07-10-2006, 10:42 PM
Background
So Treesh and I decided we needed another young duo. I had my L28 shaman, she had her L28 warrior. Her warrior is going mostly fury but is trying to work some protection skills in there, she's very curious how it will play and build and if it can be sustained end game.
I didn't want to build the shaman as a resto. I've built a resto druid, am building a holy/disc priest, built a retribution/holy paladin. I've played resto druids and holy paladins end game. I've got a strong grasp on healing that if I change to a mostly resto build end game I don't think I'll take much time in picking up the tricks of the trade and spec with the class. Besides if I'm with a hybrid warrior most of the time I won't really need to boost my healing.
So that leads you down the enhancement and elemental trees. I thought at first that I was try a 31 elemental / 20 enhancement build. Before 1.11 I was actually running down the elemental tree and was 19 points deep in the tree. So I got to get some feel for building down that tree first. Treesh and I decided to turn the two into a duo after the patch so I was sitting there with unspent talent points. I was pretty much set on where I wanted to spend my 20 in enhancement but I was till debating a few of the elemental talents. So in order to get out there and killing stuff alongside my wife I said. Eh I'll slap the 19 into enhancement right now. Since I'm an orc I went to the AH and picked up a nice 2 handed axe and away we went.
So, yeah, I learned why the conventional wisdom is start in the enhancement tree when build the shaman. The DPS increase without having to suck down the mana pool is pretty impressive even if a windfurry weapon proc will eat your flurry charges.
Builds
So I've been thinking about 3 different builds. There is plenty of debate for all the builds and wiggle room for the talents but I'll put the builds up there now. I'll discuss what I'm thinking about for playstyle after you get a chance to look at the builds.
The first is sticking with 31 elemental. It would look something like this: Blizzard Talent Calc View
The 2nd would be trying the 31 enhancement route right of the bat. It would look something like this: Blizzard Talent Calc View
The 3rd would likely be a 25/26 split in the two trees and look something like this: Blizzard Talent Calc View
Thoughts on Playstyle
So I got to thinking more and I thought, "do I really want to go 31 in elemental now?" I can always spec into it later and see what I think about the 31 point talent. The idea with the talents on that build were so that I could cast things down and still have some control on physical damage, quick chain lightnings for some pseudo AoE, hard hitting lightning bolts, solid shocks and every time I used elemental mastery not only would I get a free crit elemental spell I'd get a 9% melee crit increas as well. The issue? Well if I were still doing a lot of solo I can still see the benefits that I first saw with this build. However I'm with a warrior now and that means play style should likely change which lead to the next two builds.
Since I am with a warrior now I actually don't see me using the lightning bolts and stuff as often. I see me getting up in there right next to the warrior and smashing the heck out of the poor mob(s). Since I'll be doing instances with the warrior it means I could end up being a supplemental healer, an off tank, or pure DPS (not that that is any different than if I wasn't with the warrio). That means what I want out of elemental isn't the biggest damage boosts I can get for the elemental spells it means I'm looking to use the elemental tree to enhance my DPS. Shocks and swings. I might have aggro I might have things beating on me and thats fine, whatever gets us the kills faster.
So that leads to the debate on the build and on some of the points.
Thoughts on Talents
When I look at the deeper enhancement talents, I see merit in all of them.
T5:
* Improved Weapon Totems - Sure that is almost no place where flametongue weapon totem has a use but getting the attack power bonus of windfurry totem from 315 to 409.5 doesn't seem like a bad way to spend 2 points.
* Elemental Weapons - Kinda the same thing, but I get a bigger badder rockbiter as well as a nastiers windfury weapon or a better flametongue or frostbrand if I ever find a situation where those are better than rockbiter or windfury.
* Parry - 1 point for 5% physical damage avoidance, hard to find any other talent, in any tree that gives that kind of return, and it unlocks the use of bonuses on other items.
T6:
* Weapon Mastery - 10% melee damage boost is not bad for 5 points
T7:
* Stormstrike - I don't know an extra melee attack for 205 mana seems alright and kicking up the damage of a chain lightning or earthshock in the process seems to be not too bad a deal.
When I look at the elemental tree it seems my focus is on making the shocks betters and this is really the tree that I'm struggling with. The builds that go deep in enhancement start to boild down to trade offs too. If I break down my thoughts on the talents.
