I'm steaming....

[Doc]

Is this really news to anyone? I own an invisible deck and a stripper deck, the staples of any half-competent magician's store.
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You would be suprised at just how many people are suprised that there are cards that are pre marked. That's why many con men can ply their trade. :P

If everybody knew, do you really think there would be so many magicians and cons wowing the masses?

[Occhidiangela]

Oh, to help you get started.

Fake Bicycle brand cards.

They come marked and ready to tell you what each and every card is.

Yes, magicians use them too.

What, you don't think that guy that does those amazing magic card tricks actually has psychic powers to guess which card you pulled do you? When you hold up your card to look at it, he (or she) is seeing the back of the card, which tells him (or her) everything.

Never lose again unless you want to.
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Doc.

The Lounge has a general norm that cheating (explicitly in Blizzard games and Diablo) is not just frowned upon, but actively discouraged. While I suspect you intend to educate, you might also want to look at your last two posts in the light of "did I just admit to cheating and advocating cheating" at a game?

Or not.

Food for thought.

Occhi

[Doc]

Doc.

The Lounge has a general norm that cheating (explicitly in Blizzard games and Diablo) is not just frowned upon, but actively discouraged.  While I suspect you intend to educate, you might also want to look at your last two posts in the light of "did I just admit to cheating and advocating cheating" at a game? 

Or not.

Food for thought.

Occhi
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Occhi, in pro poker, or pro gambling, there is no "cheating."

Only consumate professionals that ply their trade. It's how some people make their living. Seen all those guys on tv lately playing poker? They do it to. And if you don't, somebody else will.

You can not, I repeat, can not make a career out of playing cards and be an honest player.

Gambling is the intential fleecing of a fool from his money. And in playing, you are either winning or losing. You are either the winner or the fool. Like it or not, it is a legitimate business. Vegas does it... How do you think those casinos have made it big? The house cheats like mad. Gambling it self is an intentional dishonest act. A lie. A deception. Mental buggery.

So lets not venture in to gray areas of "cheating." There are cheaters and there are gamblers. Can anybody honestly tell the difference? it's all a pretty illusion.

[Rhydderch Hael]

I'm reminded of a seminar where this very issue was subjected to a demonstration: the speaker dared anyone to procure an unassuming, store-bought deck of cards, and he would be able to "read" the backs to prove that any and every deck of cards possessed some form of marking.

Shuffled and drawn, he would stand there at his podium and hold the card face out to the crowd while looking at its back. He stated the identity of each and every attempt with 100% accuracy, thus cementing the veracity of his claim.

What really happened was that the speaker had a mirror installed at the top edge of the podium. When he held up each card for the audience to regard, he was reading the reflection. He had to cheat on a perfectly honest deck in order to lay claim that cheating was a rampant practice.

[Doc]

I'm reminded of a seminar where this very issue was subjected to a demonstration: the speaker dared anyone to procure an unassuming, store-bought deck of cards, and he would be able to "read" the backs to prove that any and every deck of cards possessed some form of marking.

Shuffled and drawn, he would stand there at his podium and hold the card face out to the crowd while looking at its back. He stated the identity of each and every attempt with 100% accuracy, thus cementing the veracity of his claim.

What really happened was that the speaker had a mirror installed at the top edge of the podium. When he held up each card for the audience to regard, he was reading the reflection. He had to cheat on a perfectly honest deck in order to lay claim that cheating was a rampant practice.
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Heh. Some vaguely resembling irony in that post. :lol:

That's pretty funny actually!

[SwissMercenary]

Occhi, in pro poker, or pro gambling, there is no "cheating."

Only consumate professionals that ply their trade. It's how some people make their living. Seen all those guys on tv lately playing poker? They do it to. And if you don't, somebody else will.

'Everyone does it' makes for poor justification for... Well, just about anything.

[Doc]

'Everyone does it' makes for poor justification for... Well, just about anything.
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But it's an acceptable practice in the business. It's what seperates the pros from the guys who provide the pros with a steady income.

