Paladin Concern Summary

[Kevin]

But I thought only Sharanna didn't take Spiritual Focus!  :o  Being a first tier talent, and transformative, I just made an assumption.

Your point is particularly well taken with 1.9 when the talent moves down the tree.
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Nope Sharanna is one of our last Bastions of hope that they will make paladins more versatile and viable for other roles but not the only one. Even in 1.8 others who wanted a tankadin would get 21 deep in retribution for consecrate and just not get repentance.

[Tal]

Nope Sharanna is one of our last Bastions of hope that they will make paladins more versatile and viable for other roles but not the only one.  Even in 1.8 others who wanted a tankadin would get 21 deep in retribution for consecrate and just not get repentance.
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For those curious I'm looking at a shieldmaiden approach since Shar has a Deathbringer:

Protection Talents - 32 points
Redoubt rank 5/5
Precision rank 3/3
Toughness rank 5/5
Blessing of Kings rank 1/1
Improved Righteous Fury rank 3/3
Shield Specialization rank 3/3
Anticipation rank 5/5
Blessing of Sanctuary rank 1/1
One-Handed Weapon Specialization rank 5/5
Holy Shield rank 1/1

Retribution Talents - 19 points
Improved Blessing of Might rank 5/5 or Benediction rank 5/5
Deflection rank 5/5
Vindication rank 3/3
Conviction rank 5/5
Seal of Command rank 1/1

Problem is that the best tanking talents go contrary to established tanking procedure. Avoid + to defense because a lot of the specials rely upon crits, more intellect for judging and firing seals...

Edit: I do have to state that these "awesome new changes" :rolleyes: have pretty much depressed me on the viability of playing Sharanna as anything but a buffbot.

[Warlock]

As an off tank I'd rather use a Paladin (self heal while in plate) than either a Druid (plate equivalent but limited self healing) or a Shaman (mail). Threat doesn't matter much when offtanking a single target in my experience.

As a main tank I don't think Paladins should overall match a Druid because Druids can't easily access their other abilities while tanking.

I think Paladins are about right in terms of power at the moment - I'm always happy to have them in my groups, whether 5-man or raid. I do think they need to be more interesting to play than they are.

[savaughn]

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That depends entirely on when you have to pick up the offtank. If you're starting out with it, you need to stay ahead of the healer. If you have to pick up something that breaks and heads to a squishy ... then threat is very critical.

It's this second thing that paladins look to be unable to do in 1.9.

[oldmandennis]

Shaman get talents that transform playstyle in how they can deal both melee and castable DPS (2 handed axes and maces is a talent otherwise only 2 hander is a staff), flurry and stormstrike also change melee DPS delivery via talents.
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Oh yeah, never mention this again. Stormstrike is probably the single biggest reason shaman are ahead of mages and rogues for talent reviews.

[Ashkael]

Also, I don't know if Garr is concievable without any locks.  At some point he starts blowing up his adds, if they aren't banished.  Once they are all gone, he summons mini adds that immediatly explode, knocking the MT all over the place.  Unless he is close to dead, its probably game over.
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My guild has done Garr (and Lava Packs) with no Warlocks. We set up three teams of 2 hunters each to keep the adds chain Freeze Trapped, and had enough warriors to offtank the other adds. We killed 6 out of 8 adds, and kept the remaining 2 chain Freeze Trapped while we worked on Garr (which takes AGES when all the adds are down).

[Ashkael]

I've never played a paladin (nor an Alliance character for that matter). I hear people complaining about how underpowered paladins are and how overpowered shamans are every day.

Judging by some of the paladin's abilities (Blessing of Salvation, Cleanse and Lay on Hands), it would seem to me that paladins are far much more useful in PvE than shamans are. Just the fact that Horde get 1 class that can dispel (which got its mana cost tripled in patch 1.9) and Alliance gets two classes is enough proof I guess. Then there's Blessing of Salvation which makes aggro sensitive fights such as Onyxia and Vael a joke (my guild is still ironing out the Vael fight and the occasional rogue pulls aggro now and then).

