Druid threat

[Warlock]

I'm convinced that tanking Druids (ie, specialised in bear form) currently generate more threat than equivalently specialised warriors.

I've been testing this against the Stone Guardians in Un'goro (because they are durable, easy to fight without adds and some of the highest levelled mobs available outside instances). Without using growl I've been able to pull off the three guild warriors that have been willing to fly to un'goro and test, even after giving each a five sunder headstart. Two were arms/fury and the third protection. The hardest to pull off was the protection warrior.

Does this agree with your experiences or have I just been unlucky regarding the warriors that I've tested against?

[Treesh]

Do you have feral instinct? Was the prot warrior in defensive stance during testing and actually had defiance? I can't imagine a protection specced warrior without defiance, but I have to ask anyway. :) What weapons were the warriors using? Were they really trying to keep aggro or just kind of trying? There are more tricks to use than just sunder. :)

[Tal]

I'm convinced that tanking Druids (ie, specialised in bear form) currently generate more threat than equivalently specialised warriors.

I've been testing this against the Stone Guardians in Un'goro (because they are durable, easy to fight without adds and some of the highest levelled mobs available outside instances). Without using growl I've been able to pull off the three guild warriors that have been willing to fly to un'goro and test, even after giving each a five sunder headstart. Two were arms/fury and the third protection. The hardest to pull off was the protection warrior.

Does this agree with your experiences or have I just been unlucky regarding the warriors that I've tested against?
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Except you didn't test the best aggro generating skills a warrior has.

[Warlock]

The protection warrior certainly had defiance. All used defensive stance with a shield. I asked each to do everything they could to get/hold aggro; I was concentrating more on my own skills than on theirs. I did notice Sunders and Shield Slam by the protection warrior.

I have every Feral bear talent except Feral Aggression, plus Balance to Thorns and Omen. Buffs were the same in each test (LOTP and MOTW, no thorns).

[Watto44]

I haven't done any real testing, but while in Maraudon I know a warrior couldn't pull aggro off me. (That was a strange situation, where I ended up tanking while the warrior dpsed. Not ideal, but /shrug....)

What I do know is that I'm very nervous about using bear to suck-up damage when I draw aggro from healing. The few times I've used bash+heal since 1.8 haven't really payed off, and I'm certainly not going to try hitting anything!

But the real question is the gear. What gear were they using and what gear were you using? I know I generate a lot more aggro (in bear form) while wearing my DPS/hybrid gear, but at the cost of HP and armor.

I would definately like to see some testing done of bear tanking: both versus a warrior and "against" heals.

PS. I think I'm in love with the new swipe. :blush:

[ima_nerd]

Revenge > Sunder

Shield Slam (for the Prot Warrior) > Sunder

Sunder is relatively weak compared to other tricks Warrior's have. In fact, bam.

[Warlock]

Revenge > Sunder

Shield Slam (for the Prot Warrior) > Sunder

Sunder is relatively weak compared to other tricks Warrior's have. In fact, bam.
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I'm aware of those calculations. Sunder is the highest threat source by both efficiency and total threat that is not on a cooldown timer.

Theorycraft for a 692 Attack Power Maul on the same scale as I understand it is as follows:
((((275 white * 1.2 Savage Fury) + (128 Maul bonus * 1.2 Savage Fury * 1.1 Natural Weapons)) * 2 Maul threat bonus) - 275 base white) * 4 Threat per rage * 0.5 target armour = 1446 per non-crit Maul. That's above everything except Shield Slam.

Is that number accurate? I have no idea, my tests have been too crude to be able to confidently assign numerical values. The above calculation includes Maul acting as a *2 multiplier rather than the flat addition claimed for Heroic Strike because a poster in the blizz forums claims to have done the work and come to that value.

I do know that none of the warriors I have tested against has been able to hold mobs that I am trying to pull off them, even given a head start and rage generated from being hit. I'd like a bigger sample, but finding people willing to fly halfway across the world to test something they think is pointless (because 'Druid threat can't possibly be more or even close to Warrior threat') isn't easy. Mucking around in raids I've pulled Molten Giants from the Warriors tanking them; I haven't tried on anything harder becuase I didn't want to inconvenience the raid.

In all cases I'vd been wearing my tanking gear, which gives me a little under 700 AP and a little over 20% crit unbuffed except for LOTP. I could generate more threat in my Cat gear that focuses more on offensive stats but that wouldn't be a valid test because I wouldn't have the stamina or armour to make an effective tank.

[Tal]

The protection warrior certainly had defiance. All used defensive stance with a shield. I asked each to do everything they could to get/hold aggro; I was concentrating more on my own skills than on theirs. I did notice Sunders and Shield Slam by the protection warrior.

