Stastical Imbalance

[Lissa]

One of the biggest problems coming to light in the end game now is the fact that as non-Caster classes gear up, they become much more powerful gaining more from their gear while Casters languish with only small gains. Part of this comes from Blizzard's statistics creation process on items (where +damage/healing and +critical is expensive on items), but the big imbalance comes due to the 5 core stats.

If we look at the core stats, we have Strength, Agility, Stamina, Intellect, and Spirit. We can remove Stamina from this list as all classes need this to some extent and it only really does one thing, increase health similarly across the board for all classes. So let's break down the physical stats, Strenght and Agility, to the mental stats, Intellect and Spirit.

Strength and Agility combined for the physical classes gives the following benefits: increase melee attack power, incrase range attack power, increase dodge, increased armor, increase crit rates for physical attacks, increase parry (IIRC on this one).

Intellect increases mana and increases crit rate for spells.

Spirit increases regeneration, yet no mana regeneration is allowed for 5 seconds after casting a spell barring talent/special power.

This means that when looking at a piece of armor for non-Caster class, the non-Caster benefits far more from stats as they will gain a variety of side benefits from Strength and Agility. For a Caster, adding Intellect gives them a little more critical chance (1% every 100 points of Int) and more mana (can cast longer before running out of mana) and Spirit allows for mana regen during the fight if the caster takes breaks between casting to regenerate mana.

If you compare the Tier 1 non-Caster sets to the Tier 1 Caster sets as well as the weapons each would benefit from the most, non-Casters get around a 30 DPS improvement over their Blue sets and weapons while Casters get around a total of 12 DPS to their Tier 1 sets and weapons. The descrepancy grows even larger when you get to the Tier 2 items as well (case in point, Nemisis, the Warlock Tier 2 armor set, gains only about 6 total DPS over Felheart, the Warlock Tier 1 armor set).

As such, Blizzard needs to relook at what benefits the casting oriented stats give beyond just more mana, crit chance with spells, and regeneration to allow for Casters to try to keep up with non-Casters. Suggestions that have been put forth has been having X points of Spirit and/or Intellect increasing base +damage/healing. Another would be the higher your Intellect or Spirit, the more likely you are to be able to get around resistance someone has, say set a threshold of 300 in one of the stats and then say that every 3 or 4 points above that would lower the target's effective resistance to your spell by 1. In the end though, something needs to be added to make Caster stats more balanced towards the non-Caster physical stats.

[Zippyy]

I don't have anything to add except to say that this problem of gear upgrades being far more beneficial to melee types than caster types extends beyond WoW and into just about every game I have ever played.

Think "naked mage" vs "naked warrior" from D1 and consider which classes stand to lose the most if stripped naked and weaponless in WoW. World of Roguecraft aside, I think non-casters need their equipment more than casters do.

I know I'm dodging some of the other issues attached to this, but this post isn't meant to assert any view, just to help bring a little more perspective to the issue?

I'm really not sure how I feel about this. I play mage types in almost every game, and I've grown used to it.

[Kevin]

I never quite understood why they just didn't have a spell power stat, like melee or ranged attack power. Weapon levels have a base damage range for the level in game design it's not too hard to match spells to that then have int and spi have some effect on the spell power, one for damage, one for crit, just like with melee/ranged attacks. You can add some new weapon types or just put more int or spi on weapons or +spell power instead of +attack power on things. Or have weapon speed affect channeling power (or just add a channeling power factor to existing weapons) so that you can use the same type of formulas that you have for melee stuff. Spells have a base speed but that changes based on the channeling power of the weapon and also changes the bonus you get from spell power. So you have a fast channelling weapon that lets you get the spell off faster than normal but you get no or very little benefit from spell power. You have a slow channeling weapon that gives you full spell power bonus but slowss the cast speed of the spell.

The issue is of course mana. Well scale the mana cost as well so you do the dmg/MP or healing/mp per cast. You channel faster you do less damage spend more mana you channel slower do more damage spend more mana.

