PvP at 20-29 -- an organized group? (Terenas)

[vor_lord]

I'm putting this in the Meeting Stone mostly because a twinked out level 29 is not a unique idea, and plus I know we have several interested in doing organized PvP at this level (Ooh and Aah, Urza's shaman, Xame's shaman at the least).

I've decided to twink up Aah at this level range and play her for a while. The rogue gets a lot more fun tools at this bracket than in 10-19. I figure I'll do mostly WSG but also want to try out AB at this level.

It'd be fun to get together and do some organized PvP, rolling over the PUGs (and avoiding the uber-twinks you find in there).

So there's the first part of this post -- who's interested in joining me?


The second part is a request for help. I've put together a preliminary list of gear. I'm not going all out on this -- I have the money, but I also have a desire to get this rogue to 60 so spending a fortune isn't worth it to me. So I've picked pieces of gear that are reasonable to attain, with some help from others and some time invested.

Many of the items are crafted and I will need help from some guild leatherworkers. I will get the materials for them, just need to know who is wiling to make each one.

DAGGER:
Toxic Revenger: http://thottbot.com/?i=9007
Farmable drop in Gnomeregan
Sheep popping dagger but nothing else comes close to it from what I can tell

MAIN HAND SWORD:
Zealot Blade: http://thottbot.com/?i=8824
Random SM drop
This item will be pricey, and I am hoping to snipe it off the AH. Typically goes for about 75g. I'm also looking for a second best choice that is easier to obtain. I remember this dropped for Jandrey a few months back and I laughed at an int/spi sword, but for a level 29 rogue it can't be beat.

PANTS:
Triprunner Dungarees: http://thottbot.com/?i=2281
Gnomeregan Quest reward, obtainable at level 25

WRIST:
Barbaric Bracers: http://thottbot.com/?i=40350
Crafted

HANDS:
Toughened Leather Gloves: http://thottbot.com/?i=1411
Crafted
I already have a pair of these -- there are better ones at this level but not easy to get

CHEST:
Blackened Defias Armor: http://thottbot.com/?i=7076
These drop from Van Cleef in the Deadmines.
I was surprised to see they are still the best thing I can get for 29.
Will require some help farming these. It may be that VoiceMan and I can trade off escorting our rogues through, but it'd be really nice for both of us to come along if we can get someone to help us.
I'm also not opposed to doing an at level Deadmines run -- I really miss the Deadmines.

HEAD:
Humbert's Helm: http://thottbot.com/?i=6779
This is totally irreplaceable, and I can solo farm this with Necrali

FEET:
Warsong Boots: http://thottbot.com/?i=4134
Ashenvale quest we all know and love

SHOULDERS:
Earthen Leather Shoulders: http://thottbot.com/?i=7718
Crafted

WAIST:
Dark Leather Belt: http://thottbot.com/?i=1412
Crafted

So at some point it'd be great to get some help doing Deadmines and Gnomeregan, and there are several crafted pieces I would like help getting made.


I also will be posting a response in this thread later about a talent spec for this level but I'm out of time for now.

I also will be wanting enchants, basically as much +sta as I can reasonably attain and afford, but I haven't looked into that yet either.

[Darian]

I think a certain synikal orc warrior might be interested in a little of that action, depending on my brutal Stormrage sentence^Werr, I mean, schedule.

[VoiceMan]

Of course, Aah's Sinister Rogue Twin Sister Ooh is certainly interested in this. I also am hoping to twink Ooh out to a large degree, mostly in the form of weapons. I'm interested in handing out sick damage. :) I've never seen Deadmines..so I'm up for that completely. I also know that Klaus is interested in bringing his mage...which also reminds me......where are we with ICP?

One thought though....I don't think our chances are good of seeing much AB at the 20-29 bracket. Possibly on the AB extra honor weekends...but AB is a larger map, where mounts are almost a need. It seems that the lower level brackets don't play AB. However, since 1.9 where you can que up for more than one BG at a time, that may be different, but I would not be surprised to see mainly WSG til 40. We'll also need to decide what level we want to enter the heavy WSG play. In your 20's, you can actually level up through nothing but WSG. Do we start at 26 once we get our 26 skills? Or do we want to wait til 28? We'll be able to get alot of matches in from 28-29, but we will level up through just BG play, and then once that big 30 hits.....you're gimped again til about 36. :)

[Klaus]

I would be interested in joining in. I have a lvl 24 mage I can bring.

