08-19-2006, 04:44 AM
I think there are two separate themes to your dissatisfaction - aesthetics and gameplay
I also think there's a solution that I'd ask you to consider
Firstly have a look at this post and this quote, forget for the moment about what you need to do and be to get to this point but look at the gameplay these players experience:
The Four Horsemen - EU version
http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.asp...tmp=1#post90517
Sword_of_Doom's description of top end raiding
http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/index.p...opic=8383&st=60
While you are quite correct there is no gameplay that's interesting once you've been 60 a few weeks without raiding or pvping both these threads taken together show a radically different game to the one you've described. A game that engages tactically minded players to the full extent of their capabilities
So I don't think you are correct to speak of a "bad game". There is a good game in there somewhere but it is poorly accessible
The look of Felwood/Plaguelands and other aesthetic considerations is an issue which recedes if you raid. I've just reached Blackwing Lair which has a very interesting and unique look. Zul Gurrub is gorgeous and tanking Hakkar, a mob the size of a small Alpine country, in front of 19 other people was a terrific experience both visually and for gameplay. (Molten Core though strongly and disappointingly looks like Ragefire Chasm)
On to randomisation of items and I think you draw an incorrect conclusion from D2. D2 rares were not a peak of excellence that was reached and then retreated from for no reason. In D2, even amongst the relatively cultured crowd of the Amazon Basin most players preferred uniques to rares and outside the Basin people much preferred uniques. Yellows were simply left on the floor. Most players don't like having to figure out the maths of whether Attacker takes damage of 3 and +2 strength is better than +3 dexterity. Randomisation of important stats on items like Vampiregaze simply led most players to perceive "great gazes" and "crap gazes" and was possibly an incentive to dupe. Duping aside if a player perceives only the top 20% of Gazes as acceptable it effectively makes a rare item 5 times rarer
Is it boring that everyone has the same items? Well I think the truth is that only a handful of people have the latest amazing item and they stand out more for the uniformity. If everyone else has one or two weapons but I have the amazing Dark Edge of Insanity that drops off Cthun I stand out much more
Now to bring the two themes together - it's all about raiding. You won't see Blackwing Lair and Naxx if you don't raid, you won't swagger around Ironforge with Dark Edge of Insanity if you don't raid and you won't access the genuinely interesting content that pushes you to play at your absolute best without raiding
I think the man who dissected Diablo 1 so effectively would really enjoy the analytical challenge of high end raiding (for instance the Four Horseman issues discussed in the quoted thread)
So raid. Go on, before your time runs out get involved with someone and start raiding
Let me talk now about the barriers to raiding. The first is that you are dependent on someone else's authority and schedule (unless you lead your own guild which I don't advise you to do). Next when you start raiding you will play with a lot of slackers. People who are afk and make the other 39 wait. People who needlessly die because they couldn't be bothered to get runecloth for bandages before they came. People who die twice and announce they're all red and arrangements have to be made for them to repair. That's very frustrating but it does get better. Then there's stupid arguments over loot and outraged attention-seeking drama from childish people
Most of that does get burned away as you progress - the further your raid guild goes the more congenial the people are to play with (big generalisation but usually true I think)
I took a long time to find a raiding guild and spent a lot of time at 60 not in one. I've eventually found one I'm happy with and I'm really enjoying this game now
Well I hope you give it a try. I think the game you want is hidden deep within the social morasse of end game raid guilds but that it is available to you if you seek it out
Regards
Brista
I also think there's a solution that I'd ask you to consider
Firstly have a look at this post and this quote, forget for the moment about what you need to do and be to get to this point but look at the gameplay these players experience:
The Four Horsemen - EU version
http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.asp...tmp=1#post90517
Sword_of_Doom's description of top end raiding
http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/index.p...opic=8383&st=60
Quote:I am going to attempt to describe to you a fight in Naxxramas, Maexxna, from a Mage and Priest perspective(i have the rare ability to play 2 characters in a Tier 3 zone. Its a long story so i won't get into if you are curious why)
Priest perspective
Maexxna is a large spider at the end of the Spider Wing in Naxxramas. There are multiple things going on in this fight that involve multiple groups. My role as a Priest is wall healing. One of the abilities of Maexxna is to randomly throw 3 people on her spider web (takes up about half the room) at set times. I say random because other than the MT, Maexxna can grab any of the other 39 and throw them on the wall. Now the placement on the wall can be anywhere you see web. Sometimes there are line of sight issues. So i have my game camera pulled as far out as possible to scan the wall. Generally we set it up so we have 4 healers on Wall duty so that there is no gap in coverage. The people on the wall are web wrapped and that web wrap does tick damage until they are dead. Usually you only have a short amount of time to kill the web wrap and get them off the wall. So we usually have Hunters and Warlocks with the healers taking people off the wall (i think the web wrap is about 6k or so of HP). My job is to try to get a PW: S on them as well as renews and Flash heals. If i have to heal 2 people or even 3 people on the wall then decisions have to made. Generally i heal cloth first and then leather, mail and Plate. I also have to move in range of my group because every 45 seconds (i could be wrong on the time) the whole raid gets web wrapped taking 2000 damage each. Its quite important i get a Prayer of Heal off before i go back on wall duty so everyone is healed up. If i miss somebody and they get tossed on the wall they DIE. This is one of the most fun and hectic fight i have experienced in WoW. There are multiple things going on with multiple choices. I am CLEARLY NOT JUST CLICKING TWO BUTTONS and calling it a day. My decisions are important and i take great pride in keeping everyone alive on the Web wall.
