Terenas: Guild Alliance?

[swirly]

Pass:  If everyone passes on an item, an enchanter should loot the corpse and DE the item, a seperate roll will be handled.  We've been having the enchanters need or greed this because we would discuss on TS or party chat prior to them passing, but might want to change that.
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This is one thing that has taken me a little getting used to on Terenas over when I play on Lightbringer. On lightbringer the enchanters don't roll on things to DE them. Instead we all pass and then we random for the item. Then the winner can choose to have an enchanter DE the item or the winner can pick the item up and vender it or whatever. I actually like this system better than what is done on Terenas. The main difference is that the randoming happens before the DE so that the winner gets the choice of what to do with it. On Terenas currently there isn't any choice. The enchanters roll on items that everybody else passes on and then people random for the shard. So unless somebody is really quick in saying they might want to vender it if they win, they will never get a chance at it. It seems to me that it should be the winner's choice what to do with the item and so enchanters should pass like everyone else until it is decided what to do. I know its mainly a time saving issue, but it doesn't really take that much longer for the winner to pick the item up or ask for DE instead of going straight to DE.

[Kevin]

This is one thing that has taken me a little getting used to on Terenas over when I play on Lightbringer.  On lightbringer the enchanters don't roll on things to DE them.  Instead we all pass and then we random for the item.  Then the winner can choose to have an enchanter DE the item or the winner can pick the item up and vender it or whatever.  I actually like this system better than what is done on Terenas.  The main difference is that the randoming happens before the DE so that the winner gets the choice of what to do with it.  On Terenas currently there isn't any choice.  The enchanters roll on items that everybody else passes on and then people random for the shard.  So unless somebody is really quick in saying they might want to vender it if they win, they will never get a chance at it.  It seems to me that it should be the winner's choice what to do with the item and so enchanters should pass like everyone else until it is decided what to do.  I know its mainly a time saving issue, but it doesn't really take that much longer for the winner to pick the item up or ask for DE instead of going straight to DE.
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I actually prefer that method as well but since I generally ask for a shard 90% of the time anyway I didnt' really care about the method we use on Terenas. :)

[Alram]

This is one thing that has taken me a little getting used to on Terenas over when I play on Lightbringer.  On lightbringer the enchanters don't roll on things to DE them.  Instead we all pass and then we random for the item.  Then the winner can choose to have an enchanter DE the item or the winner can pick the item up and vender it or whatever.  I actually like this system better than what is done on Terenas.  The main difference is that the randoming happens before the DE so that the winner gets the choice of what to do with it.  On Terenas currently there isn't any choice.  The enchanters roll on items that everybody else passes on and then people random for the shard.  So unless somebody is really quick in saying they might want to vender it if they win, they will never get a chance at it.  It seems to me that it should be the winner's choice what to do with the item and so enchanters should pass like everyone else until it is decided what to do.  I know its mainly a time saving issue, but it doesn't really take that much longer for the winner to pick the item up or ask for DE instead of going straight to DE.
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I never really thought about this much. Your preference is fine with me.

[vor_lord]

This is one thing that has taken me a little getting used to on Terenas over when I play on Lightbringer.  On lightbringer the enchanters don't roll on things to DE them.  Instead we all pass and then we random for the item.  Then the winner can choose to have an enchanter DE the item or the winner can pick the item up and vender it or whatever.
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See how important it is to discuss this? Since I'm the offender I'll stop this practice immediately -- more than a few times this has caused problems, and now I'm not even consistent as I've been passing instead of rolling (but not always).

[vor_lord]

Need:  One win of this time per run.  Only choose this if you haven't won using Need before, and if it will be part of your Primary gear set.

Greed:  Choose greed if you've already one a Need roll but would still use this item, Primary or Secondary gear.  That way any that haven't won and need this item for their Primary gear set will get preference.  Roll this for any Secondary gear items, only refraining if you find you're winning lots on this against competition.  If you have no competition and find a lot going your way, you might want to check with the raid if they're OK with it, and be sure it is gear that will be used.