[Concillian]

I may be interested. Depends on how quick my druid gets into that level range (currently 16 or 17, I think)

[Alram]

I'm putting this in the Meeting Stone mostly because a twinked out level 29 is not a unique idea, and plus I know we have several interested in doing organized PvP at this level (Ooh and Aah, Urza's shaman, Xame's shaman at the least).

I've decided to twink up Aah at this level range and play her for a while.  The rogue gets a lot more fun tools at this bracket than in 10-19.  I figure I'll do mostly WSG but also want to try out AB at this level.

It'd be fun to get together and do some organized PvP, rolling over the PUGs (and avoiding the uber-twinks you find in there).

So there's the first part of this post -- who's interested in joining me?
The second part is a request for help.  I've put together a preliminary list of gear.  I'm not going all out on this -- I have the money, but I also have a desire to get this rogue to 60 so spending a fortune isn't worth it to me.  So I've picked pieces of gear that are reasonable to attain, with some help from others and some time invested.

Many of the items are crafted and I will need help from some guild leatherworkers.  I will get the materials for them, just need to know who is wiling to make each one.

DAGGER:
Toxic Revenger: http://thottbot.com/?i=9007
Farmable drop in Gnomeregan
Sheep popping dagger but nothing else comes close to it from what I can tell

MAIN HAND SWORD:
Zealot Blade: http://thottbot.com/?i=8824
Random SM drop
This item will be pricey, and I am hoping to snipe it off the AH.  Typically goes for about 75g.  I'm also looking for a second best choice that is easier to obtain.  I remember this dropped for Jandrey a few months back and I laughed at an int/spi sword, but for a level 29 rogue it can't be beat.

PANTS:
Triprunner Dungarees: http://thottbot.com/?i=2281 
Gnomeregan Quest reward, obtainable at level 25

WRIST:
Barbaric Bracers: http://thottbot.com/?i=40350
Crafted

HANDS:
Toughened Leather Gloves: http://thottbot.com/?i=1411
Crafted
I already have a pair of these -- there are better ones at this level but not easy to get

CHEST:
Blackened Defias Armor: http://thottbot.com/?i=7076
These drop from Van Cleef in the Deadmines.
I was surprised to see they are still the best thing I can get for 29.
Will require some help farming these.  It may be that VoiceMan and I can trade off escorting our rogues through, but it'd be really nice for both of us to come along if we can get someone to help us.
I'm also not opposed to doing an at level Deadmines run -- I really miss the Deadmines.

HEAD:
Humbert's Helm: http://thottbot.com/?i=6779
This is totally irreplaceable, and I can solo farm this with Necrali

FEET:
Warsong Boots: http://thottbot.com/?i=4134
Ashenvale quest we all know and love

SHOULDERS:
Earthen Leather Shoulders: http://thottbot.com/?i=7718
Crafted

WAIST:
Dark Leather Belt: http://thottbot.com/?i=1412
Crafted

So at some point it'd be great to get some help doing Deadmines and Gnomeregan, and there are several crafted pieces I would like help getting made.
I also will be posting a response in this thread later about a talent spec for this level but I'm out of time for now.

I also will be wanting enchants, basically as much +sta as I can reasonably attain and afford, but I haven't looked into that yet either.
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I've got a couple of toons in the 20's that need reasons to play, so I would be happy to join you now and then.

As far as your equipment choices I have a few suggestions.

Dagger
Toxic Revenger is a great dagger. Swinetusk Shank in RFK is a better choice imo.

Swinetusk Shank
Binds when picked up
Unique
One-Hand Dagger
24 - 45 Damage Speed 1.50
(23.0 damage per second)
+6 Stamina
+4 Spirit

1. It is easier to farm with about a 50% drop rate; Agathelos the Raging either drops the dagger or Ferine Leggings. He is harder to get to than Viscous Fallout, but I once spent a couple of hours farming for Toxic Revenger with another rogue and got a lot of Hydrocanes and cloth drops--no dagger.
2. There is no risk of breaking sheep or more importantly Gouge.


Sword
Outlaw Sabre
Binds when picked up
One-Hand Sword
35 - 67 Damage Speed 2.70
(18.9 damage per second)
Equip: +15 Attack Power.
This a quest reward from BFD. It is therefore easy to get, and it is a terrific weapon.