T1: I like both of the T1 talents (cheaper spells and more damage on the spells)
T2: I don't really care about any of the T2. They aren't bad but they feel more valuable as PvP talents, though elemantal warding could still have a place in raid builds and if I was soloing more there is some use for a tougher stoneclaw totem. 15% more damage on the fire totems, I don't know, in most cases that is 15% of very little. It would take some convincing to get me to take any of these when I know I have a warrior around all the time.
T3:
* Elemental Focus - just extends the mana pool while doing damage, I like it.
* Reverberation - I really like casting shocks faster. Not only is it a DPS boost but it helps with ES for spell interrupts, making sure frostshock is up for runners. I like it.
* Call of thunder - if I'm casting a lot of lightning bolts, this is great, but I don't think I will be.
T4:
* Improved Fire Nova - has me thinking about it. I've seen that totem get taken out before it can off quite a lot in PvE situations going off 2 seconds after I drop it means I could actually do some consistent AoE damage. Same with a lower threat magma totem. It's less likely to killed before it goes it's course, with me and a warrior to keep mobs off the totems those two totems suddenly become more useful.
* Eye of the storm - is a great PvP talent and it seems that it could have some big benefits in PvE. I expect that I'll likely have aggro at times if I'm up there smacking things I've seen what a good weapon and some windfurry procs can do mixed in with liberal use of shocks for even more aggro, but I'm still going to be throwing heals out and not having them stuttered after I take a crit hit (when I really need to heal) has some appeal.
* Elemental Devestation - just offers too much synergy between the two trees for me to pass up, even if it won't make much actual difference.
T5:
* Storm Reach - is great if I'm actually casting a lot of lightning spells, it is a waste of points if I don't cast them that much.
* Elemental Fury - is a very nice little damage adder for any spell I cast that might happen to crit.
T6:
* Lightning Mastery - is, once again, great if I'm casting bolts and chains a lot not so valuable if I'm not.
T7:
*Elemental Mastery - I touched on this earlier. Fun synergy with elem devastion, small extender on the mana pool, nice to help burst damage.
Trade Offs
So if I got 31 elemental I'll likely have to put several points into improving lightning bolts, which are not bad points at all but I think the playstyle I want will have me smacking stuff more. Again if I was solo I'd get to smack stuff a lot as well as shoot stuff a lot. Since I'm a duo now if I stand back and cast I likely won't be smacking stuff much at all. I want the hybrid feel while playing so I think spending points on the lightning bolts is out.
So lets look at builds 2 and 3 as is. Both of them have at least 26 points in enhancement, meaning that I've got all the T5 talents in both.
Build 2 has weapon mastery and stormstrike
Build 3 has imp fire nova totem, eye of the storm, and elemental fury
So it's 10% melee damage and an on demand extra attack + some more damge vs more usable AoE totems, clear casting after a crit, and spell/totem crits doing 200% damage as opposed to 150% damage.
Questions
I think after posting this that I think I want to do more melee than casting. I think I really would have more fun doing mostly melee with casting to supplement that would really make the shaman feel very fluid and hybrid to me and that has appeal. Build 2 and 3 seem to offer more of that than build 1.
I'm very interested in opinions on the builds, including thoughts on build 1 while playing with a warrior. Maybe I do the duo stuff while I'm up there smacking but with build one, in 5 man situation I'm very much able to sit back and cast effectively if I choose. Think I'd like that?
Is there a better way to spend the points in the elemental tree to help enhance what I do from the enhancement tree?
I didn't speak much about the first 20 points in enhancement, I'm pretty set on it but I'd entertain opinions on changing those points.
Thoughts on the improved fire nova totem? I saw a Baron run where it was the major source of AoE on the skeletons against the baron (warrior, rogue, shaman, feral druid, feral/resto druid), would have been much more powerful there and in places like the lyceum going off 2 seconds faster. Will a magma totem really be much less likely to be destroyed if it's drawing less aggro? Actually I think a lot hinges on this question. If that talent really isn't worth it, being that much stronger in melee damage with just some of the early tree improvements to shocks might just be the best way to go.
Is it worth getting deep enough for elemental fury? I could ignore fire nova and eye of the storm and get 6% more crit on the lightning bolts for when I do cast them and have them crit even harder (along with the totems and shocks critting harder). Thoughts on that?
Am I crazy in starting to think that for a PvE world the elemental tree is the weakest tree the shaman have? The enhancement talents will all still scale quite nicely if you get a new weapon, the elemental talents will scale on damage gear but as the discussion of the shaman sets seems to show, the damage gear seems to be less abundant, shaman have mana problems to begin with, and the gearing to help those mana problems doesn't seem to be as common. Hmmm.
