Terenas Friday Nov. 4

[Concillian]

I don't know if all quests can be done with just two trips in, though... but maybe some don't care too much about getting all the quests done (I'm not particular for example).  I just want to see the whole thing -- I like this place.
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There are two options for doing it in two trips:
1) leave early to go back to Kargath and turn in the first KOS for the second when on the first trip (too late for this)
2) Leave early to go back to Kargath and turn in the second KOS for the kill general Angerforge quest on the second trip.

That is the only tree parter that I'm aware of. The reward is one that at the very least, both tanks will probably want... a neckpiece with 10STR / 11STA / 4AGI / 5SPI

#2 should be an option for anyone who went last time, as they surely got the first KOS done.

For emperor, the Royal rescue quest requires succeding with Gor'shak then going to Org and coming back. There are likely several people who will want to turn this in and come back. I was struggling with how best to do this until I came up with this idea:

I park Lianne in Blackrock Mountain. We have a collective break time where both groups have finished Gor'shak and can take a break. Yuri ports everyone who needs to go to Org, to Org. The others wait while I switch to Lianne.

I pull people back and GG/Treesh heath to Kargath to turn in the first KOS and pick up the second then get summoned back again. If the instance resets it's no big, as Gor'shak is fairly independent of the rest of the instance, but we can try to keep the instances up.

One group will potentially have to do some additional killing of Angerforge types at the same time as Gor'shak to be sure to complete KOS part 1 for the dynamic duo.

The question is... who besides Conc doesn't need to go to Org? I think Kosch didn't get the quests after Killing Pyron and before finishing Gor'shak, so that leaves Nash, Rogoll and Gorkuk. I'm assuming all of these people completed the quest, which means we will have enough to summon, but if that assumption isn't true and one of those three somehow didn't complete it, then we need to have a longer haitus, as we can't do it all in one trip.

[Kevin]

The instance shouldn't reset for at least an hour if the party stays in tact (actually I think you just need to not change the leader). There are alliance chains that have you running out to Marshall's Refuge then stormwind and back to windsor and we often have breaks for people to do them so then we can kill arglemach and angerforge for the stuff you need from them. Sometimes the whole group will leave and run around for 30 minutes or so. Mob spawn timers are still ticking of course and you'll have pat respawns but most of the dwarves are on a 2 hour timer, possibly longer since alliance has to kill everything in both loops of the prison for the escort of Windsor.

Don't know if that is relevant I still haven't looked closely at the horde quests. That is what Friday morning/afternoon are for. :)

[Concillian]

I do not know if horde requires not touching her or just not killing her. The quest text says "Do not harm her"

[Treesh]

I do not know if horde requires not touching her or just not killing her.  The quest text says "Do not harm her"
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The alliance text says the same deal with the "Do not harm her" and we can get away with just not killing her, but keeping her close enough to the emperor when he dies that she'll stop attacking after he dies.

[Concillian]

The instance shouldn't reset for at least an hour if the party stays in tact (actually I think you just need to not change the leader).  There are alliance chains that have you running out to Marshall's Refuge then stormwind and back to windsor and we often have breaks for people to do them so then we can kill arglemach and angerforge for the stuff you need from them.  Sometimes the whole group will leave and run around for 30 minutes or so.  Mob spawn timers are still ticking of course and you'll have pat respawns but most of the dwarves are on a 2 hour timer, possibly longer since alliance has to kill everything in both loops of the prison for the escort of Windsor.

Don't know if that is relevant I still haven't looked closely at the horde quests. That is what Friday morning/afternoon are for.  :)
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Yeah, the dwarves are on a pretty long timer.

As far as quests, assuming you've done Pyron and all the other quest prep to get the 10 or 11 quests or whatever, then aside from going back to Org, the only quests that require running around are the lead ins to General Angerforge.