Shoulders
Mantle of Thieves
Binds when equipped
Shoulder Leather
77 Armor
+10 Agility
+4 Stamina
+3 Spirit
This is a random RFK drop.

Gloves
Wolfclaw Gloves
Binds when equipped
Hands Leather
61 Armor
+5 Strength
+6 Agility
+6 Stamina
Another random RFK drop.

Bracers
The 1st Sergeant bracers you get as PVP reward are top notch.


It looks to me like you should be farming RFK.

I'd go for +agility rather than +stamina. When a rogue begins dropping too much health he vanishes, sprints, blinds, gouges or runs.

I hope this feedback is helpful.

[Treesh]

I've got a few options for PvP in the 20-29 bracket. :) Rogue, warrior, druid or shaman (iirc). WSG and I have a history together, but one of these days I'll find a character class that doesn't frustrate the hell out of me in there. ;)

Edit: Yeah, I need to update my sig. And I forgot all about my hunter! I got lots of classes to try. :D

[vor_lord]

In your 20's, you can actually level up through nothing but WSG. 
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I thought you didn't get any exp until you turn in the marks. Can't you just stop turning them in once you get close to leveling if you don't want to?

I suppose to make a permanent character that intends to get enough rep to buy top items at that bracket would have to worry a lot more. It just seems rep grind in WSG is extremely slow, and you could wait to turn in the marks if you were in danger of leveling.

[Concillian]

I suppose to make a permanent character that intends to get enough rep to buy top items at that bracket would have to worry a lot more.  It just seems rep grind in WSG is extremely slow, and you could wait to turn in the marks if you were in danger of leveling.
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Rep grind in WSG is quite slow, you do get rep for winning now, even if you don't turn in the marks.

Marks are unique (20), so you can't save up tons. If rep grind is your thing, you probably want to start around level 25 so you can turn in marks and not worry about the EXP you get. Teamwork can help make up for the level deficiency.

[vor_lord]

I've got a couple of toons in the 20's that need reasons to play, so I would be happy to join you now and then. 

As far as your equipment choices I have a few suggestions.

Dagger
Toxic Revenger is a great dagger. Swinetusk Shank in RFK is a better choice imo.

Swinetusk Shank
Binds when picked up
Unique
One-Hand Dagger
24 - 45 Damage Speed 1.50
(23.0 damage per second)
+6 Stamina
+4 Spirit

It unfortunately requires level 30 ;)

2. There is no risk of breaking sheep or more importantly Gouge.
Sword
Outlaw Sabre
Binds when picked up
One-Hand Sword
35 - 67 Damage Speed 2.70
(18.9 damage per second)
Equip: +15 Attack Power.
This a quest reward from BFD. It is therefore easy to get, and it is a terrific weapon.

Thank you for this, I haven't had a meleer on the Horde side get that far yet. This is a fine backup weapon that should be a lot cheaper.

Mantle of Thieves
...
Wolfclaw Gloves

I know about these, but they are hard to obtain and expensive. I figured it would be worth it to buy one for a weapon, but random drop farming I was trying to avoid. I'd sure love to have them but don't expect to. By all means if I can find one they would be great.

The helm I'm farming is a 2% drop from Dun Garok Riflemen -- they are outside, and there are quite a few of them, so my odds of getting it are a lot better.

Bracers
The 1st Sergeant bracers you get as PVP reward are top notch

Hmmm, if I can manage 1st Sergeant at level 28-29 that would be great. However, while there are a lot of Sergeants at 20-29 on Terenas, there are no First Sergeants on the list. I don't want to pretend I will do better than everyone else, especially since I'm a newbie to PvP anyway.

I'd go for +agility rather than +stamina.  When a rogue begins dropping too much health he vanishes, sprints, blinds, gouges or runs.

I'll keep that in mind. At level 20 I don't have much of those so I was just guessing. All I know is that 10-19 WSG can be totally dominated by a character of any class with enough stamina.

Ever face Snowpeaz? Level 19 mage with 1330 HP. She can easily handle two normal characters with relatively little skill, possibly three with sheep (although size of mana pool might be an issue depending on the tradeoffs). There are also some Alliance twinked warriors and rogues who have a ton of HP. When I see them I just sap them and run away.

Horde also has Antisnowpeaz ;)

I hope this feedback is helpful.