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I think having to decide on a Primary gear set and a Secondary gear set is difficult to define, and perhaps a little more complicated than I would like. Currently I have what I think of as three sets of gear (lots of overlap between them). I have my regen gear, my +healing/balanced gear, and my damage gear. I use the damage pieces anywhere outside, in PvP, or in any zerg where I have free water. I use the +healing/balanced gear for a 5 man or UBRS. I use the regen gear for known long fights, outside grinding, or whenever I'm on a zerg without mage water. I carry all the pieces with me all the time (thank you 16 slot bags).

I think I preferred the phrase "will use it a lot". I know that "use it a lot" is open to interpretation, but we have to let fair play and common sense play a role. Now I'm rambling, but I guess it would be hard to define a 'primary' set of gear.

edit: Added some more thoughts

Just thought some examples might help clarify in my own mind. Priests have it pretty easy. They can use just about any good cloth, whereas the healing cloth they don't have competition. So theoretically under the loose definition I've espoused above, a priest could save their need rolls for damage or generally useful cloth, and likely get the healing cloth on greed rolls unlimited. Should the holy/disc priest roll need on that uber +shadow damage gear? I don't think so. What's a good way to help guide the right behavior without creating a more complicated decision tree than already exists? Having two priests on a given run would of course rein that in quite a bit as you may want to spend your need roll on a healing piece, but often there won't be more than one.

[VoiceMan]

This is one thing that has taken me a little getting used to on Terenas over when I play on Lightbringer.  On lightbringer the enchanters don't roll on things to DE them.  Instead we all pass and then we random for the item.  Then the winner can choose to have an enchanter DE the item or the winner can pick the item up and vender it or whatever.  I actually like this system better than what is done on Terenas.  The main difference is that the randoming happens before the DE so that the winner gets the choice of what to do with it.  On Terenas currently there isn't any choice.  The enchanters roll on items that everybody else passes on and then people random for the shard.  So unless somebody is really quick in saying they might want to vender it if they win, they will never get a chance at it.  It seems to me that it should be the winner's choice what to do with the item and so enchanters should pass like everyone else until it is decided what to do.  I know its mainly a time saving issue, but it doesn't really take that much longer for the winner to pick the item up or ask for DE instead of going straight to DE.
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I actually like this idea. It's probably not wise for us to assume an item should be DE'd just because no one will wear it. The winner of the roll should be able to choose the end result of the item, be it a shard, or vendor trash.

[Xame]

Just an addition to the loot rules discussion. I've run raids with most of the major guilds on our server (NOS, Nightmare Syndicate, Theater of Pain, Warlords Reborn, and BoV. I have not yet run with Thrall's Champions :( ) and they have a set of standard PUG rules that appear to be common. I normally always ask the rules and the answer comes back,

"need one set, one blue/Bop blah, blah blah....". I'm not joking on the "blah blah blah" part.

During some down time I started the discussion a few times to find out what "blah blah blah" meant.

You get one Need for a set item that you will put on right now.
You get one Need for any other blue.
You get one Shard from a DE or non-needed blue (dust is free)
Greens are all greed except for BoP's (variation: sometimes BoP's are also just greed)
One Stitching/Orb/Stone/etc on greed roll, only if you have a need (no AH'ing them, this is a source of some fights since the rest are to be given to your guild for free)
Books/etc are guild rolled if they are valueable for the guild bank (see key pieces below) if the guild already has plenty of them, they are given to the non-guild members as payment for the run to be AH'ed (ie. NOS has copys of all books on file for new 60's as a presents, many people buy their's earlier)

All boss fights are Masterlooter (ALWAYS). Items like lbrs key pieces/strat key/skinning knife, are guild rolled (leaders of the majority guild leading the raid roll them off or they are assigned, non-guildies can use their "need" to get a roll against the guild rolls unless it is a skinning knife run at which point you will not get it).

