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Speaking of Shaman - Kevin - 07-10-2006
Background
So Treesh and I decided we needed another young duo. I had my L28 shaman, she had her L28 warrior. Her warrior is going mostly fury but is trying to work some protection skills in there, she's very curious how it will play and build and if it can be sustained end game.
I didn't want to build the shaman as a resto. I've built a resto druid, am building a holy/disc priest, built a retribution/holy paladin. I've played resto druids and holy paladins end game. I've got a strong grasp on healing that if I change to a mostly resto build end game I don't think I'll take much time in picking up the tricks of the trade and spec with the class. Besides if I'm with a hybrid warrior most of the time I won't really need to boost my healing.
So that leads you down the enhancement and elemental trees. I thought at first that I was try a 31 elemental / 20 enhancement build. Before 1.11 I was actually running down the elemental tree and was 19 points deep in the tree. So I got to get some feel for building down that tree first. Treesh and I decided to turn the two into a duo after the patch so I was sitting there with unspent talent points. I was pretty much set on where I wanted to spend my 20 in enhancement but I was till debating a few of the elemental talents. So in order to get out there and killing stuff alongside my wife I said. Eh I'll slap the 19 into enhancement right now. Since I'm an orc I went to the AH and picked up a nice 2 handed axe and away we went.
So, yeah, I learned why the conventional wisdom is start in the enhancement tree when build the shaman. The DPS increase without having to suck down the mana pool is pretty impressive even if a windfurry weapon proc will eat your flurry charges.
Builds
So I've been thinking about 3 different builds. There is plenty of debate for all the builds and wiggle room for the talents but I'll put the builds up there now. I'll discuss what I'm thinking about for playstyle after you get a chance to look at the builds.
The first is sticking with 31 elemental. It would look something like this: Blizzard Talent Calc View
The 2nd would be trying the 31 enhancement route right of the bat. It would look something like this: Blizzard Talent Calc View
The 3rd would likely be a 25/26 split in the two trees and look something like this: Blizzard Talent Calc View
Thoughts on Playstyle
So I got to thinking more and I thought, "do I really want to go 31 in elemental now?" I can always spec into it later and see what I think about the 31 point talent. The idea with the talents on that build were so that I could cast things down and still have some control on physical damage, quick chain lightnings for some pseudo AoE, hard hitting lightning bolts, solid shocks and every time I used elemental mastery not only would I get a free crit elemental spell I'd get a 9% melee crit increas as well. The issue? Well if I were still doing a lot of solo I can still see the benefits that I first saw with this build. However I'm with a warrior now and that means play style should likely change which lead to the next two builds.
Since I am with a warrior now I actually don't see me using the lightning bolts and stuff as often. I see me getting up in there right next to the warrior and smashing the heck out of the poor mob(s). Since I'll be doing instances with the warrior it means I could end up being a supplemental healer, an off tank, or pure DPS (not that that is any different than if I wasn't with the warrio). That means what I want out of elemental isn't the biggest damage boosts I can get for the elemental spells it means I'm looking to use the elemental tree to enhance my DPS. Shocks and swings. I might have aggro I might have things beating on me and thats fine, whatever gets us the kills faster.
So that leads to the debate on the build and on some of the points.
Thoughts on Talents
When I look at the deeper enhancement talents, I see merit in all of them.
T5:
* Improved Weapon Totems - Sure that is almost no place where flametongue weapon totem has a use but getting the attack power bonus of windfurry totem from 315 to 409.5 doesn't seem like a bad way to spend 2 points.
* Elemental Weapons - Kinda the same thing, but I get a bigger badder rockbiter as well as a nastiers windfury weapon or a better flametongue or frostbrand if I ever find a situation where those are better than rockbiter or windfury.
* Parry - 1 point for 5% physical damage avoidance, hard to find any other talent, in any tree that gives that kind of return, and it unlocks the use of bonuses on other items.
T6:
* Weapon Mastery - 10% melee damage boost is not bad for 5 points
T7:
* Stormstrike - I don't know an extra melee attack for 205 mana seems alright and kicking up the damage of a chain lightning or earthshock in the process seems to be not too bad a deal.
When I look at the elemental tree it seems my focus is on making the shocks betters and this is really the tree that I'm struggling with. The builds that go deep in enhancement start to boild down to trade offs too. If I break down my thoughts on the talents.