So Treesh and I decided we needed another young duo. I had my L28 shaman, she had her L28 warrior. Her warrior is going mostly fury but is trying to work some protection skills in there, she's very curious how it will play and build and if it can be sustained end game.
I didn't want to build the shaman as a resto. I've built a resto druid, am building a holy/disc priest, built a retribution/holy paladin. I've played resto druids and holy paladins end game. I've got a strong grasp on healing that if I change to a mostly resto build end game I don't think I'll take much time in picking up the tricks of the trade and spec with the class. Besides if I'm with a hybrid warrior most of the time I won't really need to boost my healing.
So that leads you down the enhancement and elemental trees. I thought at first that I was try a 31 elemental / 20 enhancement build. Before 1.11 I was actually running down the elemental tree and was 19 points deep in the tree. So I got to get some feel for building down that tree first. Treesh and I decided to turn the two into a duo after the patch so I was sitting there with unspent talent points. I was pretty much set on where I wanted to spend my 20 in enhancement but I was till debating a few of the elemental talents. So in order to get out there and killing stuff alongside my wife I said. Eh I'll slap the 19 into enhancement right now. Since I'm an orc I went to the AH and picked up a nice 2 handed axe and away we went.
So, yeah, I learned why the conventional wisdom is start in the enhancement tree when build the shaman. The DPS increase without having to suck down the mana pool is pretty impressive even if a windfurry weapon proc will eat your flurry charges.
Builds
So I've been thinking about 3 different builds. There is plenty of debate for all the builds and wiggle room for the talents but I'll put the builds up there now. I'll discuss what I'm thinking about for playstyle after you get a chance to look at the builds.
The first is sticking with 31 elemental. It would look something like this: Blizzard Talent Calc View
The 2nd would be trying the 31 enhancement route right of the bat. It would look something like this: Blizzard Talent Calc View
The 3rd would likely be a 25/26 split in the two trees and look something like this: Blizzard Talent Calc View
Thoughts on Playstyle
So I got to thinking more and I thought, "do I really want to go 31 in elemental now?" I can always spec into it later and see what I think about the 31 point talent. The idea with the talents on that build were so that I could cast things down and still have some control on physical damage, quick chain lightnings for some pseudo AoE, hard hitting lightning bolts, solid shocks and every time I used elemental mastery not only would I get a free crit elemental spell I'd get a 9% melee crit increas as well. The issue? Well if I were still doing a lot of solo I can still see the benefits that I first saw with this build. However I'm with a warrior now and that means play style should likely change which lead to the next two builds.
Since I am with a warrior now I actually don't see me using the lightning bolts and stuff as often. I see me getting up in there right next to the warrior and smashing the heck out of the poor mob(s). Since I'll be doing instances with the warrior it means I could end up being a supplemental healer, an off tank, or pure DPS (not that that is any different than if I wasn't with the warrio). That means what I want out of elemental isn't the biggest damage boosts I can get for the elemental spells it means I'm looking to use the elemental tree to enhance my DPS. Shocks and swings. I might have aggro I might have things beating on me and thats fine, whatever gets us the kills faster.
So that leads to the debate on the build and on some of the points.
Thoughts on Talents
When I look at the deeper enhancement talents, I see merit in all of them.
T5:
* Improved Weapon Totems - Sure that is almost no place where flametongue weapon totem has a use but getting the attack power bonus of windfurry totem from 315 to 409.5 doesn't seem like a bad way to spend 2 points.
* Elemental Weapons - Kinda the same thing, but I get a bigger badder rockbiter as well as a nastiers windfury weapon or a better flametongue or frostbrand if I ever find a situation where those are better than rockbiter or windfury.
* Parry - 1 point for 5% physical damage avoidance, hard to find any other talent, in any tree that gives that kind of return, and it unlocks the use of bonuses on other items.
T6:
* Weapon Mastery - 10% melee damage boost is not bad for 5 points
T7:
* Stormstrike - I don't know an extra melee attack for 205 mana seems alright and kicking up the damage of a chain lightning or earthshock in the process seems to be not too bad a deal.
When I look at the elemental tree it seems my focus is on making the shocks betters and this is really the tree that I'm struggling with. The builds that go deep in enhancement start to boild down to trade offs too. If I break down my thoughts on the talents.
T1: I like both of the T1 talents (cheaper spells and more damage on the spells)
T2: I don't really care about any of the T2. They aren't bad but they feel more valuable as PvP talents, though elemantal warding could still have a place in raid builds and if I was soloing more there is some use for a tougher stoneclaw totem. 15% more damage on the fire totems, I don't know, in most cases that is 15% of very little. It would take some convincing to get me to take any of these when I know I have a warrior around all the time.