Note that there is nothing in here about your build or their build. Stepping back from what is "best" for someone's build is very much in the eye of the person. Yes, in Lurkers we want to make the best guild possible so we worry about such things (eg. that sword in my hands will help the guild more then that sword in your hands.) I believe this is where the "trust" comes in. When two people say they need something and it is a tier 2 item for one of the people and they "pass" their roll (they are trusting the other person's judgement that they have a greater need then them). Note the standard rules are pure greed/fairness based, with only a few exceptions for building a better guild. It is in the "building a better guild" or "building a better alliance" that we get into the grey zone of trust/maturity. Thus NoS/NS on MC runs have said that all items will go to the NoS/NS guilds for best use (ie. Yuri cann't get his hands on core hides to give to lurkers since I'm not the assigned person and it would be unethical to even do so. The items have been assigned to people to make items for guild selected people....tanks then priests). Similarly Lurkers and LS will come to some agreement about what is for the guild/alliance and what is for the individual. I find generosity normally starts to break down the walls of distrust and reveals the ninjas.

BTW. I will be on early Friday (6:45) for MC but will be talking to my wife so I don't know how much I can help with the discussion (my wife likes to believe she has my attention when she is talking to me :whistling: ).

[Alram]

Thank you everyone for your input.
By the way, I have found I can use my Voice recognition software to type directly into World of Warcraft chat without having to run in windowed mode. Essentially this means that I can dictate and my computer will automatically type the chat for me. I also have installed Ventrilo. So, if for some reason Treesh is unable to make it, my sorry typing skills should not be an impediment to an intelligent discussion with the Lost Souls.

[Alram]

I received an email today from the GM of the Lost Souls. She apologized for not being around much the past few days as she has been having serious computer issues. I will respond to her later today. I am posting their loot rules. I think I have a handle on what we want based upon previous posts in this thread, and that our guilds would be in fundamental agreement. I would like to give folks an opportunity to respond to any of the specifics before I reply. Please feel free to PM me or post any comments.

These are their current guild raid rules.

Guild Raid Rules.
1. No Looting till ALL mobs are dead
2. Pass on ALL BOP's
3. Pass on ALL NON BOP plans/patts
4. Greed on all other Non Bop greens
5. Mages pls mark Sheep w/detect magic
6. ML will be used on ALL Bosses
7. 1 Blue/Upgrade per raid, carried over if you don't get one to next raid
8. You will be instructed on you role in the raid, puller etc.
9. Orb's and other Rare items will be kept for the guild and a list of ppl for enchants kept, Crusder etc.

[bonemage]

Just a couple of notes on things:

BoE purples are not on the list. Not a big deal because of BoE, but having a guideline should make this quicker. I support a greed roll for all. If someone really wants to wear the item on the toon they brought to the raid and lose the greed roll, a fair or discounted trade/purchase can be worked out with the winner of roll. I suggest an additional line to discuss this.

This is the first mention of a guild bank. I'm not sure if we're to that point just yet, to have a guild bank for two different guilds. For those types of materials, I think a greed roll for all BoE reagents is more appropriate now for early joint outings. We're still in trial mode right now. I suggest the removal of this line, and an addition of a line for BoE reagents, and a line for BoP reagents (abomination stitchings, etc.), the BoP regeants guidelines based on GG's notes.



Edit: posted long before I was done.

[vor_lord]

This is the first mention of a guild bank.  I'm not sure if we're to that point just yet, to have a guild bank for two different guilds. 
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How about a guild roll on all reagents? One rep from Lurkers, one from Lost Souls? This way those nice reagents (and patterns) can still build guild professions etc. without worrying about unfairness between two.

[Alram]

Just a couple of notes on things:

BoE purples are not on the list.  Not a big deal because of BoE, but having a guideline should make this quicker.  I support a greed roll for all.  If someone really wants to wear the item on the toon they brought to the raid and lose the greed roll, a fair or discounted trade/purchase can be worked out with the winner of roll.  I suggest an additional line to discuss this.

