Avarice vs. Ragnaros

[Darian]

Link to Carpe Aurum - screenshots!

Zippyy FRAPSed the fight as well; look for a post from him.

[Bolty]

I'd seen screenshots in the past, but I still couldn't believe how big he was.

Anyhow, I would have liked a second or third run on him just for practice, but I realize people were tired and wipes are time-consuming. We definitely need 2 to 3 healers, maybe 4, assigned solely to the main tank and just spamming heals. One Priest constantly casting Flash Heal isn't enough to keep a main tank vertical, at least not with the fire resistances we currently have on our big boys. On that fight I stayed with Skybreak and that was a dumb move, since he wasn't taking damage until he was just about the only tank left.

How we handle the Sons of Flame packs...well, dunno. We'll need squads dedicated to handling them, like how we have squads for whelp pits in Onyxia. Warlocks are critical. Less mages, more warlocks for Rag is definitely a good thing.

74% on the first try, bringing out a flame pack. By the time they arrived, we had nothing left to face them, though.

Oh, and epic items aren't for wussies anymore, I guess. Dammit! :)

Comcast update: I am at their mercy. After yet another call this morning, they admitted that their local node is having problems, 731 connected modems to that node are affected, and there's no ETA on the fix. Could be today, could be a month from now. Consider me a "maybe" to all raids until I get a stable line...

-Bolty

[Treesh]

\o/ It was great fun! I must be masochistic or something, but the learning raids are the most fun for me. So very, very glad I could be there for the first spawning of that monkey. :D The loot I won was secondary. I'll gladly heal for Darian anytime I can, anywhere. :D The only conflict is when we throw the gnome into the mix. ;)

[lfd]

Warlocks are critical.  Less mages, more warlocks for Rag is definitely a good thing.[right][snapback]94071[/snapback][/right]

Just in case you're thinking of it, I would strongly suggest _against_ banishing any sons ;-)

Do you have any shadowpriests you can take along?

[Lissa]

Just in case you're thinking of it, I would strongly suggest _against_ banishing any sons ;-)
[right][snapback]94080[/snapback][/right]

Huh? We've been hearing exactly the opposite. We do realize that Rag-OH-NOES' submersion is timed and he can come up while still fighting the sons. Besides, banishing them would allow the raid to deal with them more easily from what I can tell.

[Legedi]

I've heard that if you banish, only do it once. Other wise you won't have enough time to kill them before Rag comes back. But I have never heard not to banish at all.

P.S. I got to tank Rag for like 15 seconds! :w00t:

[Mirajj]

The "single banish" thing makes sense, as the banish timer is (if it goes unbroken) a full minute, is it not? So I'd think that a full banish (Possibly a second if our warlock is on their toes and the first breaks very early) would work. The time required to focus fire on the Son after Rag pops back out could be used by the tank to reacquire aggro on Rag and let folks reposition.

You'd probably not want to banish more than 4 though. Also...they seem to 'only' be lvl 60 elites. Should be able to be burned down pretty fast, I'd think. But you would very much need fluid DPS on them.

[martini]

It was awesome to be there for the spawning of Rag, I can't say enough good things about Avarice! :D

I was bummed that I didn't manage to stay alive until the Sons, but I saw at least one Son who was caught in a freeze trap. Hopefully I'll be able to lend a hand on the trapping front next time. :)

[Lissa]

The "single banish" thing makes sense, as the banish timer is (if it goes unbroken) a full minute, is it not?
[right][snapback]94085[/snapback][/right]

Banish is 30 seconds

[Zippyy]

Huh?  We've been hearing exactly the opposite.  We do realize that Rag-OH-NOES' submersion is timed and he can come up while still fighting the sons.  Besides, banishing them would allow the raid to deal with them more easily from what I can tell.
[right][snapback]94081[/snapback][/right]

I've watched two Rag videos and they both banish.

[Treesh]

I've watched two Rag videos and they both banish.
[right][snapback]94122[/snapback][/right]

Doesn't mean that's the "right" way to do it. It also doesn't mean it's a "wrong" way to do it, obviously. We can try different things and see what works best for us. :D That's part of the fun of the learning raids. :D

[Zippyy]

Doesn't mean that's the "right" way to do it.  It also doesn't mean it's a "wrong" way to do it, obviously.  We can try different things and see what works best for us. :D  That's part of the fun of the learning raids. :D
[right][snapback]94126[/snapback][/right]

I wasn't asserting that it was the right/only way, just that other guilds do use banish. If we didn't incorporate other guilds' strategies I don't think we'd have made it this far just yet :)

Edit: There are an awful lot of those kids.. I don't see how banish could hurt. If needed, we could use rank 1 banish (20 seconds) instead of rank 2 (30 seconds).