T1: I like both of the T1 talents (cheaper spells and more damage on the spells)
T2: I don't really care about any of the T2. They aren't bad but they feel more valuable as PvP talents, though elemantal warding could still have a place in raid builds and if I was soloing more there is some use for a tougher stoneclaw totem. 15% more damage on the fire totems, I don't know, in most cases that is 15% of very little. It would take some convincing to get me to take any of these when I know I have a warrior around all the time.
T3:
* Elemental Focus - just extends the mana pool while doing damage, I like it.
* Reverberation - I really like casting shocks faster. Not only is it a DPS boost but it helps with ES for spell interrupts, making sure frostshock is up for runners. I like it.
* Call of thunder - if I'm casting a lot of lightning bolts, this is great, but I don't think I will be.
T4:
* Improved Fire Nova - has me thinking about it. I've seen that totem get taken out before it can off quite a lot in PvE situations going off 2 seconds after I drop it means I could actually do some consistent AoE damage. Same with a lower threat magma totem. It's less likely to killed before it goes it's course, with me and a warrior to keep mobs off the totems those two totems suddenly become more useful.
* Eye of the storm - is a great PvP talent and it seems that it could have some big benefits in PvE. I expect that I'll likely have aggro at times if I'm up there smacking things I've seen what a good weapon and some windfurry procs can do mixed in with liberal use of shocks for even more aggro, but I'm still going to be throwing heals out and not having them stuttered after I take a crit hit (when I really need to heal) has some appeal.
* Elemental Devestation - just offers too much synergy between the two trees for me to pass up, even if it won't make much actual difference.
T5:
* Storm Reach - is great if I'm actually casting a lot of lightning spells, it is a waste of points if I don't cast them that much.
* Elemental Fury - is a very nice little damage adder for any spell I cast that might happen to crit.
T6:
* Lightning Mastery - is, once again, great if I'm casting bolts and chains a lot not so valuable if I'm not.
T7:
*Elemental Mastery - I touched on this earlier. Fun synergy with elem devastion, small extender on the mana pool, nice to help burst damage.
Trade Offs
So if I got 31 elemental I'll likely have to put several points into improving lightning bolts, which are not bad points at all but I think the playstyle I want will have me smacking stuff more. Again if I was solo I'd get to smack stuff a lot as well as shoot stuff a lot. Since I'm a duo now if I stand back and cast I likely won't be smacking stuff much at all. I want the hybrid feel while playing so I think spending points on the lightning bolts is out.
So lets look at builds 2 and 3 as is. Both of them have at least 26 points in enhancement, meaning that I've got all the T5 talents in both.
Build 2 has weapon mastery and stormstrike
Build 3 has imp fire nova totem, eye of the storm, and elemental fury
So it's 10% melee damage and an on demand extra attack + some more damge vs more usable AoE totems, clear casting after a crit, and spell/totem crits doing 200% damage as opposed to 150% damage.
Questions
I think after posting this that I think I want to do more melee than casting. I think I really would have more fun doing mostly melee with casting to supplement that would really make the shaman feel very fluid and hybrid to me and that has appeal. Build 2 and 3 seem to offer more of that than build 1.
I'm very interested in opinions on the builds, including thoughts on build 1 while playing with a warrior. Maybe I do the duo stuff while I'm up there smacking but with build one, in 5 man situation I'm very much able to sit back and cast effectively if I choose. Think I'd like that?
Is there a better way to spend the points in the elemental tree to help enhance what I do from the enhancement tree?
I didn't speak much about the first 20 points in enhancement, I'm pretty set on it but I'd entertain opinions on changing those points.
Thoughts on the improved fire nova totem? I saw a Baron run where it was the major source of AoE on the skeletons against the baron (warrior, rogue, shaman, feral druid, feral/resto druid), would have been much more powerful there and in places like the lyceum going off 2 seconds faster. Will a magma totem really be much less likely to be destroyed if it's drawing less aggro? Actually I think a lot hinges on this question. If that talent really isn't worth it, being that much stronger in melee damage with just some of the early tree improvements to shocks might just be the best way to go.
Is it worth getting deep enough for elemental fury? I could ignore fire nova and eye of the storm and get 6% more crit on the lightning bolts for when I do cast them and have them crit even harder (along with the totems and shocks critting harder). Thoughts on that?
Am I crazy in starting to think that for a PvE world the elemental tree is the weakest tree the shaman have? The enhancement talents will all still scale quite nicely if you get a new weapon, the elemental talents will scale on damage gear but as the discussion of the shaman sets seems to show, the damage gear seems to be less abundant, shaman have mana problems to begin with, and the gearing to help those mana problems doesn't seem to be as common. Hmmm.