The only thing not acceptable in the business is getting sloppy or getting caught.

It's not about justification. Nobody gives a rat's ass about that. This is a career built on lies and deception. Trust me, justification is the least of their concerns. It is an openly dishonest profession. They are just another magician, only instead of making crappy money at kid's birthday parties, they are wowing idiots gathered around a little round table. It's the same thing. Magicians lie, and nobody gets hurt. A rabbit gets pulled out of a hat, and cards magically appear from strange places. Card sharps do the same thing, except they fleece fools from their money. It's all a cheap magic act to fool the simple minded. It's not cheating... It's business. Plain and simple. When you watch a magic show on stage, that man is lying to you. And you choose to buy it. You believe in the magic. Because you want to. You are entertained. You pay to watch. Same thing as sitting down at the table with a card sharp. You are paying to see an act. It's all an elaborate sham. When you sit down willingly to play a game that involves deception and lies, there is no "cheating." There is only people who are better at deception and lying than you are. If you don't like it, go do something honest.

It's really very simple.

Edit.

Let me put this another way.

If you sit down at a table with me, it becomes my job to give you exactly what you came for. A game. An entertaining game.

I will charm you, gain your confidence, stroke your ego, allow you to think you are winning, make you feel good, allow you a brief moment of feeling like you at the top of the world, I will allow you to feel extreme joy at knowing that you are having wonderful luck this night.

But at the end of the night, I am going home with more money than I came with. It's called profit, and I expect to be paid for my time. So long as I provided a valuable service, which is making you feel good about your self and have a nice time, I get to go to sleep and night and wake up the next day guilt free. I put on a show. So do plenty of other people who play this game. We provide a service just anybody else, and, just like any other working stiff, we have to be paid. And we have tools in our profession that insure we get our cut.

Mind you, I have never considered my self a professional. I play for fun. I play for keeps too, but I like to have fun doing it.

:D

[Occhidiangela]

The only thing not acceptable in the business is getting sloppy or getting caught.

This is a career built on lies and deception. Trust me, justification is the least of their concerns. It is an openly dishonest profession.

When you watch a magic show on stage, that man is lying to you. And you choose to buy it. You believe in the magic.  Because you want to. You are entertained. You pay to watch.

Same thing as sitting down at the table with a card sharp.

I disagree with you, as you sit down to play to win, not to be entertained.

You are paying to see an act. It's all an elaborate sham. [right][snapback]100250[/snapback][/right]

I am not as sure as you are that people who play poker for money are there for a show.

Your line of argument suggests that the World Series of Poker is rigged. Played only by con men.

Plasuible, not sure of its likelihood. TV is entertainment. The folks who get to the finals all profit from "the big con" that their poker playing skill and luck is not a result of cheating at cards. Rake in the TV dough, sell their books, the whole thing is a con.

Could be. :whistling:

I have played poker without cheating and walked away from the table a few hundred dollars richer, I have done the same and walked away some dollars poorer.

On this same topic, since you assert that cheating is fundamental to poker, please explain internet poker's success. Without a belief that the game is not rigged, few will play for money.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

I'm reminded of a seminar where this very issue was subjected to a demonstration: the speaker dared anyone to procure an unassuming, store-bought deck of cards, and he would be able to "read" the backs to prove that any and every deck of cards possessed some form of marking.
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Sweet. :lol:

Occhi

[jahcs]

Doc,

What you refer to is a con, cheating, or marketing, but not gambling. Gambling is betting on a chance.

The games played in casinos have rules to give the house an edge. A few players might win but overall, but in the long term, the house rakes it in.

There is a difference between a Professional Gambler and a Professional Cheat. You describe the latter. Whether or not there are Professional Gamblers out there is another toopic...

[Doc]

Doc,

What you refer to is a con, cheating, or marketing, but not gambling.  Gambling is betting on a chance.