T3:
* Elemental Focus - just extends the mana pool while doing damage, I like it.
* Reverberation - I really like casting shocks faster. Not only is it a DPS boost but it helps with ES for spell interrupts, making sure frostshock is up for runners. I like it.
* Call of thunder - if I'm casting a lot of lightning bolts, this is great, but I don't think I will be.
T4:
* Improved Fire Nova - has me thinking about it. I've seen that totem get taken out before it can off quite a lot in PvE situations going off 2 seconds after I drop it means I could actually do some consistent AoE damage. Same with a lower threat magma totem. It's less likely to killed before it goes it's course, with me and a warrior to keep mobs off the totems those two totems suddenly become more useful.
* Eye of the storm - is a great PvP talent and it seems that it could have some big benefits in PvE. I expect that I'll likely have aggro at times if I'm up there smacking things I've seen what a good weapon and some windfurry procs can do mixed in with liberal use of shocks for even more aggro, but I'm still going to be throwing heals out and not having them stuttered after I take a crit hit (when I really need to heal) has some appeal.
* Elemental Devestation - just offers too much synergy between the two trees for me to pass up, even if it won't make much actual difference.
T5:
* Storm Reach - is great if I'm actually casting a lot of lightning spells, it is a waste of points if I don't cast them that much.
* Elemental Fury - is a very nice little damage adder for any spell I cast that might happen to crit.
T6:
* Lightning Mastery - is, once again, great if I'm casting bolts and chains a lot not so valuable if I'm not.
T7:
*Elemental Mastery - I touched on this earlier. Fun synergy with elem devastion, small extender on the mana pool, nice to help burst damage.
Trade Offs
So if I got 31 elemental I'll likely have to put several points into improving lightning bolts, which are not bad points at all but I think the playstyle I want will have me smacking stuff more. Again if I was solo I'd get to smack stuff a lot as well as shoot stuff a lot. Since I'm a duo now if I stand back and cast I likely won't be smacking stuff much at all. I want the hybrid feel while playing so I think spending points on the lightning bolts is out.
So lets look at builds 2 and 3 as is. Both of them have at least 26 points in enhancement, meaning that I've got all the T5 talents in both.
Build 2 has weapon mastery and stormstrike
Build 3 has imp fire nova totem, eye of the storm, and elemental fury
So it's 10% melee damage and an on demand extra attack + some more damge vs more usable AoE totems, clear casting after a crit, and spell/totem crits doing 200% damage as opposed to 150% damage.
Questions
I think after posting this that I think I want to do more melee than casting. I think I really would have more fun doing mostly melee with casting to supplement that would really make the shaman feel very fluid and hybrid to me and that has appeal. Build 2 and 3 seem to offer more of that than build 1.
I'm very interested in opinions on the builds, including thoughts on build 1 while playing with a warrior. Maybe I do the duo stuff while I'm up there smacking but with build one, in 5 man situation I'm very much able to sit back and cast effectively if I choose. Think I'd like that?
Is there a better way to spend the points in the elemental tree to help enhance what I do from the enhancement tree?
I didn't speak much about the first 20 points in enhancement, I'm pretty set on it but I'd entertain opinions on changing those points.
Thoughts on the improved fire nova totem? I saw a Baron run where it was the major source of AoE on the skeletons against the baron (warrior, rogue, shaman, feral druid, feral/resto druid), would have been much more powerful there and in places like the lyceum going off 2 seconds faster. Will a magma totem really be much less likely to be destroyed if it's drawing less aggro? Actually I think a lot hinges on this question. If that talent really isn't worth it, being that much stronger in melee damage with just some of the early tree improvements to shocks might just be the best way to go.
Is it worth getting deep enough for elemental fury? I could ignore fire nova and eye of the storm and get 6% more crit on the lightning bolts for when I do cast them and have them crit even harder (along with the totems and shocks critting harder). Thoughts on that?
Am I crazy in starting to think that for a PvE world the elemental tree is the weakest tree the shaman have? The enhancement talents will all still scale quite nicely if you get a new weapon, the elemental talents will scale on damage gear but as the discussion of the shaman sets seems to show, the damage gear seems to be less abundant, shaman have mana problems to begin with, and the gearing to help those mana problems doesn't seem to be as common. Hmmm.
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It's all just zeroes and ones and duct tape in the end.
It's all just zeroes and ones and duct tape in the end.