In terms of PvP, I would say Paladins are more useful than shamans when it comes to battlegrounds. In Arathi Basin, a lone Paladin can single handedly make it impossible for 15 horde to cap a flag long enough for reinforcements to arrive. When it comes to WSG, two or three paladins chain spamming Blessing of Freedom and Cleanse, not to mention healing the flag carrier from behind their invulnerability shields and toss in their IWIN buttong (Lay On Hands) and it's just too much. Most of the organize WSG teams on my server stock up on paladins for this reason.

In terms of DPS, well what can I say. I play a mage, and I've been critted for 800 to 1000 damage by paladins wielding arcanite reapers in PvP. Don't even get me started with those reckoning bombs.

Again, I don't know much about the class or how their talent trees are laid out. I am just offering my 0.02 cents form a Horde player's perspective on why I think paladins are pretty powerful as it is right now. I don't know what the heck Blizzard did with your talents (that new Eye For an Eye thing is completely disgusting, completely nerfs the mage crit build for PvP and it's a passive to boot), I just don't really understand all the whining about paladins being underpowered.

[Tal]

Again, I don't know much about the class or how their talent trees are laid out. I am just offering my 0.02 cents form a Horde player's perspective on why I think paladins are pretty powerful as it is right now. I don't know what the heck Blizzard did with your talents (that new Eye For an Eye thing is completely disgusting, completely nerfs the mage crit build for PvP and it's a passive to boot), I just don't really understand all the whining about paladins being underpowered.
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If you're looking to foster communication calling someone's concerns about their class whining is not the way to go about it.

[Quark]

I've never played a paladin (nor an Alliance character for that matter).
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That says it all.

[Kevin]

I've never played a paladin (nor an Alliance character for that matter). I hear people complaining about how underpowered paladins are and how overpowered shamans are every day.

It also seems you didn't read my post that does some comparisons and where I'm calling for shaman to get buffed too.

Judging by some of the paladin's abilities (Blessing of Salvation, Cleanse and Lay on Hands), it would seem to me that paladins are far much more useful in PvE than shamans are. Just the fact that Horde get 1 class that can dispel (which got its mana 20 scost tripled in patch 1.9) and Alliance gets two classes is enough proof I guess. Then there's Blessing of Salvation which makes aggro sensitive fights such as Onyxia and Vael a joke (my guild is still ironing out the Vael fight and the occasional rogue pulls aggro now and then).

BoS is not as poweful as many think it is. I personally think that Blessing of Wisdom, and being able to put a judgement of wisdom on a mob to be able to get mana back for the entire raid (unlike the relatively weak mana tide that requires you to be in that shamans group and really doesn't give back all that much mana anyway) is way more powerful. We are still working on Vael ourselves and I can see where it helps rogues. All the other classes shouldn't really have to worry about it and for rogues it is only a crutch. I believe this encounter is the whole reason that shaman will get the totem in 1.9 because it's really the only encounter where it really matters that I've seen. I've also said that in 40 man raids (it doesn't really matter in 5 man) the paladin brings more to the table than a shaman. But then again that is a huge part of the problem. Paladin can do a fair bit in 5 mans that is very helpful and has just about nothing to do with what they are going to do in a 40 man. Shaman still get to do a lot of what they did in 5 man's in 40 mans. So do druids (yes druids can go bear and cat to do damage, if your guild doesn't let them you are gimping yourselves). Paladins go from a decent tank/off tank choice to a weak healer/buff bot/cleanser. That is it. They won't do any real damage because they won't be able to wear all that +crit +str +agi leather and mail that they wear to get any real damage and have any kind of mana for healing/debuffing. Keep in mind as well that shaman bring another flash heal to the game which is where the majority of healing comes from in Molten Core. They are a better priest replacement than a paladin or druid would be in in the 40 mans because of this. And healing wave when talented to 2.5 second cast is pretty much the same as the only heal paladins have that does any healing, except that +healing helps it out more.