Yeah this would mean base cast times of many spells would have to be changed but I just don't quite get why a system like this wasn't used in the first place when they knew itemiztion was going to be character progression at L60. So do you want that base cast of 2 second heal, base mana of 500 to go off in 1.5 seconds and do 800 health for 375 mana; take 2 seconds and heal 1066 health for 500 mana; or take 2.5 seconds and heal 1333 health for 625 mana, depending on what weapon you have equipped. Now keep in mind that if your raise your spell power, via int or something, you can keep that 2 second heal at 500 mana but it now does 1200 health not from +damg or +healing but from getting your spellpower up 300 points or whatever.

You now start to add a whole new dimension to PvP as well. And you can keep the global 1.5 second cooldown for weapon swaps they added. So you now have a way to get weaker spells off quicker or you can have longer cast high damage spells. Pretty much like the choices a lot of other classes get to make. Some spells that are more "ritualisitic" could be left unaffected such as summoning a pet, conjuring water, making a healthstone. Instant cast spells would get a flat percentage of spellpower since they aren't channeled in any way. Currently channeled spells migh get a higher or lower chance to be interrupted from the gear you have or they stay the same and just get a higher spellpower bonus.

Dunno maybe there is another huge flaw in this.

[Lissa]

I don't have anything to add except to say that this problem of gear upgrades being far more beneficial to melee types than caster types extends beyond WoW and into just about every game I have ever played.

Think "naked mage" vs "naked warrior" from D1 and consider which classes stand to lose the most if stripped naked and weaponless in WoW.  World of Roguecraft aside, I think non-casters need their equipment more than casters do.

I know I'm dodging some of the other issues attached to this, but this post isn't meant to assert any view, just to help bring a little more perspective to the issue?

I'm really not sure how I feel about this.  I play mage types in almost every game, and I've grown used to it.
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Problem is, when going from blue to purple to orange, non-Casters gain great benefits, Casters gain little to none because of the point based system that Blizzard uses when creating items. Those items that would help Casters greatly are highly expensive so we see very little boost from on tier up to the next while for non-Casters, general statistics with liberal bonuses like +crit or +dodge, gain great benefits in their power. The problem is non-Casters continue to rise linearly (or close to it) in power while Casters tend to have a very gentle slope of increasing power with items. This is the problem of why Casters are statistically imbalanced compared to the non-Casters due to what the physical attributes give compared to the mental attributes.

[TheWesson]

Casters are different because they are supposed to be limited by the mana bar (but have very cool abilities while not OOM.)

I have heard high level mages say that after a certain point +int doesn't help any, because they basically have "enough mana" for the fights they get.

What you really need, then, is a use for the extra int. That is, translate extra int into extra killing power.

I would suggest what you really need is the equivalent of lvl 62, 64, 66, 68, 70 "spell ranks" which would allow you to turn mana into healing or damage faster. These would be in books which would drop in the higher level instances, and thus caster DPS can keep up with melee DPS. These "librams" would be the equivalent of the rogue or warrior weapons and armor. These new spells could have more damage for more mana, or they could have shortened casting times a la Gnollguy above -- whatever, just as long as you could burn mana better.

Then the high lvl casters would once again be made more powerful by +int items.

Or put +rank on other items, clothes or weapons or wands. I think that getting books would be the best; it would inspire a lot of activity without any individual book usually making or breaking your character.

I have nothing against adding damage to Int or making Spirit a useful stat either, though.

[savaughn]

I have heard high level mages say that after a certain point +int doesn't help any, because they basically have "enough mana" for the fights they get.
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Actually, this is another problem with caster itemization. See, if you're going into a 15 minute boss fight, you don't have enough mana. If you're talking about a PvP match that is over in 45s where you die with 5k mana... you have far too much.

If my rogue gets a lot of DPS gear with a good amount of stamina on it, life is great. One set and it works across the board. Warrior, hunter, same story.