The games played in casinos have rules to give the house an edge.  A few players might win but overall, but in the long term, the house rakes it in.

There is a difference between a Professional Gambler and a Professional Cheat.  You describe the latter.  Whether or not there are Professional Gamblers out there is another toopic...
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Gambling is merely hedging your bets to your own advantage. Rigging the odds. Sorry, but I will never see that as outright cheating. You lay your money down. It's your responsibility to get it back, one means or another. Honest gambling is an oxymoron of sorts. You lie. It's all layed with dishonesty. Bluffing is just another form of cheating. You are intentionally and actively lying to increase the odds in your favour. Keeping track of somebody's tells... That's just another form of cheating. Rigging the odds in your favour. If you bluff or tally tells, you may as well stoop a little lower, because you are guilty of cheating no matter how you try to weasel out of it.

With casual friends, you play honest. You drink, you laugh, you snack, you play for pennies.

When out to make money, you do what it takes.

And yes, the players on tv... They have big shiny buckles, boots, glasses, the whole bit. Some even wear neckties. Vests. Once you know the illusion, it's easy to spot it. And I have watched them actually nick a card or two the old fashioned way with their fingernail. They reach up behind their ear to rub or scratch, but in reality they are accessing their little spot of oil to mark a card so they can track it. It's all a sham. Just like wrestling. Fraud. It's all a CON. And there are suckers that think it's good tv, who in turn think they can con the public in to thinking this is some sort of actual game, when in reality it is all a multi-layered sham where there are so many people conning each other it's hard to tell where one con ends and another begins. It's no sport. And to anybody that believes it is, with a bunch of honest guys sitting around a table behaving themselves, I have a bridge to sell you.

As for internet poker, I would never play. For the same reason I do not gamble in casinos. It is rigged so that the house gets the lion's share. Not my cup of tea. And I do not trust a game where electronic cards are dealt.

[Occhidiangela]

Honest gambling is an oxymoron of sorts. You lie. It's all layed with dishonesty.

Not casino craps.

Bluffing is just another form of cheating.

It's within the rules of the game, and its spirit (if poker is the game) thus bluffing is most emphatically NOT cheating.

And I do not trust a game where electronic cards are dealt.
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I agree with you, I won't either, but that doesn't answer my question.

Occhi

[jahcs]

Gambling is merely hedging your bets to your own advantage. Rigging the odds. Sorry, but I will never see that as outright cheating. You lay your money down. It's your responsibility to get it back, one means or another. Honest gambling is an oxymoron of sorts. You lie. It's all layed with dishonesty. Bluffing is just another form of cheating. You are intentionally and actively lying to increase the odds in your favour. Keeping track of somebody's tells... That's just another form of cheating. Rigging the odds in your favour. If you bluff or tally tells, you may as well stoop a little lower, because you are guilty of cheating no matter how you try to weasel out of it.
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"Smart" gambling, hedging your bets, playing the odds, etc, isn't cheating.

Bluffing is not cheating, it is a legal play. A bluff is a bet to win. You bet the other guy will lay down instead of calling. It may be a lie or simply playing on people's perceptions, but it is not cheating. Playing with amateurs is dangerous, they will play anything and they don't know the difference between a bad bet and a bluff.

Watching for tells is not cheating either. You are using all your senses to try and predict what the other gambler is doing.

Marking cards, swapping decks, skimming the pot, those are cheats. Covering the spread, bluffing, and just simply paying attention are not.

Card counting isn't cheating either, but try it in Vegas... :P

[Doc]

"Smart" gambling, hedging your bets, playing the odds, etc, isn't cheating.

Bluffing is not cheating, it is a legal play.  A bluff is a bet to win.  You bet the other guy will lay down instead of calling.  It may be a lie or simply playing on people's perceptions, but it is not cheating.  Playing with amateurs is dangerous, they will play anything and they don't know the difference between a bad bet and a bluff.

Watching for tells is not cheating either.  You are using all your senses to try and predict what the other gambler is doing.

