather than effective-curricula may serve the interest of adults, but will cheat many young people.

Education that focuses on the effective education of the children, and not the will of the parents. T'would be nice.

I think the topic is as complicated as they alude, abstinence education makes sense for 12 year olds, but for a high school senior it probably does not make sense.

Abstinence-only education is a code phrase. Telling kids that they should probably hold on a few years before having sex at age 12 is fine and good, but it's not what people mean when they say "abstinence-only". Every program does, and should, include abstinence as one effective option for ensuring safety. What abstinence-only programs do is ensure the kids "learn" a series of lies about other options to ensure a standard of "moral purity" that the government has no business at all enforcing, through education or otherwise.

The Penn and Teller 'Bulls%$t' episode on the topic is fun, and not a little disturbing, unless one likes the idea of saccharine lies.

So, an anecdote for you... My dearly departed Dad, who was a red necked protestant Christian blue collar truck driver and voted a straight Democratic ticket his entire life believed that to teach high school aged children about sex was like handing a running chain saw to a five year old. He would not have described himself as an "Evangelical", even though he believed in evangelism.

On the issue of Voting Democratic, the rise of the Republican party as the party of religion is fairly recent, mostly a part of the reinvention during the Reagan era. Look at the voting patterns in the Baptist South, through time. That tells the story right there. People whose opinions were formed prior to that time do not necessarily form a representative sample for the modern political scene. Even then, an individual is not a demographic. It is the collective behaviour of people that is of interest here, not whether any given person votes this way or that.

I think the word "Evangelical" as used in the US today (and how you seemed to use it) to describe a conservative right wing Republican religious movement characterized by Bob Jones University, Jerry Falwell, and the Trinity Broadcasting Network.

And those people, and those who subscribe to similar beliefs, make up (give or take, depending on the definition) 25% of the population of the United States. I'm still not seeing how your initial disagreement clarifies anything, or meaningfully contradicts what I have said.

Although evangelicals are currently seen as being on the Christian Right in the United States, there are those in the center and Christian Left as well.

Yes. They just happen to lean very strongly to the right. We'll see when that changes. I don't think it will be very soon.

-Jester