There is one KILL ON SIGHT! quest involving killing the lower level dwarves leading to another for killing higher level dwarves, then finally a third for Angerforge. All are on signs outside the Inn in Kargath, but they are only available in series. Kargath isn't a long ride, and we could potentially break twice, once for Org, and 2nd time for Kargath to turn in the second KILL ON SIGHT! before killing General Angerforge.

Good to know the instance won't reset, the groups will be shuffled around in order to port and summon people, but if leader is what matters most, then we should be able to shuffle so that leaders don't change.

[vor_lord]

Count 'em -- yes, that is 11, quite possibly our worst possible number.  There's no good way to solve this issue that I've thought of.  Anybody else have an idea?  Last time we had a bad number Yuri sat out so it shouldn't be him.
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Ok, first stab at organization! Please feel free to suggest improvements. I just figure the earlier we discuss it the more organized and prompt we'll be.

One guiding principle I'm trying to apply is time to start as that has been a concern. I'd like to target a pretty loaded group that will be able to do it all. These guys will be the "late" group, as we should be able to make the early group start before 8:30 (for Alram's sake especially). The early group will be a little less capable but will have the warlock for additional valuable CC.

Early Group (starting at 8?):
Durambar
Rogoll
Necrali
Octord
Kosch

Lacking in mage AoE, but good CC and a little backup healing for the priest. We can summon Kosch in if he can't make it on time (we won't need 5 until Gor'shak), or perhaps take someone else who is ready to go if it doesn't upset the balance too much.

Could take Gorkuk instead of Rogoll, but the Shanker drop is important and it's not a high percentage. I'll let you two guys decide (thanks to both of you for offering to sit out). Whoever sits out has a character that can help Flash and Shadowe with SM.

Another option is to take Rogoll until Spazzring, then especially if Alram is tired swap him out for Gorkuk for the later parts.

Late Group (starting as close to 8:30 as possible, but probably delayed a bit):
Conc
Mogo
Marn
Yuri
Nashkara

I'm not sure of Nash's new spec but I never saw innervate. I think Mogo will make sure that he is very well backed up healing wise. They have superior AoE and superior experience. No banish but Meowry will help in those darn elemental pulls.

[bonemage]

2) Leave early to go back to Kargath and turn in the second KOS for the kill general Angerforge quest on the second trip.
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I think we can do this, as Nashkara and Rogoll or Gorkuk should available to help with the summoning.

In related news, all lurkers on Terenas must roll and level a warlock to mid 50s...

:D

Thanks for having a high level character for all occasions, Concillian!

[bonemage]

I'd like a couple stabs at Gor'shak this Friday, so I suggest we try that quest right at the start, with Gorkuk instead of Kosch if he's late. We could reset and go again if we fail or if we need to do it again for someone else. As an idea, Magead might want to be there for that part, as Rogoll already has completed that quest, a way to cram in questing for both of Alram's high level characters without taking any additional time.

[Concillian]

I'd like a couple stabs at Gor'shak this Friday, so I suggest we try that quest right at the start, with Gorkuk instead of Kosch if he's late.  We could reset and go again if we fail or if we need to do it again for someone else.  As an idea, Magead might want to be there for that part, as Rogoll already has completed that quest, a way to cram in questing for both of Alram's high level characters without taking any additional time.
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I don't think Kosch had completed the Pyron quests to pick up several of the other quests (including Gor'shak) so waiting for him for that quest shouldn't be a bad idea.

Gor'shak can be done first thing, and 30 mins is probably about right for getting to him. Also with knowing what happens now, It's going to be tough to fail against him. One elite allows the tank to get a head start, then a ton of non-elites for AoEing.

[Concillian]

I think we can do this, as Nashkara and Rogoll or Gorkuk should available to help with the summoning.

In related news, all lurkers on Terenas must roll and level a warlock to mid 50s...

:D

Thanks for having a high level character for all occasions, Concillian!
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Next up: A high level mage logged out in all three cities for lightning fast inter-city transport. :P

(not really)

Anyway I was racking my brain trying to figure out how to get Octord back there too, and this seems to work so that all groups can at least have a shot at rescuing the princess.