[Kevin]

I wasn't asserting that it was the right/only way, just that other guilds do use banish.  If we didn't incorporate other guilds' strategies I don't think we'd have made it this far just yet  :)
[right][snapback]94134[/snapback][/right]

I'm not actually sure on that, but I know it hasn't slowed our learning curve down any to have access to the information from those who have gone before us. :)

[Treesh]

I wasn't asserting that it was the right/only way, just that other guilds do use banish.  If we didn't incorporate other guilds' strategies I don't think we'd have made it this far just yet  :)
[right][snapback]94134[/snapback][/right]

Blasphemy! ;)

I know, you were just showing supporting strategies for banish, but you gave me the perfect setup to say something that I've been thinking about for a while. Not just on this particular fight, but others. We've tweaked the strategies and tactics that other guilds have used, especially with our varying group compositions, and I hope we will continue to do so. There's very little in this game that has to be done one way and one way only. I do wish we could put our druids' healing to better use than it is right now (although it has been improving on these later bosses), but we have more priests than druids right now so I deal with it. ;) Please note that I'm not saying anything negative about the strategies and tactics decided upon by the raid leaders. Obviously, what we do works. :) I'm just always open to new things to try. :D That's part of the reason why I enjoy the learning raids so much. It's also kind of fun to see what happens when you have only two warlocks for Garr compared to when you have six (yes, count them. We had six warlocks for Garr. It was so unbelievably easy and zergish :) ). It did give us a little practice for figuring out what banished critter was going to be the next one to be eaten and what ones were going to burned down. We still need some practice on that part (as evidenced by some of the pulls last night), but it did give some practice. More practice with "odd" groupings and the easier things will be when (if ;) ) we get optimal groupings. :)

BTW, I just want to say much love to the avarice folks for not forcing anyone into specific builds for raiding. But that's another pet peeve of mine that I'll just leave be since I don't really have to worry about it with Avarice. :D

[Skandranon]

I wasn't asserting that it was the right/only way, just that other guilds do use banish.  If we didn't incorporate other guilds' strategies I don't think we'd have made it this far just yet  :)

Edit: There are an awful lot of those kids.. I don't see how banish could hurt.  If needed, we could use rank 1 banish (20 seconds) instead of rank 2 (30 seconds).
[right][snapback]94134[/snapback][/right]

Banishing works. Not banishing works. There are a lot of ways to handle a Son spawn.

As a minor note, Fear also works.

[Tuftears]

we have more priests than druids right now so I deal with it

This actually varies considerably: I usually have more druids available than priests for Zul'gurub runs.

Good opportunity to mention something that I've found to be true of Avarice Alliance healing, by the way, it seems current raid leaders tend to put priests with the first parties and treat druids as backup healers. You can see this in the party organizations, such that the first parties will all have one priest and the last parties will all have one druid. Each of the first parties will have one warrior.

Healing is then ordered such that even healers heal the first two warriors in the even-numbered groups, odd healers heal the first two warriors in the odd-numbered groups, but for the most part, healing is very informal.

Could we do more damage if we dedicated some people to healing and told the others to go DPS on trash mobs? Would druids do better in the tank healing parties? I've heard some people say that druids can do well with tanks.

Also, should we look at dividing parties up into melee and ranged? Consider for instance, that many enemies do melee AOE damage. If you stick a priest in a party of rogues, then the priest's Prayer of Healing should be able to help all those rogues at once. Also, the MA's battle shout could cover all those melee characters for extra damage.

[Quark]

Good opportunity to mention something that I've found to be true of Avarice Alliance healing, by the way, it seems current raid leaders tend to put priests with the first parties and treat druids as backup healers.  You can see this in the party organizations, such that the first parties will all have one priest and the last parties will all have one druid.  Each of the first parties will have one warrior.

I do this more out of habit with particular healers than priest/druid thing -> I'm used to certain healers knowing the roles of the different groups. We can switch this around, though.

Could we do more damage if we dedicated some people to healing and told the others to go DPS on trash mobs?  Would druids do better in the tank healing parties?  I've heard some people say that druids can do well with tanks.

That's a healerchat type question, you guys know the situation better. I do know I often get about 4 or 5 heals just as I'm about to back off and bandage, so overhealing is happening.

Also, should we look at dividing parties up into melee and ranged?  Consider for instance, that many enemies do melee AOE damage.  If you stick a priest in a party of rogues, then the priest's Prayer of Healing should be able to help all those rogues at once.  Also, the MA's battle shout could cover all those melee characters for extra damage.[right][snapback]94143[/snapback][/right]

My goal for groups right now (For the typical situations):
1) Warriors in groups 1 to x, for x warriors.
2) A healer with each warrior.
3) Warlock for imp's +sta start at 1 and go until we run out, for the warriors.
4) Paladin aura for the warriors.
5) Another meleer to take advantage of the aura and +sta.

Everything else is up in the air. Have extra pallies compared to warriors, we can dump a pally into an all melee group for aura. Don't have enough warlocks/pallies, fill the holes with melee dps to take advantage of what the group does have.

By stacking Warriors w/ as many meleers as fit, we can also take advantage of the Battle Shout. I have definately enjoyed the marked increase in use of that skill :) But, in my eyes, making the Warrior as good as possible comes first, unless that warrior is to be considered pure DPS like other meleers.