Speaking of Shaman - Kevin - 07-10-2006
Oh yeah one more question.
Given that there are already 20 points in Enhancement (I'm L30 now) so that I've got flurry already which tree do you think you would climb down with either of the 3 builds. How would you finish spending the points as you leveled up.
I realize that most build discussion is centered on the end result and even I got swept up in that, but I'm interested in the build order to. I get a lot of fun out of growing the toons, it's part of the reason why I have multi toons of the same class.
Speaking of Shaman - Urza-DSF - 07-11-2006
Hmm, call me crazy, but I believe we've got entirely oppisite ideas for what would be a damn fine spec. Heres my take on things: Talent Spec
I dunno, maybe its just me but enhancement was just really, really dull for me. Maybe its because I didnt get high enough or that I've already got a warrior, but this one seems like a damn fun (and useful) build to me
Edit: Though thinking about it, the two resto points in healing grace may be better served in healing focus or imp reincarnation. Thoughts?
As for a melee-focused build... perhaps something like: Build Might work rather well, though you could swap in and out points from resto to elemental as you see fit. Like TheseStill think enhancement/resto would be a better fit while duoing.
Edit Edit: Though thinking about it, This dosent seem too bad for a solo build
Damn... There area whole lot of good build ideas arent there? Just thought of This One when I further thought of your concept
Speaking of Shaman - Mavfin - 07-11-2006
Well, just for comparison, this is my current build since 1.11. (Well, as soon as I respec the anticipation in, that's the only change from what I actually have)
Speaking of Shaman - Kevin - 07-11-2006
Quote:Hmm, call me crazy, but I believe we've got entirely oppisite ideas for what would be a damn fine spec. Heres my take on things: Talent Spec
I dunno, maybe its just me but enhancement was just really, really dull for me. Maybe its because I didnt get high enough or that I've already got a warrior, but this one seems like a damn fun (and useful) build to me
Edit: Though thinking about it, the two resto points in healing grace may be better served in healing focus or imp reincarnation. Thoughts?
As for a melee-focused build... perhaps something like: Build Might work rather well, though you could swap in and out points from resto to elemental as you see fit. Like TheseStill think enhancement/resto would be a better fit while duoing.
Edit Edit: Though thinking about it, This dosent seem too bad for a solo build
Damn... There area whole lot of good build ideas arent there? Just thought of This One when I further thought of your concept
Thanks for the input. It got me thinking more and helped me clarify what I think I want, even though I don't think I'll end up with anything like what you came up with, I don't think those are what I want for play style. I've "locked down" 39 of the points. I don't see me changing any of these, even if, as mentioned elemental devastation won't really do much in practice. So I'm pretty much working from that as a base template now. In thinking about it and clarifying what I want, Elemental Devestation seems to help embody what I think I want from the playstyle. Elemental and melee damage synergized as the focus with the ability to heal. So that talent stays even if it might be 3 essentially wasted points. :)
Much of what you have are what I call end game builds. I don't need any extra healing power right now. It doesn't matter. Most of the healing that I need to do is after everything is dead and I'm just cutting out down time or if we are dealing with +3 or +4 elites where I will heal during combat. Healing talents are mostly a waste while leveling in a duo since adding that other's persons DPS drasctically cuts the healing needed. Not to say that I won't likely respec and pick many of them up when I get to end game. The use of NS and so many other shaman talents is great.
Right now because of flurry and windfurry with the same 2 handed weapon I out DPS the warrior. My melee DPS is higher because the swing damage is pretty much the same since a low level warrior still doesn't have a good way to convert rage to damage, the extra attacks and the faster attacks after crits just widen the gap. On top of that I get to work in instant cast shocks for even more damage. Warrior damage doesn't really start to scale up until they get past L40. Heck most paladins can keep very close to warrior DPS up through level 45 or so given the same level of gearing and paladins are not good at DPS.
Mav's build is very close to what I was thinking about doing had I stayed a solo build. But I don't see the value in lightning bolts in the duo as the melee DPS will likely be higher and then I still get to throw in the shocks. And as mentioned thanks to looking at other builds and other ideas I realized that while they offer a very fun playstyle it isn't the play style I want.