[Concillian]

I'm not sure of Nash's new spec but I never saw innervate.  I think Mogo will make sure that he is very well backed up healing wise.  They have superior AoE and superior experience.  No banish but Meowry will help in those darn elemental pulls.
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I think the groups are fine like that. Both should have a pretty good shot at the princess, provided everyone is up for it.

I think Nash's spec is similar to GG's druid, 30/21 feral/resto. This is a pretty good 5 man utility setup, gives up innervate, but gains lots of capability for damage. If this is the case, I think it makes more sense for Mogo to primary since Nash can do more damage.

It would also free nash to have more threat margin for use of Tranquility since the Shaman "AoE heal" is umm... sucky? The shaman is also better at healing an AoEing mage with a short heal that doesn't eat half of it's own mana efficiency when spammed, and that frees Nash to add significant AoE damage through use of Hurricane, which has pretty darn good DPS as long as the Druid isn't getting beat on... which is made possible by having an IAE mage doing slightly better DPS.

This would even be plenty of AoE to power through the 5 elite pulls near the giant if it weren't for the fact that they all disarm and I wouldn't be able to keep up enough threat. I need a chain or a fist weapon (A tauren with a fist weapon would be an odd sight).

[Alram]

Barman Shanker is not the top notch weapon it used to be since the changes in the last patch, but it is still a nice dagger.

A thank you to Voiceman, who in my experience is always a team player.

[Kevin]

This would even be plenty of AoE to power through the 5 elite pulls near the giant if it weren't for the fact that they all disarm and I wouldn't be able to keep up enough threat.  I need a chain or a fist weapon (A tauren with a fist weapon would be an odd sight).
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Fist weapons can still be disarmed. Yes it makes no sense but Gnolack uses a fist weapon (Eskhandar's claw) as his primary now and he still gets disarmed. You need deathgrip guants out of baron side stratholme. :)

[vor_lord]

Was thinking about this, and I realized that Sap and Mind Control are mutually exclusive.

Mind Control is more effective (actually kills an enemy rather than just taking them out of combat for a time), but it slows the battle more, and is more dangerous when it fails.

How about if the early group tries to use Sap? If we have problems with it being broken that aren't being corrected, we can switch to mind control.

[Treesh]

Was thinking about this, and I realized that Sap and Mind Control are mutually exclusive.

Mind Control is more effective (actually kills an enemy rather than just taking them out of combat for a time), but it slows the battle more, and is more dangerous when it fails.

How about if the early group tries to use Sap?  If we have problems with it being broken that aren't being corrected, we can switch to mind control.
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Actually, they aren't. It just depends on how you use them. In BRD (although apparently they have changed things a bit), the demon dogs see through stealth and if there's one in a group, it makes it extremely difficult to sap. It used to make it basically impossible to sap (unless you got really, really lucky), but now, iirc, Ramala (Quark's level 60 rogue) has sapped a group close to dogs recently.

Anyway, you have to start the fight with a sap if you're going to attempt to sap. If the rogue has improved sap, there's much less risk involved. If Rogoll doesn't have improved sap (I just can't remember his spec right now), just make sure evasion is off of cooldown for some of the bigger groups. You can apply mind control after the fight starts. You've got Durambar in front of you. Warriors can actually tank multiple mobs. ;) :D (So can druids and pallies for what it's worth ;) ) When I mind control, I don't start the pull with a mind control (btw, if you try it in BRD, frequently even at level 60 I body pull before I'm in range of mind control, depending on which target I have). Yes, this means that not everything is beating on the mind controlled target, but if you're smart about what you mind control, you don't have to have it work that way and it will still be effective and won't slow down the fights. In going to Bael'Gar, I used mind control a lot. Instead of sheeping/sapping the medics, have the priest mind control one. You can use their mana to heal and if you alternate between the single target heal and the area of effect heal of the medic, it's actually pretty easy to heal and do your crowd control at the same time. It also has the added bonus of really pissing off the enemy into attacking your mind control target so there's less need of healing of your party members. You will also have a backup healer in the group with the priest so it's really not as risky to mind control as you might think for the groups of enemies that don't have healers in them. Outside of raiding, Aleri (dwarf priestess) is still frequently the only healer in the group, but I can frequently get away with mind controlling when I need to. Of course, it also helps that the folks in front of her are typically geared up a bit higher than us Terenas folks are, but even before any purples, she was mind controlling when necessary and keeping the group afloat. It shouldn't be an issue mind controlling and sapping in BRD for that group.