[Kevin]

Could we do more damage if we dedicated some people to healing and told the others to go DPS on trash mobs?  Would druids do better in the tank healing parties?  I've heard some people say that druids can do well with tanks.
[right][snapback]94143[/snapback][/right]

Against trash mobs I usually don't even bother to heal with my druid unless we are really short on healers. Even a resto spec druid will probably do more damage than a holy/disc or disc/holy priest in nuke mode. The druid can also pop into cat form and play mini rogue on some mob types to help. Of course unless things go wrong (LoS, people not ready for the pull, etc) you can pretty much get away with just one healer for most of the trash mobs in MC with our current gearing levels.

Doing a more formal rotation would probably allow the healers to throw out more DPS and would cut down on too much healing to an injured target if healers that weren't in the MT rotations just healed their groups. But more DPS for the trash mobs doesn't really matter. At our current speeds it could save us all of a minute or two getting to a boss I think.

On the boss fights we have been more formal lately and we have been utilizing the druids a bit better though still treating them more as innervate batteries but we are still putting druids on the tanks who will be tanking the longest, we did this even when I didn't have innervate on our first take down of domo and while it got close it still worked. Of course some of the problem with the druids being more primary healers is the tanks getting used to it. Seeing more dips and spikes in their life. I've heard both Anadrol and Darian call out for healing with 2000 HP left still on mobs that will only crit for at most 1500. My heal is coming, it will land and you will live even if you get double crits.

Last night I used a lot of rejuv on people when they were at around 70% life. Sometimes that prevented another heal landing. But I was constantly using rejuv. 62% of my healing still came from healing touches, 30% from rejuv and 8% from regrowth (the mana inefficient frontloaded HoT). Healing touch was mostly rank 7 for touch ups because I can actually get that 3.0 second cast to land when I couldn't get the 3.5 to land in the past. :) I only had about 13% overhealing which is to be expected because I have my cut off set for my lower rank of healing touch so if I did use a higher. I used regrowth when I was in the druid/priest combo on the offtanks because I knew the HoT would run most of the time (making the mana eff not bad) and I did sometimes use my top rank healing touch there. I know that healing Seiki as an off tank on the dogs in the Golemag fight was ridiculously easy. So easy in fact that I used my innervate on one of Anadrols healers and moved myself to get in range of him on Golemag where I used a nature swiftness top rank healing touch on him at one point. There were times in my duo with Onan healing Anadrol in the Domo fight that I did wait a bit too long to do some of the heals and I think Onan threw some in there on me when I was doing the healing but I didn't need them to be there. I was just pushing the limits. :)

I often get about 4 or 5 heals just as I'm about to back off and bandage, so overhealing is happening.

You might be surprised at how little of that might be overhealing though. It could be a paladin flash of light hitting you for 300 or so health, a low rank druid heal hitting you for 800 or so and then a couple of priest flash heals in the 1000 or so range. So it might only be 3100-4000 health coming from those 4 or 5 heals that did land on you some of them may be HoTs as well so potentially less overheal there too. I know that when I'm doing an emergency heal on someone outside my watch that I throw a lower rank or weaker heal at them just to buy time for the bigger heal that I'm sure is coming or as a part of a bunch of smaller heals. I even use lower ranks of regrowth for this since it is a faster cast.

This actually varies considerably: I usually have more druids available than priests for Zul'gurub runs.

I can believe it is true for ZG but it has never been the case for a 40 man that we had more druids than priests. We have had the same number and there was an Ony run that was 2 priest, 2 druids and 6 paladins where the paladins did a lot of the healing. I also don't think healers are as critical in ZG though there are still several encounters in there I have not seen. But the trash mobs there really aren't that much more difficult than trash in UBRS/scholo/strat.

[Tuftears]

By stacking Warriors w/ as many meleers as fit, we can also take advantage of the Battle Shout. I have definately enjoyed the marked increase in use of that skill smile.gif But, in my eyes, making the Warrior as good as possible comes first, unless that warrior is to be considered pure DPS like other meleers.

Well, for the first two warriors, you definitely want 'main tank' type parties as you describe... For second two warriors, the MAs, I think packing for melee DPS is worth a try. Could be worth quizzing the hunters to see who has trueshot aura. Feral is still a rarity, but we have three feral druids around at least that I'm aware of, Cirya and Taranna, and Arshes from Prodigy.

I also don't think healers are as critical in ZG though there are still several encounters in there I have not seen. But the trash mobs there really aren't that much more difficult than trash in UBRS/scholo/strat.

Definitely critical on the boss battles... A difficult battle like Thekal needs a druid and priest on the MT, priest dispelling and manaburning Lor'khan, and two healers for the two OTs. Thus, five. Compare to 8-10 healers wanted for Molten Core, it's the same story writ small.

[Bolty]

Stylish image time!



Note: yeah, this is a big pic, but it's actually cropped...I play WoW in 1900x1200 res.

-Bolty