A caster in instance gear is not a caster who is in PvP gear. Priests are probably the best example of this. The +shadow gear of a PvP priest is swapped out for the +healing gear of the raiding priest. Sure, the non-casters can optimize their gear one way or the other, but we're not talking about trying to collect two completely different sets here.

Now, yes, there are exceptions. The MT in MC has an MC suit. But the Might set kicks butt in PvP.

Take a look at Arcanist. That set is good for a) ice mages who B) are interested in raiding heavily. It's an MC farming suit. If you get the entire set from start to finish, and do all the work required to do so... you are insignificantly improved in PvP since the whole set together adds +46 to damage. Joy. 4 months of work and you're completely unimproved for 1/2 the end game.

[Artega]

I have two complete sets of armor, including different weapons, rings, trinkets, and necklaces.

My PvP set is comprised of various types armor, including mail and a piece or two of leather. It also sacrifices Stamina in lieu of Strength and Agility. In group PvP, I will not live long to begin with, because once they kill my healers (and they WILL kill my healers before they even look at me), I will die very quickly indeed. Therefore, I spec to be able to the most damage possible in the shortest amount of time.

My tanking set is full plate, and sacrifices Agility for more Stamina, and places a very heavy emphasis on resistances and Defense, as well as Armor. My main hand weapon becomes a very fast weapon (Silent Fang), and my offhand weapon is replaced by a shield (Draconian Deflector or Barrier Shield, dependant on the type of mobs.)

That's not to say that I couldn't PvP well in my tanking gear (I sometimes do), but for maximum efficiency, I swap entire sets of armor. It's just like a Priest switching from Shadow gear to Holy gear.

[WildFire]

Here's something I had in another thread...

As for itemization, I am leery in that being used as a way of boosting damage as it currently is for both casters and meleers. It feels like D2 all over again.

But for casters specifically, I think they had the right idea with priest racial skills and warlock pet quests. I would love to see new spells and abilities for different races be made available post level 50 through quests, with maybe an epic long-drawn out one, akin to the current hunter and priest epic weapon ones, at level 60 for a really uber spell - maybe a fire-based one for Humans and Trolls in Searing Gorge, and a frost-based one for Gnomes and Forsaken in Winterspring.

So, in summary... non-casters raid for itamz, casters should raid for spells and abilities.

[TheWesson]

...
Actually, this is another problem with caster itemization.  See, if you're going into a 15 minute boss fight, you don't have enough mana.  If you're talking about a PvP match that is over in 45s where you die with 5k mana... you have far too much.
...
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I get your point, but ...
(I'm sure I'm displaying my ignorance here) ...

in a 15 min boss fight, you're getting Evocation x2 aren't you?
and ... mages aren't supposed to be standing there blazing away for 15 min solid or are they?
and ... wouldn't you swap out for some Spirit gear if you knew a 15-min fight was coming?

of course it would be nice if Blizzard made Spirit useful, I have no idea why they thought they had to nerf it so hard. If you don't want casters casting continuously, doesn't the 5-second rule already take care of that? They could multiply the effect of Spirit by 10 without making it overpowered IMO. That would make 1 Spirit equal to 1 Int given 12 seconds to recharge. I.e., if your Int = Spirit, would take 12 seconds to refill your mana bar. (OK so that would be borderline overpowered. But still!)

Sorry, I had to throw that in there, because Spirit chronically irritates me.

Anyhow good point about caster itemization.

[Chesspiece_face]

Keep an eye on blizzcon coming up in the next few weeks. They are going to be revealing the expansion for WoW there and i have a good feeling that the addition of the Hero classes is going to add a lot to Post 60 character development. Especially for caster classes that rely much more heavily on Skills as opposed to Items to advance their characters.

If my understanding is correct Hero classes will operate much like class upgrades in games such as Fire Emblem and Shining Force. Once you get to lvl 60 you can do a quest/get an item/whatever and then change your class into an improved version of the base class and continue leveling that one up.