Mage Perspective
Being able to play a characters with offensive and defensive abilities has given me somewhat of a unique look at this game. I love playing a Mage on the Maexxna fight just as much as my Priest. Maexxna has many abilities with some described in the Priest summary. But my duty as a Mage is to DPS Maexxna as well as take care of spider adds. At set times from the belly of Maexxna a number of spider adds are dropped onto the raid. You only have about 5 or 6 seconds to kill them because after those 5 or 6 seconds the whole raid is web wrapped for 3 or 4 seconds and takes 2000 damage each. If there is a loose spider add they generally go to the healers and kill them. So generally i have my V button clicked to bring up name plates and i wait until the spider adds are dropped from Maexxna's belly. Once they are dropped i frost nova, Cone of Cold and then Arcane Explosion them. Sometimes i need to move around to catch one that has somehow managed to get outside of the AE. Then i go back to DPS'ing Maexxna. My Mage is definitely not as active as my Priest on this encounter but my job still is important and can be stressful.
While you are quite correct there is no gameplay that's interesting once you've been 60 a few weeks without raiding or pvping both these threads taken together show a radically different game to the one you've described. A game that engages tactically minded players to the full extent of their capabilities
So I don't think you are correct to speak of a "bad game". There is a good game in there somewhere but it is poorly accessible
The look of Felwood/Plaguelands and other aesthetic considerations is an issue which recedes if you raid. I've just reached Blackwing Lair which has a very interesting and unique look. Zul Gurrub is gorgeous and tanking Hakkar, a mob the size of a small Alpine country, in front of 19 other people was a terrific experience both visually and for gameplay. (Molten Core though strongly and disappointingly looks like Ragefire Chasm)
On to randomisation of items and I think you draw an incorrect conclusion from D2. D2 rares were not a peak of excellence that was reached and then retreated from for no reason. In D2, even amongst the relatively cultured crowd of the Amazon Basin most players preferred uniques to rares and outside the Basin people much preferred uniques. Yellows were simply left on the floor. Most players don't like having to figure out the maths of whether Attacker takes damage of 3 and +2 strength is better than +3 dexterity. Randomisation of important stats on items like Vampiregaze simply led most players to perceive "great gazes" and "crap gazes" and was possibly an incentive to dupe. Duping aside if a player perceives only the top 20% of Gazes as acceptable it effectively makes a rare item 5 times rarer
Is it boring that everyone has the same items? Well I think the truth is that only a handful of people have the latest amazing item and they stand out more for the uniformity. If everyone else has one or two weapons but I have the amazing Dark Edge of Insanity that drops off Cthun I stand out much more
Now to bring the two themes together - it's all about raiding. You won't see Blackwing Lair and Naxx if you don't raid, you won't swagger around Ironforge with Dark Edge of Insanity if you don't raid and you won't access the genuinely interesting content that pushes you to play at your absolute best without raiding
I think the man who dissected Diablo 1 so effectively would really enjoy the analytical challenge of high end raiding (for instance the Four Horseman issues discussed in the quoted thread)
So raid. Go on, before your time runs out get involved with someone and start raiding
Let me talk now about the barriers to raiding. The first is that you are dependent on someone else's authority and schedule (unless you lead your own guild which I don't advise you to do). Next when you start raiding you will play with a lot of slackers. People who are afk and make the other 39 wait. People who needlessly die because they couldn't be bothered to get runecloth for bandages before they came. People who die twice and announce they're all red and arrangements have to be made for them to repair. That's very frustrating but it does get better. Then there's stupid arguments over loot and outraged attention-seeking drama from childish people
Most of that does get burned away as you progress - the further your raid guild goes the more congenial the people are to play with (big generalisation but usually true I think)
I took a long time to find a raiding guild and spent a lot of time at 60 not in one. I've eventually found one I'm happy with and I'm really enjoying this game now
Well I hope you give it a try. I think the game you want is hidden deep within the social morasse of end game raid guilds but that it is available to you if you seek it out
Regards
Brista