Edit: Also, with starting MC after the battle has begun, you also have one more "person" beating the crap out of the enemy. The quicker the others die, the less healing it takes for a fight too. :) It's also much more controllable aggro to do mind control after the pull. There isn't as big of a question about what critters are going to break off and try to eat what after the mind controlled mob is dead.

[vor_lord]

Anyway, you have to start the fight with a sap if you're going to attempt to sap.  If the rogue has improved sap, there's much less risk involved. 

Rogoll does have improved sap.

You can apply mind control after the fight starts.  You've got Durambar in front of you.  Warriors can actually tank multiple mobs.  ;) :D 

You're kidding!!!! Doesn't it hurt, especially dual wielding in berserker stance? Seriously though, if Durambar is going to be tanking multiple mobs, he'll need healing. Kosch is not really into healing, and I don't think I'm comfortable with that.

When I mind control, I don't start the pull with a mind control (btw, if you try it in BRD, frequently even at level 60 I body pull before I'm in range of mind control, depending on which target I have).

That's what Mind Soothe is for (and maybe not mind controlling the target you really wanted). This happened to me once last time, which is when I started mind soothing in trickier ones.

Yes, this means that not everything is beating on the mind controlled target, but if you're smart about what you mind control, you don't have to have it work that way and it will still be effective and won't slow down the fights.  In going to Bael'Gar, I used mind control a lot.  Instead of sheeping/sapping the medics, have the priest mind control one.  You can use their mana to heal and if you alternate between the single target heal and the area of effect heal of the medic, it's actually pretty easy to heal and do your crowd control at the same time. 
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Mind Controlling the medics during combat sounds like a good idea. But I'm not comfortable with being unable to heal in combat in most situations. Probably just that Necrali has very rarely ever had a backup healer along. Call me paranoid if you wish.

When Mogo is in my group, I'll go for it :P

[bonemage]

Kosch is not really into healing, and I don't think I'm comfortable with that.
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I'm even less comfortable with that. I still bear the scars of ST of a few weeks ago, where we crammed in as many players as possible for the first part to do class quests, and Kosch was the only healer. He has done so little healing (much more of a caster-eater shaman) in his time, that I watched Conc tank valiantly, and die without a single heal. I'm also still bearing the scars of Uldaman, where I had to use a potion in most fights just to give enough time for the FIRST heal to arrive.

The MCing of a healer and using it's mana to heal is novel though, and not something I'd considered.

Our biggest concern with MC aggro is not the other mobs, locking them down after they initially break for Necrali is trivial. It's the MCed mob that's a pain. If MC breaks early, it's quicker and easier to kill it than to regain aggro. Something on the order of 5 sunders, 3 revenges, lots of hits and a shield bash (3 taunts over 24 seconds as well) with full Defiance to gain aggro. All that rage is quite expensive when there are 4 other mobs to lock down. I usually just use my improved taunt as much as possible until we focus fire that one down, and spend my rage on the other mobs. Rapid killing is lot more effecient than tank locking a MC mob, IMO.

[Treesh]

You're kidding!!!!  Doesn't it hurt, especially dual wielding in berserker stance?  Seriously though, if Durambar is going to be tanking multiple mobs, he'll need healing.  Kosch is not really into healing, and I don't think I'm comfortable with that.

Funnily enough, I do let my warriors do that when I'm on Aleri. Makes things much more interesting. ;)

Go with what you're comfortable doing though. I used to be much more cautious with Aleri than I am now.

