Anyone else looking at Vanguard?

[Raelynn]

Agreed.  But since they screwed up in the beginning, they have to pay their dues now.
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Also, as another side-note, though 3 5-mans sounds big, there's even more raids coming in the expansions:
3 in caverns of time, 20-man medivh's tower, the main part of the winged 5-man that is believed to be for kael, illidan.

That's 5 40-man raids right there.

[Quark]

Also, as another side-note, though 3 5-mans sounds big, there's even more raids coming in the expansions:
3 in caverns of time, 20-man medivh's tower, the main part of the winged 5-man that is believed to be for kael, illidan.

That's 5 40-man raids right there.
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I thought Caverns of Time was going to be a mix of 5-man, 20man, 40man, and BGs?

Edit: sorry for the derail, guys :(

[Raelynn]

I thought Caverns of Time was going to be a mix of 5-man, 20man, 40man, and BGs?
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There may have been a BG, but I think the main two instances were 40-man. Thrall's escape and battle at Hyjal I believe were the two. I think the other is the black morass?

I'm pretty sure that the magazine said Thrall's escape and battle at hyjal are goign to be 40-man though. I'll keep looking and see if I can find the magazine scans.

[Raelynn]

I thought Caverns of Time was going to be a mix of 5-man, 20man, 40man, and BGs?

Edit: sorry for the derail, guys :(
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Found it: one page another page

They don't say as much as I had remembered, but Caverns of Time is 3 instances and a battleground, one of the instances is definitely a raid, the others it doesn't say anything about.

Karazhan is both a 15 and 20 man instance (one inside the other or something like that).

Zul'Aman is a 20-man raid, probably similar to ZG.

Hellfire Citidel is a 5-man, the easiest of the instances.

Doesn't say what Lady Vashj is going to be.

Auchindoun is both a city and a dungeon, so it doesn't quite fit either bill. It's something new, and probably is going to be interesting.

Tempest Keep is 3 5-man wings with a main raid dungeon to kill Prince Kael.

And finally, Black Temple is the end raid to kill Illidan.

Final count from the magazine: 2 5-mans (one has 3 wings, so it's tough to decide whether it's 2 or 4 total), 2 40-mans (don't know how many Prince Kael will be), 2 20-mans, 1 15-man, and 4 unknowns.

[Walkiry]

One week to do everything 5-man in the game, compared to a current 2 days to do everything 40-man in the game.
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I'd say your comparison isn't very fair. 2 days to do everything 40-man... from a well-geared, highly coordinated uberguild. The same uberguild will quite possibly be able to knock all 5-man instances in the expansion in a single session, once they learn them. Take the shortcuts, nail the bosses, use the exact right strategy, rinse and repeat.

When you complete a raid as fast as possible right now, you can't continue raiding.

*Shrug* I won't comment on the lock system because that's not what I was responding to. 5-manning the same instance after it's clear may very well be entertaining if you like it, and annoying that you can't do the same with MC/BWL/AQ/Whatever, but I don't think the repetition can be considered new content, which is what I was aiming at. If I aimed at something different than what you were commenting, then I obviously didn't understand you right :)

[ima_nerd]

The problem with 5-man content is that it doesn't scale like raid content does. Want to do BWL? Better gear up in MC first. Want to do DM? Ok! You're wearing level 50 greens? No problem!

The difficulty of group content is dissapointing. Currently, the only end-game progression is raiding. That's the only path to recieve superior gear. Why can't they make challenging group content that requires gear from a previous dungeon if you want a chance at succeding? In no way do I think the raid gear should be the same as group gear, it should be better but not so disgustingly better that it screws up BGs (which has already happened).

[Quark]

The problem with 5-man content is that it doesn't scale like raid content does. Want to do BWL? Better gear up in MC first. Want to do DM? Ok! You're wearing level 50 greens? No problem!

Hearing this makes me sad, because I think of how Scholomance and Live-side Stratholme were pre-nerfing. How many people back then were screaming at the difficulty of them? There's also only so much you can do with only 5-man party fights. DM has the best of this right now, thinking of the Prince, Ogre King, and Captain Kromcrush fights.

The difficulty of group content is dissapointing. Currently, the only end-game progression is raiding. That's the only path to recieve superior gear. Why can't they make challenging group content that requires gear from a previous dungeon if you want a chance at succeding?

Maybe we'll see that with new 5-mans, but it's too late to do it with the current ones. Watch that "require" carefully, though. Our first Ony kill was with very few epics overall, mostly greens and blues. It's certainly much easier now, but the only way to truly make something required is to put in a fight like Ragnaros, where if you don't have X fire resist, chances are you're gonna die. It's either resists or you highly inflate how good gear currently is to make it "required" for the next step.