[Skandranon]

I get your point, but ...
(I'm sure I'm displaying my ignorance here) ...

in a 15 min boss fight, you're getting Evocation x2 aren't you?
and ... mages aren't supposed to be standing there blazing away for 15 min solid or are they?
and ... wouldn't you swap out for some Spirit gear if you knew a 15-min fight was coming?
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Firstly, there are very few fifteen minute boss fights in the game. I can think of only two offhand, and in neither of them does mana really matter. The longest fight in Molten Core is Ragnaros at around six-seven minutes if you're going to win; everything else, though it may feel longer, is only around five or so minutes.

You'll get two evocations in a fight that lasts fifteen minutes (10 min cooldown). Fights that last this long won't require them.

Yes, in most fights mages are expected to be blazing away for the duration if they're not decursing. Only for the really long fights is it untrue. One that most Lurkers should be familiar with is the Magmadar encounter, where mages are expected to (and should be able to) fire at maximum rate for at least five minutes continuously. Geddon, Sulfuron, Golemagg - all need mages firing the whole time.

As for Spirit gear - kind of, not really. The break-even point for 1 spirit versus 1 int for a fight with mage armor is six minutes, forty seconds, so for Rag you might vaguely consider it except that you're wearing mostly fire resistance gear anyway. The few endurance pieces you might consider would be +mana/5sec gear.

[Skandranon]

Take a look at Arcanist.  That set is good for a) ice mages who B) are interested in raiding heavily.  It's an MC farming suit.  If you get the entire set from start to finish, and do all the work required to do so... you are insignificantly improved in PvP since the whole set together adds +46 to damage.  Joy.  4 months of work and you're completely unimproved for 1/2 the end game.
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Actually, Arcanist is more of a PvP set than anything else due to the enormous amounts of intellect and stamina on it. +Stats favours PvP because of the short nature of PvP engagements. +damage is helpful for PvP too, no doubt, but it's more critical for PvE where you will be casting dozens of spells in single engagements and where the accumulative benefit of the damage adds up.

The truth is that in all the Molten Core boss fights right now, my gear could provide me with +1000 intellect (that's fifteen thousand more mana) and +1000 spirit and my role would not significantly change or grow greater. I would crit 10% more of the time with spells, so in return for these 2000 stat points I would have a 10% DPS increase. Heck, throw +1000 stamina on there and I still don't really derive any benefit - I still can't tank or anything. BWL makes stamina more important for PvE, though.

[savaughn]

Actually, Arcanist is more of a PvP set than anything else due to the enormous amounts of intellect and stamina on it.
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Stamina's always useful in PvP but Arcanist isn't a stamina set. It only has 112 total - you can do better in blues (Dreadmist: 114). Arcanist is an Int set. If you wear Arcanist while PvPing, you just die with a whole lot of mana left over.

Give me +dmg/+crit/etc gear for PvP. The only stat a caster should even consider for PvP is Sta.

[Skandranon]

Stamina's always useful in PvP but Arcanist isn't a stamina set.  It only has 112 total - you can do better in blues (Dreadmist: 114).  Arcanist is an Int set.  If you wear Arcanist while PvPing, you just die with a whole lot of mana left over.

Yeah, it's more of an int/sta set, which is to say the kind of gear which is uber for UBRS and not any place else. Still, for epics, Arcanist is about the best stamina you'll find for mages.

Give me +dmg/+crit/etc gear for PvP.  The only stat a caster should even consider for PvP is Sta.
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Heh, this is a bit contradictory. I agree with the second half, though. Sta > all, including +damage, for PvP.

[savaughn]

Heh, this is a bit contradictory.  I agree with the second half, though.  Sta > all, including +damage, for PvP.
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True, true. I was thinking "+dam/crit" rather than +int. My perfect PvP gear would be a set with +sta, +dam with +crit bonuses and a bit o' int and spirit for flavor.