In terms of PvP, I would say Paladins are more useful than shamans when it comes to battlegrounds. In Arathi Basin, a lone Paladin can single handedly make it impossible for 15 horde to cap a flag long enough for reinforcements to arrive. When it comes to WSG,  two or three paladins chain spamming Blessing of Freedom and Cleanse, not to mention healing the flag carrier from behind their invulnerability shields and toss in their IWIN buttong (Lay On Hands) and it's just too much. Most of the organize WSG teams on my server stock up on paladins for this reason.

And since consecrate doesn't prevent you from capping a flag how can one paladin who at best will have a 2.25 attack speed (if he has a 1.5 attack speed axe or sword before he bubbles) able to do that? Maybe I don't fully understand how the flag is capped or when I've played things have been buggy because I've been in combat and seen the flag go to the other side from contested.

2 or three shaman throwing down earth bind and grounding totems (alternate them) and frost shocks and interrupting heals with earth shock not to mention healing the flag carrier from behind with nature swiftness heals and warstomps is just too much. Most of the organized WSG teams on my server stock up on shaman for this reason.

OK I admit that it isn't as powerful as the paladin is but they can do it more frequently and it helps on both the offensive and defensive sides. Again lay on hands is once every hour. So in the next match or even the next cap attempt, the alliance can't do it again. It doesn't take long to cap the flag a few well placed NS healing waves with a few stuttered lesser healing waves is a lot of healing power as well. I will admit that it is easier for alliance to do stuff like this, and the alliance can destroy the totems (but even if you get it as soon as it goes down it snags everyone for a second) and does have more defense options (but please just shield bash or kick or shadow priest silence or counter spell or earth shock that paladin in the bubble so that 6 of the 12 seconds he is in there mean he can't do anything but 1/2 speed attacks, whereas if you do a 3 sec silence or 6 sec intterrupt on the shaman and they can still either heal or frost shock or grounding/earthbind). Organized shaman with at least one of them being tauren are pretty powerful too. As I mentioned they can be countered. But I'll grant that in WSG organized paladins can do some things that are harder to counter at least they can do these things once every 5 minutes.

In terms of DPS, well what can I say. I play a mage, and I've been critted for 800 to 1000 damage by paladins wielding arcanite reapers in PvP. Don't even get me started with those reckoning bombs.

And I've been critted by frostbolts for 3000 and have no way to get in range of you on a paladin. If I intercept you and miss the shield bash on my warrior you blink away. My druid has an easier time with feral charge. I've been critted for 1000 damage by warriors, rogues, druids, shaman, priests, warlocks, and hunters. Hmm that is every class there is. Reckoning bombs shouldn't exist now from what I understand and I know they don't exist in 1.9 so you don't need to start on them. And of course as a mage vs a paladin if you see them healing, counterspell them. You now have 6 seconds of them only being able to run at you and swing to kill them in with your nova and huge crits even for a frost mage. Yes I'm trying to help you counter the paladin.

Again, I don't know much about the class or how their talent trees are laid out. I am just offering my 0.02 cents form a Horde player's perspective on why I think paladins are pretty powerful as it is right now. I don't know what the heck Blizzard did with your talents (that new Eye For an Eye thing is completely disgusting, completely nerfs the mage crit build for PvP and it's a passive to boot), I just don't really understand all the whining about paladins being underpowered.
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Yeah you really don't seem to know much about them. I hope that I've given you some help on countering them them and armed you with more information about their skills.