In no way do I think the raid gear should be the same as group gear, it should be better but not so disgustingly better that it screws up BGs (which has already happened).
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BGs are not screwed up because of items aquired in raids. They're screwed up because of organized versus pubbie, caster versus melee, and honor grinding. In one AV, I was taking particular pleasure in singling out a Rogue with Perdition's Blade , Core Hound Tooth and what looked like a mish-mash of Nightslayer and Bloodfang. In our 6 solo fights, I won 5 and he won 1. Yes, this was before I got my new weapons. It's not all about the gear.

[Concillian]

Hearing this makes me sad, because I think of how Scholomance and Live-side Stratholme were pre-nerfing.  How many people back then were screaming at the difficulty of them? 
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Exactly what I was thinking. The whole making 10 man possible in these places was a huge mistake in terms of difficulty level expectation.

You can scale 5 person content fine, as long as players scale their discipline towards the level that current (20 and 40 person) raids require. Instead of the zerg / wipe fests that occur in a 10 man Scholo run.

[Quark]

Exactly what I was thinking.  The whole making 10 man possible in these places was a huge mistake in terms of difficulty level expectation.

You can scale 5 person content fine, as long as players scale their discipline towards the level that current (20 and 40 person) raids require.  Instead of the zerg / wipe fests that occur in a 10 man Scholo run.
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It's not even that. They're easy 5mans now, besides a room here or there. Anyway, the "10 man" was a compromise. They started with no limits at all -> a big mistake. They then toned it down to 10/15 when DM came out so that DM could be set at 5 without too much complaining.

There was a blue post two or three weeks ago that basically said it was a complete mistake to not limit them to 5-mans from the beginning, but it's simply too late to change the established zones. All content from now on will be capped at its intended target.

[ima_nerd]

Watch that "require" carefully, though. Our first Ony kill was with very few epics overall, mostly greens and blues.

Agreed, Onyxia is unique in that skill matters more then gear. However, like you said, resists are to easy to abuse to scale raids. Or, all that +dmg to Undead gear that no one cares about, use that concept with an impossible dungeon unless everyone has +dmg to Dragons or something from a previous dungeon. Make people think about gear choices. "Do I want that +str for the trash mobs on the boss fight or do I want my +dmg to Dragons for the boss?"

Hearing this makes me sad, because I think of how Scholomance and Live-side Stratholme were pre-nerfing.

--snip--

DM has the best of this right now, thinking of the Prince, Ogre King, and Captain Kromcrush fights.

Gah, 5-man Scholo is a joke. Captain Kromcrush is definitely no joke. I was in a guild group doing DM and we weren't thinking and let Thimblejack go before we got the suit from him :P We got to Kroncrush before we realized it and figured we had to kill him and the Tribute wouldn't be hurt too much. One of our members had left a while back so we go in, not knowing the fight at all and only 4 people. Needless to say, a wipe was inevitable. However, we rezzed up and took him down since we had not only knowledge of the fight, but Vent to coordinate the sheeping/offtanking. Anywho, yes, DM has some great boss fights.

BGs are not screwed up because of items aquired in raids. They're screwed up because of organized versus pubbie, caster versus melee, and honor grinding.

However, the melee vs caster imbalance is caused by epic gear. I never lost to a Warrior pre-60 but since hitting level 60 BGs, I have yet to beat one. Melee damage scales, caster damage doesn't - simple as that. Yeah, jumping through people during casting to break the spell is annoying but you can counter that. Good luck countering a 6 billion damage mortal strike :shuriken:

Noo! This turned into a WoW debate! So, I'm thinking Vanguard is going to be sexy :blush: What do you guys think? Give me your initial views and pros/cons.

[Rinnhart]

Pro:

New world to explore designed with immersion in mind.

Con:

Group-centric gaming means being LFG for hours on end for the high population classes.

[Guest]

I wonder does anyone else think instance focused games would be better if they just dropped the whole persistant world and let us group up from an interface like an improved D2?
Maybe have and auction house and item access from the interface.

I really love exploring and questing in persistant persistant world and I like PvP there.

I also like instances - when there is no travel and less time waiting on other people.


It seems to me these are 2 good game theories but they mix poorly.

[Rinnhart]

I wonder does anyone else think instance focused games would be better if they just dropped the whole persistant world and let us group up from an interface like an improved D2?