That's what Mind Soothe is for (and maybe not mind controlling the target you really wanted).  This happened to me once last time, which is when I started mind soothing in trickier ones.

Well, part of me body pulling was planned because I don't like the mind control pulls in general. I'd much rather mind control after pulls than before simply because if it (or mind soothe) gets resisted, everything comes to me and it's bad to have everything come to your only healer to start things off. Fade only works if someone else is registered on the hate list too. It was a harsh lesson to teach folks, but we lived anyway. ;) They let me mind control how I wanted to after that and things ran so much better after that. :D Yeah, I'm evil. :blush:

Mind Controlling the medics during combat sounds like a good idea.  But I'm not comfortable with being unable to heal in combat in most situations.  Probably just that Necrali has very rarely ever had a backup healer along.  Call me paranoid if you wish.

When Mogo is in my group, I'll go for it  :P
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I know how you feel. For the longest time mind control was more of a last resort/only if I have to skill because Aleri never had backup healing. What snapped her out of it was a Bael'Gar run. None of us had ever been there and we kept having big problems with the pulls so we decided that our tactics had to change so I went to mindcontrol a medic. Turns out the mage sheeped the same one I was going to mind control so I got a free look at the skills the medic had available and then I could safely release and go back to healing without bad things happening or trying to figure out the skills right there on the fly. You've got a warlock, correct? So you'll be more familiar with having a pet bar than some priests are. Yeah, you'll have to manually use the skills instead of just having them autocast, but that shouldn't be too much of an issue. If you aren't comfortable with forcing Kosch to "STFU and heal" ( :wub: to the enhancement shaman), then you may want to just worry about MC'ing only the medics rather than MCing things in the groups of dwarves without healers in them. MC'ing the medics allowed me to do both and was a good way to break out of that reluctance to use all the tools available to the priest. But trust me, I definitely know what it's like to run as the only healer in the group so you just don't want to take unnecessary risks. :) I was glad I was forced into mind controlling. It really helped my play. Of course, up to that point we were usually good on crowd control anyway so I didn't need to ever really worry about mind control.

Edit: "I" does not equal "We".

[vor_lord]

You've got a warlock, correct?  So you'll be more familiar with having a pet bar than some priests are.  Yeah, you'll have to manually use the skills instead of just having them autocast, but that shouldn't be too much of an issue. 
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Actually I've not played a pet class since a pre-talent Hunter in beta. I was wondering why I didn't have any spells to cast for my MC mob... and bonemage helped me realize it was because I'd actually hidden my pet bar altogether :lol: :blink:

So I'll get that sorted out before Friday and have some fun trying out healing with a MC mob!

Thanks for the help, Treesh.

[Treesh]

The MCing of a healer and using it's mana to heal is novel though, and not something I'd considered.

Our biggest concern with MC aggro is not the other mobs, locking them down after they initially break for Necrali is trivial.  It's the MCed mob that's a pain.  If MC breaks early, it's quicker and easier to kill it than to regain aggro.  Something on the order of 5 sunders, 3 revenges, lots of hits and a shield bash (3 taunts over 24 seconds as well) with full Defiance to gain aggro.  All that rage is quite expensive when there are 4 other mobs to lock down.  I usually just use my improved taunt as much as possible until we focus fire that one down, and spend my rage on the other mobs.  Rapid killing is lot more effecient than tank locking a MC mob, IMO.
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You can re-mind control. Pop a shield so your cast doesn't get stuttered (or just stutter it out. I've done both) and then recontrol him. You don't have to worry about getting aggro on that critter until after the fight's done and the MC critter is the only one left. With controlling a healer class, that's easier to do than if you're mind controlling a non-healing mob because you don't lose the healing. When the fight's done, Necrali can tell you when she's ready to release (make sure you speak up if your taunt is on cooldown or not), release, you hit taunt, Necrali hits fade. It will give you time to build up more hate and since that's the only critter left, you don't have to worry about trying to lock down other mobs.