It is, thank you. I definitely will be also wanting help with a low level talent spec for this purpose.

edit: Clarified a couple things

[VoiceMan]

That is true...you don't get exp til you turn in the marks. Limit of marks you can hold without turning them in is 20.

[VoiceMan]

Heheh......in my experiences...WSG, or any Battleground for that matter will frustrate the hell out of you. Ganks, poor team play, etc. ;)

[Alram]

You will lose rep and experience if you attempt to hold more than 20 marks of honor. Agh, my warrior, is a toon dedicated to PVP. From level *0-*4 he quests. From *5-*9 he does WSG or other BG exclusively. When playing BG you will level slowly. I do not view it as a liability; I really enjoy the pace of WSG.

You will need to do some questing in order to earn cash or get certain equipment. You will also find yourself skipping many quests.

Your talent specs will be driven by BG PVP. These might vary from the usual formulaic PVE or PVP builds or might not.

When waiting for a BG to open up there can be a lot of downtime. You can type:
/who warsong gulch
You can then whisper somebody currently playing for an idea as to how much longer it will be. It is good to have something to do while you wait such as mining, skilling up a weapon, helping a lower level guildie, etc. so that your time is well spent. Ideally you want to avoid levelling at this time.

[Treesh]

Heheh......in my experiences...WSG, or any Battleground for that matter will frustrate the hell out of you.  Ganks, poor team play, etc.  ;)
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Quiet you! Quit bringing up facts when I'm trying to make a point. ;)

[Sheep]

YEAH!

Sheepcarcass the mage is in for 20-29! I just need to level him a bit more, preferably until I max out IAE at 25.

I remember Snowpeaz... :ph34r:

[Concillian]

It is, thank you.  I definitely will be also wanting help with a low level talent spec for this purpose.
[right][snapback]99184[/snapback][/right]

At 29 you can't get any of the 21 point talents that are really cool. You need Improved SS, so you really have 18 points to play with. So you have a few options. This is what I came up with from the top of my head:

1) Improved Sap + Improved Ambush. Seems kinda 'meh' from a high level perspective, but at that level you don't have Cheap Shot yet, so ambush or garrotte are the openers of choice, and this increases the damage of those pretty significantly. Don't discount the occasional usefulness of Garrotte. It can't be dispelled (except by a bubble) and damage is not reduced by armor. It also does pretty decent damage at that level when fully talented. Nice for pallies and warriors, or those druids that are just going to run away anyway. It and Rupture are of limited use in PvP because they are DOTs, but if you notice you are up against people who aren't cross healing, they do more damage to heavily armored targets than your direct damage options.

2) Improved Sprint + Riposte + 5 points in Malice + 1/2 in Murder (or 2/3 in imp. sprint and 2/2 in Murder) I think that has a lot of useful WSG skills, more concentration on sustained damage with +crit instead of improving specific skills. Riposte is really nice in 1 on 1 situations... when you parry.

3) Like #2 but instead of 5/5 malice, get 2/2 Improved kick + 2/5 Malice. Better for mages and other casters, lower damage output.

I don't really see 18 points in assassination being all that great. The beauty of 2 & 3 is that they don't need ALL the points to have most of their utility. If Malice is the last thing you add points to, you can have most of the 'utility' skills from level 25.

[vor_lord]

At 29 you can't get any of the 21 point talents that are really cool.  You need Improved SS, so you really have 18 points to play with.  So you have a few options.  This is what I came up with from the top of my head:

1) Improved Sap + Improved Ambush.  Seems kinda 'meh' from a high level perspective, but at that level you don't have Cheap Shot yet, so ambush or garrotte are the openers of choice, and this increases the damage of those pretty significantly.  Don't discount the occasional usefulness of Garrotte.  It can't be dispelled (except by a bubble) and damage is not reduced by armor.  It also does pretty decent damage at that level when fully talented.  Nice for pallies and warriors, or those druids that are just going to run away anyway.  It and Rupture are of limited use in PvP because they are DOTs, but if you notice you are up against people who aren't cross healing, they do more damage to heavily armored targets than your direct damage options. 

Acc. to thott I get Cheapshot at level 26. I do like the fun of big ambush crits, and Improved Sap vs. PUGs sounds like a lot of fun. However, since I won't be running instances, and will have Cheapshot, I was leaning away from this approach. Might depend on if I end up getting the weapons I want or not.