Since I'm convinced from my experiences leveling druids, paladins, and priests that my healing is more than adequate for a duo, and probably even for a well played 5 man that it isn't the stuff I need to spend the points to improve. Melee damage gets a large boost early from the talents, I've already seen the effects of that first hand. My damage is greater with 19 points in enhancement than it was with 19 points in elemental. End game scaling and gearing will certainly change that but I've got 30 more levels to get there. :) So pre end game what seems the weakest side of the shaman is melee and elemental damage. The healing seems pretty strong (but again I grew up as the only healer in an instance on my paladin and shaman and feel that any spec priest healing a level appropriate 5 man is easy mode :)).
So yeah I'm clarified but just not sure on how deep for either. The appeal of a split build is that I feel it will keep the damage from either source, melee or elemental, very reasonable. What I'm kinda stuck on is that if you ignore the lightning talents, elemental fury is the best damage scaling talent for elemental damage and weapon mastery is a good scaling damage for melee DPS. And while you can get them both maxxed it leaves you with a floating point in elemental (after what I locked in) and means I'm not maxing weapon totems (and if I'm that deep in enhance I feel I should buff up the party totem) or my weapon self buffs.
I'm still kinda turned off by call of flame because most of the fire totems don't do a heck of a lot of damge anyway, not sure if 15% more really matters. I'm still debating on the value of improved fire nova totem as well. If there is CC around it's completely wasted, but from what I've seen (though I don't have a lot of experience) having it go off 2 seconds after you drop it as opposed to 4 seconds can be a very big deal. But how often will it get used?
And while I said I don't think healing needs that much help I did think about this build if I really do want to go mostly melee. The 3% chance to hit is a very nice talent for later on. I get some added oomph (or mana reduction) to my DPS and get the mana reduction on the heals and totems as well as the larger area of effect on the totems.
However I think what I'm looking for is more rapid burn of the mana pool. I guess it's my approach to duoing. Dump the mana and wipe out the tough mobs, then I can just use the passive boosts to melee DPS to burn down a few of the easier mobs without taking a break. If I have to drink the warrior can still go kill something while I'm doing that so the longevity talents that are in that last build don't seem helpful until I get to the point where I'm doing end game instances. This is also why I like the idea of the strong elemental crits.
I think I'm going with my 2nd build. 19/32. Melee + shocks. That makes gearing choices mostly focusing on melee damage, the mana pool will be pretty small but again I won't need to do a lot of healing.
So now the question is talent order. I've got flurry already so the question is how soon do I want stormstrike to play with or the silly elemental devastation talent that I'm drawn to just because of the concept even if the practicality sucks. :)
I'm thinking.
L30 Parry - it just adds to survivability too much
L31-35 - Concussion, up the elemental damage a bit
L36-40 - Convection, mana pool seems fine now but I'll bet I'll be glad to have the shocks be a bit cheaper
L41 - Elemental focus. I can be a monkey and pull just because I had a clearcast available. :)
L42-43 Improved Weapon totems. I bet the warrior would like having that better windfury in Uldaman.
L44-46 Elemental Weapons. I'm betting my melee DPS will start to feel a bit lagging at this stage and I'll want the boost
L47-50 Weapon Mastery. Same deal, keep that melee DPS happy
L51 - Stormstrike
L52-54 Reverb, while I want it now to help shut up casters better the warrior can still pummel and shield bash
L55-58 Elemental Devestation.
L59 Weapon Mastery
L60 Reverb
Sure a little odd and really getting the improved weapon totem even earlier is the biggest wonder I've got. Give a little more to the warrior than just strength of earth, boost that windfury totem some more, have it be stronger in SM and RFD. The clear casts are fun and all but make em wait. And I can wait 11 levels for storm strike, I want elemental dev early too simply because it's my silly talent that will likely get wasted most of the time becuase of when the crits happen but I know that already. :)
Ah well more musings but my thoughts did get clearer. I think I do want to go the mostly melee route. Be in there alongside the big ole tauren warrior. :)
Speaking of Shaman - Artega - 07-11-2006
Most of the shammies in our guild right now are Enhancement, complete with Stormstrike, and they're pretty much wrecking everything in range.
We do have an Elemental Shammy, complete with Elemental Mastery, and he's not doing nearly as well as our Enhancement buddies; it seems to me that going Enhancement is the best option until late-game, at which point you can switch between the two specs to see what you prefer.