I have every Feral bear talent except Feral Aggression, plus Balance to Thorns and Omen. Buffs were the same in each test (LOTP and MOTW, no thorns).
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I've tanked Molten Core Giants with a druid trying to get aggro as well (Or at least I think Tufty was trying) and was able to get aggro back by using a combination of taunt + shield bash or taunt + revenge if its available.

[Quark]

I've tanked Molten Core Giants with a druid trying to get aggro as well (Or at least I think Tufty was trying) and was able to get aggro back by using a combination of taunt + shield bash or taunt + revenge if its available.
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To be "fair", either both druid and warrior don't use taunt/growl, or both do use it.

[Sir_Die_alot]

I'm convinced that tanking Druids (ie, specialised in bear form) currently generate more threat than equivalently specialised warriors.

I've been testing this against the Stone Guardians in Un'goro (because they are durable, easy to fight without adds and some of the highest levelled mobs available outside instances). Without using growl I've been able to pull off the three guild warriors that have been willing to fly to un'goro and test, even after giving each a five sunder headstart. Two were arms/fury and the third protection. The hardest to pull off was the protection warrior.

Does this agree with your experiences or have I just been unlucky regarding the warriors that I've tested against?
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I agree. Swipe has some kind of very heavy aggro bonus so even though the damage sucks it is useful to use while tanking multiple mobs. I would say 3 swipes = about 1 shield bash but hits 3 targets so it comes out on top. The place I've felt this the most so far is Maraudon with the patroling rock elementals. With a defensive warrior it took quite a bit of effort to hold aggro on all of them, even with sunders on everything. Wth my druid all I did was swipe spam and it was a piece of cake. I'll bet maul has a similar aggro bonus but I haven't tested it against swipe directly.

[Tal]

To be "fair", either both druid and warrior don't use taunt/growl, or both do use it.
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Pretty sure he (Tufty) was. :)

[Quark]

With only a small sample size, I have found tanking 3 mobs as a bear to be quite easy -> if people let me start the fight on all three. All the extra rage generation from damage goes straight into spamming Swipe.

[TheDragoon]

In all cases I'vd been wearing my tanking gear, which gives me a little under 700 AP and a little over 20% crit unbuffed except for LOTP. I could generate more threat in my Cat gear that focuses more on offensive stats but that wouldn't be a valid test because I wouldn't have the stamina or armour to make an effective tank.
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I have a feeling that this might be part of the reason it's working out as you find. 20% chance to crit in "tank gear" is significantly higher than most warriors I know. It sounds like your gear is more designed for damage compared to the types of tank gear a warrior gets. For example, when I'm using my offensive gear on my warrior, I usually run around with 25% chance to crit (unbuffed, in battle stance), but when I swap to my tank gear, that drops down as low as 11% chance to crit. With such a huge deficit in terms of offensive power, it's definitely going to be difficult to hold aggro even if you both have the talents to increase hate generation (Defiance for him, that Feral Instinct for you). For the warriors that don't have Defiance, they would have to work 15% harder to hold aggro, so I don't think it's a huge surprise they were having a hard time with it.

Rage generation is also going to be a huge factor here. Warriors in defensive stance with a shield out against one relatively weak-hitting mob aren't going to be generating a whole lot of rage. With you in a more offensively minded gear set, you might very well have a comparable rage generation to the warriors. Again, at that point it goes back to the fact that the warrior might be turtling and you are attacking, in terms of the gear you are using.

[Xanthix]

I also wonder about how dependent on gear these results are.

In my (limited) experience druids can tank just fine, but they do seem to take damage faster than warriors. On the other hand, they tend to have a lot more HP.

I would be curious to see how much this is due to natural reasons, and how much it is due to gear differences. Most tanks I know focus on stamina and +def, whereas I see more armor and a variance of stats on druid gear.

It would be interesting to see how a druid tank would stack up against a warrior, if the druid had 400+ defense. Maybe to get that much +def, they would have to sacrifice agility and crit and other things, making them about equal to warriors in grabbing aggro, and in staying alive.

[Quark]

I would be curious to see how much this is due to natural reasons, and how much it is due to gear differences. Most tanks I know focus on stamina and +def, whereas I see more armor and a variance of stats on druid gear.

It would be interesting to see how a druid tank would stack up against a warrior, if the druid had 400+ defense. Maybe to get that much +def, they would have to sacrifice agility and crit and other things, making them about equal to warriors in grabbing aggro, and in staying alive.
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Warriors focus on +def because, overall, it's probably the best stat to get. Druids focus on armor because, due to itemization, it's the easiest to get. It's very, very hard to get a decent +def as a druid without seriously sacrificing some other stats.

[Warlock]

My unbuffed (excepting LOTP) stats:
5563 HP, 10224 Armour, 672 AP, 22.30% crit, 11.90% dodge. My character screen lists 108.5 DPS. 9% of that crit comes from talents.