This is the first mention of a guild bank.  I'm not sure if we're to that point just yet, to have a guild bank for two different guilds.  For those types of materials, I think a greed roll for all BoE reagents is more appropriate now for early joint outings.  We're still in trial mode right now.  I suggest the removal of this line, and an addition of a line for BoE reagents, and a line for BoP reagents (abomination stitchings, etc.), the BoP regeants guidelines based on GG's notes.
Edit:  posted long before I was done.
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Everyone should pass on purples imo.

I don't think she is proposing a joint guild bank; these are their current guild rules within their guild.

By the way, I sent her an initial reply. Here is the partial text of my reply.

We did have a question about how the mechanics of having a raid leader from each guild would work. For loot issues and the like it is a good idea.  For giving directions on how to manage each pull it seems like we would do better with 1 person calling the shots (with feedback as needed). Perhaps we could alternate that role from raid to raid.

We currently use Teamspeak for our voice communications during instance runs. I raised the idea of using Ventrilo with The Lurkers since that is what you and many other guilds use. I learned that some of our guild members use Linux, and that they are unable to properly run Ventrilo with Linux. Ventrilo might therefore be a problem for us, and I wonder how you would feel about using Teamspeak.

With regard to the upcoming raid this Friday night we need to have some coordination beforehand so that we have the right numbers of folks from each guild and that we have a healer, etc.  We usually establish a thread on our forum each week in which people post whether they will be coming and it generally takes a couple of days to finalize.

[VoiceMan]

Seeing as there's at least a little discussion regarding the rules used by Lost Souls, are we going to be able to come up with a list of guidelines in place for this Friday night, and then make sure we can refer to them during the raid, as to help eliminate confusion and possible loot drama? I see that as being good. Come up with a mix of our rules and their rules, and be able to get it agreed upon by both guilds, and proceed from there.

[Alram]

I just sent an email to the Lost Souls GM. To create the loot rules I used a compilation of feedback received from several lurkers including posts by GG, Xame, Vorlord and myself, as well as feedback I received from folks in game.

Hello again,
Here are our responses to your current raid rules. Please let me know what you think.
1. No Looting till ALL mobs are dead
Fully agree

2. Pass on ALL BOP's
To this I would add--and purples

3. Pass on ALL NON BOP plans/patts
ok--see #9 below.

4. Greed on all other Non Bop greens
Agreed. Discussions on whether the need to give the item to someone who expresses a need, an alt or someone  who is not on the raid may be taken up after the roll, but the item's winner has final say.

5. Mages pls mark Sheep w/detect magic
yup

6. ML will be used on ALL Bosses
ok

7. 1 Blue/Upgrade per raid, carried over if you don't get one to next raid
Base rule: You may win one blue/purple per run.  Further items of this classification may end up being yours because nobody else wants them, but you are limited to winning one of these items by Need per run.
You get one Shard from a DE or non-needed blue (dust is free)

8. You will be instructed on your role in the raid, puller etc.
One person, usually the main tank calls the shots on each pull, and everyone follows instructions. Of course  feedback and suggestions on tactics are welcomed from experienced players.

9. Orb's and other Rare items will be kept for the guild and a list of ppl for enchants kept, Crusder etc.
Initially eveeeryone passes. Then how about a guild roll on all reagents, books, patterns? One rep from Lurkers, one from Lost Souls? This way those nice reagents (and patterns) can still build guild professions etc. without worrying about unfairness between guilds. The guild that wins the roll will then handle the distribution  within  the respective guild.  If one guild seems to be winning all the rolls they will then defer to the other guild until a balance has been struck.

We are currently working up a roster of who will be present and at what time.  I would like to know how many Lost Souls will be in attendance. By the way do you have a UBRS key?

Our Linux users are working on a solution to their problems with Ventrilo with no success to date. Can you let me know if Teamspeak would work for you?  Teamspeak can be downloaded here:
http://www.goteamspeak.com/downloads.php

Also, here is a link to an AB Teamspeak guide.
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/index.php?...t=ts_howto

Thanks. We are looking forward to the raid.