2) Improved Sprint + Riposte + 5 points in Malice + 1/2 in Murder (or 2/3 in imp. sprint and 2/2 in Murder)  I think that has a lot of useful WSG skills, more concentration on sustained damage with +crit instead of improving specific skills.  Riposte is really nice in 1 on 1 situations... when you parry.

3) Like #2 but instead of 5/5 malice, get 2/2 Improved kick + 2/5 Malice.  Better for mages and other casters, lower damage output.
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Your #2 is very much like what I was planning to post here. I went against a warrior and a mage doing flag defense. I missed the sap... and the ARGH! feeling still hasn't left me. Hence I'd probably lean towards getting that point in murder and therefore not improved kick, as nice as that would be vs. mages.

I really want riposte, as that is a great tool against rogues and warriors. So far most of my opponents have been better geared and it's been tough to take out those twinked rogues and warriors.

The #1 build does have appeal though. Where would you put the subtlety tree points for the the first tier? Something like:This?

I am not sure which would be better for this purpose, MoD or Camo. Ghostly Strike might be worth a point vs. rogues and paladins.

The subtlety build is a lot closer to my eventual Hemo plans but that won't include Improved Sinister Strike so a respec would still be needed.

edit: Fixed link -- the one I had at first had Improved Rupture instead of Improved Sap

[Concillian]

I am not sure which would be better for this purpose, MoD or Camo.  Ghostly Strike might be worth a point vs. rogues and paladins.
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I would think the mobility of Camo more important. If you'll be on the upper end of the level range, detection shouldn't be a huge issue. My rogue has both, but is 60.

For some reason I was thinking that CS didn't come until 32. Not sure why.

Maybe one of the brothers goes the route of Improved Sap + DOTs and the other on riposte, sprint and malice. That's the thing though, Imp. Sap means no Murder.

The rogue talent trees are good, there are lots of tough decisions. But like Treesh likes to say, you can't really make a bad rogue.

[Kevin]

I would think the mobility of Camo more important. If you'll be on the upper end of the level range, detection shouldn't be a huge issue.  My rogue has both, but is 60.

For some reason I was thinking that CS didn't come until 32.  Not sure why.

Maybe one of the brothers goes the route of Improved Sap + DOTs and the other on riposte, sprint and malice.  That's the thing though, Imp. Sap means no Murder.

The rogue talent trees are good, there are lots of tough decisions.  But like Treesh likes to say, you can't really make a bad rogue.
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Kidney shot doesn't come till 30 maybe that is what you were thinking of? Kidney shot rocks.

[Alram]

Enchantments
I forgot to mention in my previous post what I would consider to be the most important enchantment for Warsong Gulch: minor speed increase on your boots. Speed of movement is critical and this enchantment will give you an edge over the competition.

Rogue Talents
You will be building a rogue specifically for playing in Warsong Gulch. The requirements here are different from those in PVE and any other type of PVP. The primary strengths of the rogue will be his ability to operate unseen and his ability to incapacitate an opponent; his ability to sprint is also of important significance. There are many occasions in Warsong Gulch where it is more important to be able to stun or incapacitate an opponent rather than kill him. Your talent selections should therefore maximize these abilities. I recommend that you invest points in the following talents; any other points you have available you can place in whatever talents intrigue you. Note that I am not restricting myself here to talents which are available prior to level 30. I am intentionally doing this so that if you choose to follow my model you can plan ahead.

Subtlety Tree
Master of Deception rank 5/5
Camouflage rank 5/5
Improved Sap rank 3/3
Preparation - rank 1/1
Improved Cheap Shot - rank 2/2

Also please consider:
Elusiveness

Combat Tree
Improved Gouge - rank 3/3
Gouge is incredibly and uniquely useful in Warsong Gulch. As you run toward an opponent you gouge him and run past him effectively taking him out of action.
Improved Sinister Strike - rank 2/2
This talent does not meet the criteria I outlined in the beginning, however it is indispensable for a rogue. Your first two points should go here.

Also please consider:
Improved Sprint

Avoid:
Lightning Reflexes
The warriors will chew you up.

Assassination Tree
This tree definitely does not improve your stealth or stun capabilities with the exception of Improved Kidney Shot. Improved Kidney Shot is in tier 5 requiring substantial investment in Assassination talents, so I thought I would give an opinion about which of these to pick should you choose to go for Improved Kidney Shot.

edit: Removed Opportunity.
edit: Correction made on number of points to place in improved Cheap Shot.