The gear list:
Shadowcraft Cap (+8 Stam)
Amulet of the Darkmoon
Wyrmtoungue Shoulders (+5 shadow res)
Cloak of Warding (+5 all res)
Breastplate of Bloodthirst (+100 HP)
Wristguards of Stability (+9 Stam)
Devilsaur Gauntlets (+7 Agi)
Serpentine Sash
Devilsaur Leggings (+8 Stam)
Pads of the Dread Wolf (+7 Stam)
Painweaver Band
Ring of Protection
Mark of Tyranny
Smoking Heart of the Mountain
Warden Staff (+15 Str)

If that's offensively focused it's because Armour/Stam leather either doesn't exist or I haven't been able to obtain it yet. In a couple of places I do have items that are fractionally superior defensively but at a significant cost in offense (eg. painweaver to tortoise) and while I emphasise defence it's not the only thing I look for.

+Defence leather gear is very rare (green "...of defence" is the majority), but that stat isn't as important to Druids because we get a smaller bonus from it than warriors, not being able to block or parry. Conversely high armour items are much more valuable to a Druid than a Warrior (that Ring of Protection is worth 759 armour to me and just 150 to a Warrior).

[Tuftears]

Pretty sure he (Tufty) was. :)

Heh, I hit growl only when it was off both of us. I felt we were pretty even for aggro. I did recently get a +15 str enchant to my Unyielding Maul so we could try that again sometimes... :whistling:

[TheDragoon]

If that's offensively focused it's because Armour/Stam leather either doesn't exist or I haven't been able to obtain it yet. In a couple of places I do have items that are fractionally superior defensively but at a significant cost in offense (eg. painweaver to tortoise) and while I emphasise defence it's not the only thing I look for.
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Yeah, that's kind of what I was getting at, as far as the direct testing being a bit difficult. Druids just don't have quite as defensive of equipment to deal with as do Warriors. Lots of Warrior gear focuses on Stamina, Defense, and damage mitigation while that sort of stuff just isn't as available for Druids. If you really wanted to try and really compare whether the SKILLS available to Druid or Warrior tanks are comparable for aggro generation, you might want to try and compare your hate generation versus a Warrior who is wearing more offensive gear to try and match the type of stuff that you have on your Druid. That way the gear wouldn't be as much of a confounding variable for the testing.

As for the way I, personally, see things, I have a feeling that Druids built for tanking can probably generate hate roughly as fast as a similarly geared warrior. Due to itemization and the way they work with Druid skills, he Druid in bear form will tend to have more armor and life than the Warrior, but they don't have as much damage mitigation as the Warrior. The Druid will also be more susceptible to critical hits.

As for the offensive power of a Warrior (in tank mode) versus a bear form Druid, it seems to me that this probably depends greatly upon the level of gear for the two characters. Though I have no played too extensively with a feral Druid, it seems to me that the offensive power of the Druid is more skill-based than a Warrior (and the Warrior's offensive power is more gear-based). Since the speed and damage of a Druid's attacks are independant upon your use of a weapon, it seems to me that changing gear (particularly weapons) will have a much smaller effect on the power of a Druid than a Warrior (whose damage is directly based upon the weapon he uses). That is, the damage output of the Warrior (at the end-game) will ramp up a great deal when switching from a low level blue item to a high level purple. However, the same jump for the feral Druid wouldn't be as dramatic.

Again, I haven't played too extensively with a feral Druid, so some of this might be off, but I have played a Warrior throughout the end-game and I have seen how big an effect gear (particularly weapons) can have on the class. :)

[Warlock]

Good points there. Now to find a warrior with a defensive talent spec who's been collecting offensive gear and is willing to come test... would just asking the warrior to use a 2H suffice? I did try that with the two non-protection warriors and it didn't seem to make much difference. I didn't ask the protection warrior to try that because he almost died before I could get the SG off him as it was.

How much life, armour, parry, block and dodge is typical for a late-blue/early MC tanking warrior?

You are right that Druids don't gain from gear as fast as warriors - there is one item in the entire game that gives feral Druids a DPS upgrade comparable to that which a warrior gets from epic weapons. On the other hand our starting point is higher.

[TheDragoon]

How much life, armour, parry, block and dodge is typical for a late-blue/early MC tanking warrior?

Well, my warrior is probably somewhere along the lines of what you're talking about (maybe a bit more geared up than what you want). Here's what she has in tank gear:

5189 life (unbuffed)
6865 armor (55.5% damage reduction)
388 defense
15.63% chance to dodge
13.08% chance to parry
14.08% chance to block (70 block listed on the shield)

Obviously, I'm a Fury/Arms spec'd Warrior, so my armor and defense would be higher if I were defensive spec. If I were defensive spec I would have have somewhere in the range of 398 defense and 7550 armor. :)