You're either subtly attempting to derail the thread into a discussion of Dungeons & Dragons Online, or hey, the game's exactly that, here's a link.

No persistant world, or so I'm told, outside of some common "waiting" areas. Also, isn't Guildwars mostly instanced besides towns, too?

There are some issues with instancing, but there are definate advantages.

I really love exploring and questing in persistant persistant world and I like PvP there.

I also like instances - when there is no travel and less time waiting on other people.
It seems to me these are 2 good game theories but they mix poorly.
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Instanced raid content = good. If you disagree, you've never been steamrolled by a larger force as your raid is about to engage a boss, or even more fun, you've never had another raid force gank your kill as your raid does all the work to tank and control the fight. Environmental raid content, while nice flavor, generally leads to drama and rampant jackassery.

Instanced small group content = meh. I like happening across other people. And dungeon PvP is alot of fun. You do end up with some of the same problems as with persistent raid content, but the smaller scale and faster repop times tend to lend themselves to more cooperation.

It also makes farming items much more difficult (which has it's own pros and cons).

[ima_nerd]

You should really try Guild Wars, Ghost. It sounds right up your alley. I've heard both DDO and GW described as "D3".

[Wyrm]

You should really try Guild Wars, Ghost. It sounds right up your alley. I've heard both DDO and GW described as "D3".
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GW is really nothing like D2. There's very little randomization and the total number of magical modifiers is probably under 40. It's a lot more strategy based instead of action, as well.

[Drasca]

This is what would be a truely revolutionary ...
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Been there. Done that. Lost a t-shirt. Wyrm's got GW's description down. It doesn't have a huge alternative skills/crafting (though there are quite a few armor / weapon customizations...), its pretty much 'enable all skills', all strat/tactics. Pivotal weakness? Pick-up people are... random. Arranging a decent group out of pickups can be difficult and time consuming. There is no free lunch when it comes to finding quality people and organization to play with.

Try Guild Wars sometime if you ever find time out of WoW. Quite refreshing not to be greatly concerned about items. The difference between 'best' and 'easily found' still has inflation cost gaps, but the raw stats aren't signifigantly different. Skill choice, sets, and team play matter the most. 20 official levels, but most development is in acquisition of new skills and applying them toward a given limited (at one time) skill set. You're allowed 8 abilities (skills) at a time, but can draw from a pool of over 50 (max 150+) on any given character. Characters also have two classes: Primary and a secondary, and eventually you may change your secondary classes around with no penalities and a few sensible limits. I could be primary paladin, have his charge and zeal-ish skills, and have necromancer summonables for my secondary.

Spellforce's "Breath of Winter" (the last expansion I've bought for a game I had already) had me busy for longer

If you don't know already, there is a second expansion (and last) for Spellforce called Order of the Phoenix. Its been out so long, there's a platinum edition that carries original and both expansions: BoW and OoP

[Guest]

GW has its points, but its not really what I meant.

[Guest]

Its pretty easy to eliminate kill stealing(in a non PvP situation), Kill stealing was simple against the rules in DAoC so it almost never happened.

But really when I said "I really love exploring and questing in persistant persistant world and I like PvP there". I meant a world with no big raids - like say nothing over 10 people.

AS for my second suggestion sounding like "DDO", thats cool I guess, I havent heard much about it.
I utterly hate it in WoW(and DAoC before) when you stand there waiting 20 minutes for someone to show up cause hes on the other side of the world. If we can magically break the rules of talking the whole way across the world we might well get rif of boring travel time.

[Rinnhart]

Its pretty easy to eliminate kill stealing(in a non PvP situation), Kill stealing was simple against the rules in DAoC so it almost never happened.

Heh, well, it's against the rules in EQ, but how does that matter if it takes 8 or 9 hours to get a petition replied to? Good customer service and actual enforcement of the rules- now that would be revolutionary.

[Drasca]

GW has its points, but its not really what I meant.
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I agree it isn't what you meant. It doesn't offer the 'complete package.' Right now, I don't see the utopian complete package possible at the moment. Those kind of resources just don't seem pursued or cost effective. Bethesda chooses to maintain the single player route for its elderscrolls series, and gains both modability strengths and avoids multiplayer issues. Guild Wars... focuses on PvP, skill and balance (mostly). I see WoW as hitting the end game itemization black hole, with ever more un-balancing items, and spending time on making resources for items that'll just end up farmed by large groups of people. Its trapped in that item cycle.

Eve, and before that, Earth and Beyond... had nice crafting systems. Really nice ones where they economy really flowed. I was not as fond for the rest of the games, although I loved E&B's backstory.