[vor_lord]

7. 1 Blue/Upgrade per raid, carried over if you don't get one to next raid

Is everyone ok with this? I'd rather not worry about carryover except in ZG+. Tracking it will be a pain, and except on ZG+ attending one raid does not help progress the team (we all know how to do UBRS or any other likely raid target, and one raid won't really affect the success of the next for example).

I guess this is aimed at reducing 'unlucky' streaks, so I suppose I can go along if necessary, but it's work to track it. The way I see it, I only roll need on something about 10-15% of the runs I go on. I could save a whole bunch of these 'need' rolls and potentially use them all on a raid when the drops were kind to me. That might be fair given how long it had been since I got a need, it might not feel that way especially to someone who hasn't been many times.

Not sure, just wondering what others think about that. Not a big issue either way.

[VoiceMan]

I just sent an email to the Lost Souls GM. To create the loot rules I used a compilation of feedback received from several lurkers including posts by GG, Xame, Vorlord and myself, as well as feedback I received from folks in game.
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Well, if the email has been sent, I guess it's too late whether we agree or not. I would have preferred being able to agree as a guild what we think on loot before proposing things to another guild, but what's done is done I suppose. I do think we need to have loot guidlines agreed upon by both guilds in the raid PRIOR to embarking on the raid, and the raid leaders should have a hard copy of said guidelines to refer to mid-raid in case there are questions.

EDIT: I don't know if I like the carryover either. As I recall, several Lurkers expressed they had a problem with that, so I'm surprised it was just accepted and put into place against the wishes of most of the Lurkers. Little or no discussion to a solution took place either, to my knowledge. Too hard to track, and seems prone to abuse to me. But that's just me. I'm a simple straight-forward kind of guy. I'll be suprised if I manage to remember the loot guidelines. I will be one who will want a print out to have on hand to refer to when rolling time comes along. :P

[Alram]

Well, if the email has been sent, I guess it's too late whether we agree or not.  I would have preferred being able to agree as a guild what we think on loot before proposing things to another guild, but what's done is done I suppose.  I do think we need to have loot guidlines agreed upon by both guilds in the raid PRIOR to embarking on the raid, and the raid leaders should have a hard copy of said guidelines to refer to mid-raid in case there are questions.

EDIT:  I don't know if I like the carryover either.  As I recall, several Lurkers expressed they had a problem with that, so I'm surprised it was just accepted and put into place against the wishes of most of the Lurkers.  Little or no discussion to a solution took place either, to my knowledge.  Too hard to track, and seems prone to abuse to me.  But that's just me.  I'm a simple straight-forward kind of guy.  I'll be suprised if I manage to remember the loot guidelines.  I will be one who will want a print out to have on hand to refer to when rolling time comes along.  :P
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I did post the Lost Souls raid rules yesterday, and requested feedback. I incorporated feedback I received yesterday. We also discussed loot rules last week. I thought that everyone had had their say. I felt time was of the essence and did not wish to delay further. If I erred in this regard please forgive me. I am also more than willing to step aside and let someone else handle the matter if they so choose.

With regard to the carryover, I think that it is a fine idea within a guild, but when we start raiding with several guilds and different folks going at different times it is probably impossible to track. I thought that I had addressed it, but I overlooked it in my email. As soon as I get home, I will send another email clarifying our position on "carryover."

[Treesh]

They do know that we've got two keys (although with Yuri MCing, we're down to one), correct?

[bonemage]

They do know that we've got two keys (although with Yuri MCing, we're down to one), correct?
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I'm pretty sure members of Synergy have at least one key. Some of their members do have UBRS loot, but that doesn't mean they have access to a key. Perhaps we should inquire on this, or perhaps the first group can be sent on their way with a brief appearance by Yuri?

[Alram]

I just sent this to Olan, GM of the Lost Souls.

Hi,
I left something out in my last email.

7. 1 Blue/Upgrade per raid, carried over if you don't get one to next raid
For instances such as UBRS we prefer not to track "carry overs" as we feel that would be too difficult to keep track of what with different folks going at different times, etc.  When we get to the larger raids such as MC, etc. discussions on some kind of a point system would be fine.