Marking cards, swapping decks, skimming the pot, those are cheats.  Covering the spread, bluffing, and just simply paying attention are not.

Card counting isn't cheating either, but try it in Vegas... :P
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This is like Occhi discussing the death penalty in the other thread.

Sigh. I will come right out and say it, I am scum. I have been trying to tell everybody that. Deep down, I am scum. But I am scum that goes home with his money at the end of the night.

I blame it on my upbringing! :P

Oh, and if by fate, we ever got together to play cards.... I would play honest with you folk. :whistling:

[Archon_Wing]

Haha.
I just finished after playing poker after a ridiclously cold deck and I see the word "suckout"

Let's see... my draw looks pretty good. About 3:1 to hit. Wait, how come it hasn't hit in the last week or so?

:D

It happens to the best of us. ;)

I also get really frustrated when the cards don't go my way. I might "tilt" and start playing badly, but that's when I tell myself to just take a break. Remember, never take your anger out on your chips! There is no greater sin then insisting on trying to break even

[Archon_Wing]

Once, not so long ago, during a cross-country meet, I was playing poker with some of my friends.  (No-Limit Hold'Em, FYI)

I was dealt a decent hand of a Q8 (or something like that) and put in a dollar to see the flop.  Out comes Q88.  I'm ecstatic, but want to play it cool, so I call.  My friends raises $5, and I snicker to myself, what with my full house hand winking up at me.  I bet $20, thinking that my friend would fold and I could pick up an easy $5.  But he calls.

I'm more confused than worried.  I have a full house, and it's solid.  The next card comes out 9.  I'm relieved.  I raise another $5, and my friend counter-raises me another $15, so the total in the pot is now $40.  By now, I know my friend is either trying to buy his way out of the hand or is seriously bluffing.  The last card comes out a 9.

I'm overjoyed.  I got this.  This is MINE.  I flip my hand over, congratulating my friend and smiling to myself....

....as my friend turns over Q9.

I kid you not.

I had QQ888, he had QQ999.   

$40.  Gone.  Wasted.

To this day I still think he rigged the deck.
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Noob, fold Q8 preflop. :D But that is incredibly unfortunate- Only three cards help him on the river, the 2 remaining Qs and a 9. :/

But wait, hindsight is 20/20, right. :(



Luck based games can be really frustrating, it just has us yelling BAD BEET!

One that I remember: ;p
A5 vs KQ
Flop AAX <<< -- forgot X, doesn't matter
Only one thing can save him- exactly a J and a 10 must fall to give him a straight.
You know the rest. ;)

[Archon_Wing]

Twice I was in a 6 person game with a twenty dollar buy in.&nbsp; First time I had QJ and a&nbsp; 10 down straight flopped.&nbsp; I figured I'd at worst split if someone had my hand.&nbsp; What happened the first time?&nbsp; Got beat out by a flush.

Second time?&nbsp; Beat out by a flush.

I decided after the second time I should take it as a sign, and stop playing poker for money.&nbsp; :P

Cheers,

Munk
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That ranks pretty low on the bad beat scale. If there were already 3 of a suit there, then you might have been incorrect in putting all your chips in.

This, however, ranks high on the "that really sucks" scale. :)

[Occhidiangela]

Oh, and if by fate, we ever got together to play cards.... I would play honest with you folk. :whistling:
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And I have a bridge to sell you . . .

Occhi

[whyBish]

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Funny thing is, I was agreeing with all your posts until that one. Doesn't comparing gambling to a business then mean that bluffing is committing fraud?

I agree on the putting on a show analogy. Just like wrestling.

[Doc]

Funny thing is, I was agreeing with all your posts until that one.&nbsp; Doesn't comparing gambling to a business then mean that bluffing is committing fraud?

I agree on the putting on a show analogy.&nbsp; Just like wrestling.
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Bluffing is fraud.

How could it not be?

You are lying through your teeth, intentionally creating an act of deception.

That is fraudulent.