Again most of us aren't whining about the power of a paladin. If you read what I said when I call for help with tanking I'm asking that comes at a cost. I'm asking that the way paladins deliver DPS gets more attention, not that they get more DPS (and even when you spec and gear for it wearing all +crit mail/plate/leather that you can get get and buffing 2 handed weapons as much as possible the paladins still sit at the bottom of the pile for DPS and that gear will mean just about no healing power, which is fine). Paladins are complaining that most of the specs don't really diversify them. Listen to what priests are saying about the holy tree. It doesn't change play style, it doesn't really help them be a better healer, at least it doesn't help as much as the discipline tree does. That is more what paladins really complaining about. The radical change in what paladins could do pre end game and post end game and the conflicting itemization that Blizzard has for it are the next biggest reasonable complaint as well.

[Arnulf]

[...]

Judging by some of the paladin's abilities (Blessing of Salvation, Cleanse and Lay on Hands), it would seem to me that paladins are far much more useful in PvE than shamans are. Just the fact that Horde get 1 class that can dispel (which got its mana cost tripled in patch 1.9) and Alliance gets two classes is enough proof I guess. Then there's Blessing of Salvation which makes aggro sensitive fights such as Onyxia and Vael a joke (my guild is still ironing out the Vael fight and the occasional rogue pulls aggro now and then).

In terms of PvP, I would say Paladins are more useful than shamans when it comes to battlegrounds. In Arathi Basin, a lone Paladin can single handedly make it impossible for 15 horde to cap a flag long enough for reinforcements to arrive. When it comes to WSG,  two or three paladins chain spamming Blessing of Freedom and Cleanse, not to mention healing the flag carrier from behind their invulnerability shields and toss in their IWIN buttong (Lay On Hands) and it's just too much. Most of the organize WSG teams on my server stock up on paladins for this reason.

[...]

In terms of DPS, well what can I say. I play a mage, and I've been critted for 800 to 1000 damage by paladins wielding arcanite reapers in PvP. Don't even get me started with those reckoning bombs.

[...]
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* Blessing of Salvation is probably one of the greatest assets paladins bring to a raid. Unfortunately it was never meant to be a group-buff. I just want to mention that I as the only paladin who brings BoS to my raid have to cast it around 30 times every 5 minutes. Of course this becomes now a non-issue with the arrival of 1.9. On the other hand I thought of BoS always as more of a reactive spell that should be used in certain situations in mid-fight. Much as I use Blessing of Protection now. That being said BoS is pretty useless I think if the blessed raid-member overcomes the boon by doing way more damage than BoS can compensate for...

* Cleanse is of course the biggest thing in an environment where many magic-based debuffs are thrown around (e.g. in Molten Core) by monsters. But I believe it would be absolutely useless if there wouldn't be some such thing as the Decursive mod. Sometimes I've got the feeling that certain raid encounters in dungeons like MC were created with the designers knowing of the Decursive mod. They would be impossible without it; Lucifron, Baron Geddon come to my mind here. I have to add that I'm not a twitchy 17-year-old and cannot react as fast by clicking on nameplates and pressing the Cleanse-button. So I attribute the usefulness of Cleanse more to the existence of Decursive. The same holds true for PvP.

* Lay on Hands uses up all of your mana. A paladin without mana is a sitting duck. What's more you can use it only once every 60 minutes (40 minutes if you spent some talent points). I tend to use it only when I have no more mana left for anything else and the situation is pretty desperate on the whole.

* Having defended a flag in Arathi Basin myself I can say with some confidence that the proper use of Polymorph, Frostnova, Counter-Spell, Pyroblast is enough to keep me frozen, sheeped, helpless for a long time enough that the enemy can capture the flag at leisure. And I have my insignia equipped and use it often (along with Divine Shield to break some effects).

* 800 or 1000 critical strikes I cannot achieve with my current talent specification. The only time I can see values of nearly 1000 if my Hammer of Wrath strikes critical. Critical strikes by me (with my Aurastone) usually range around 300, with Seal of Righteousness added I can get 600 if I'm extremely lucky and the opponent is debuffed with Seal of Crusader. I know that with a different spec values of 800/1000 are feasible.

So in conclusion it all depends on your viewpoint. :)

-Arnulf