Speaking of Shaman - Lok - 07-13-2006
Well if you are duoing with a warrior, no matter how much you hate it, you will be doing some healing. Therefore enhancement/resto or elemental/resto is the way to go. Where the synergy comes in though is in totems, and I would favor an enhancement/resto build like 32 enhancement, 19 resto . That warrior is going to want improved strength of earth and improved wind fury totems, and you are going to wreck stuff fast like that. The only things I skip in the enhancement line are weapon mastery, toughness, anticipation, and shield spec. Since you are going to be laying down the totems, the resto side helps out alot with -25% mana on totems from totemic focus. You also pick up 70% uninterruptable healing with healing focus from resto which is important since you will be doing Mongo burst damage and will likely have rockbiter up, pulling aggro from the warrior and forcing you to heal while you are being beat upon. You also can get the nice natures guidance for improved hit.
My feel is that if you are shocking etc from elemental, you will not have mana for totems and healing which come first
Speaking of Shaman - Kevin - 07-13-2006
Quote:Well if you are duoing with a warrior, no matter how much you hate it, you will be doing some healing. Therefore enhancement/resto or elemental/resto is the way to go. Where the synergy comes in though is in totems, and I would favor an enhancement/resto build like 32 enhancement, 19 resto . That warrior is going to want improved strength of earth and improved wind fury totems, and you are going to wreck stuff fast like that. The only things I skip in the enhancement line are weapon mastery, toughness, anticipation, and shield spec. Since you are going to be laying down the totems, the resto side helps out alot with -25% mana on totems from totemic focus. You also pick up 70% uninterruptable healing with healing focus from resto which is important since you will be doing Mongo burst damage and will likely have rockbiter up, pulling aggro from the warrior and forcing you to heal while you are being beat upon. You also can get the nice natures guidance for improved hit.
My feel is that if you are shocking etc from elemental, you will not have mana for totems and healing which come first
As mentioned, so far in the 3 levels we have gained together we pwn so hard that that the only times I have to heal at all are when we are fighting 4 or more mobs at the same time (which is a situation that you can choose to control) or when we are fighting elites that are 3 or 4 levels above us. In all cases if I know I'm healing I can simply not shock to save mana for healing. Or I can drink a potion to get mana back.
Yes, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I thought about a build like the one you mentioned but the thing is if you have two solo viable builds playing together you get some "synergy" just from extra DPS. As mentioned I'm getting the better totems already which is the best thing I can offer a warrior.
I think everyone is underestimating how strong shaman healing is even without talent points behind it though. It's easy to control the situations where you need extra healng or not. Honestly I think the only time I'll feel I'll need resto talents is if I have to main heal a 5 man or if we decide to duo an instance while still level appropriate. For most other situations (questing in the world) talents to up DPS are generally going to be seeing more use. I've yet to run out of mana, even when we were already engaged fighting 2 normal mobs that were -3 levels and were both skilling weapons and then had a +4 elite add on us.
Nah, I think I'm happiest with maxing out the DPS of the shaman since out in the world overwhelming stuff with DPS is generally the best way to go. The healing just cuts downtime. It's not like we can't just run away like any solo player would in a situation where they didn't have enough DPS or healing. We are in the same room when playing and all.:)
The other reason for not thinking we'll need the healing is we have done duo's with warriors/priests (two of these each of us with a warrior and each with a priest), hunter/shaman, mage/warlock, druid/rogue, hunter/priest. In some of those cases the healing class optimized the healing, in some they didn't. The duo's where both classes focused on damage or tanking and just left healing at base, killing was faster and easier and more fun for both players.
So I'm still choosing to believe that a decently geared warrior will never need more healing than what a shaman can provide at base levels and that spending mana on DPS is the best choice. If I were with a mage or lock or maybe a rogue I might change my mind and decide that the resto talents are more important because I'd have to heal a lot more. But with a warrior? Nah.
I'll report back in a few months when our few hours a week running the duo gets us to end game. :)
Speaking of Shaman - Treesh - 07-13-2006
Quote:The other reason for not thinking we'll need the healing is we have done duo's with warriors/priests (two of these each of us with a warrior and each with a priest), hunter/shaman, mage/warlock, druid/rogue, hunter/priest. In some of those cases the healing class optimized the healing, in some they didn't. The duo's where both classes focused on damage or tanking and just left healing at base, killing was faster and easier and more fun for both players.You didn't mention that one of the warrior/priest duos was a prot warrior and a holy specced priest and the other warrior/priest duo is an arms warrior with a shadow priest. The arms/shadow combo was able to handle bad situations much more easily because we were able to actually dish out good damage. The more damage you can put out, generally the less healing oomph you'll need since the fights don't last as long.:)