Just Another Political Post.

[eppie]

Care to elaborate on that?

--when a state starts arresting political enemies for example. Another example are most dictatorships, in a normal society people can always fall back on the government to help them. If the government is wrong, you don't have anybody to fall back on. (of course your gun, if you have one)

Over here we have the problem where the state is too civil, and things have gone really wrong.  When you find out on the news that a P-crazed child murderer had 200 prior convictions, surely you have to say a serious WTF.  How on earth can a state allow a citizen to rack up 200+ convictions.  Surely any more than 3 (or 10? or 50?) is more than enough to indicate someone that is not civilised enough for civilisation???
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It is always very dangerous in discussions to use these random examples. It is very difficult for me to react on this, because I don't know anything about the case. But I know that people that commited crimes like smoking softdrugs or drunk driving later sometimes finish in very nice jobs, so just arresting them and sending them to prison for years is not always the right thing.

[Occhidiangela]

--when a state starts arresting political enemies for example.

1.  Another example are most dictatorships, in a normal society people can always fall back on the government to help them. If the government is wrong, you don't have anybody to fall back on. (of course your gun, if you have one)

But I know that people that commited crimes like smoking softdrugs or drunk driving later sometimes finish in very nice jobs, so just arresting them and sending them to prison for years is not always the right thing.
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Two different points you are commenting on.

1. There is no such thing as a normal society. Each society has its own quirks and nuances. Its own character.

2. The attitude of dependency on government that you propose is uniquely Enlightenment Elitist European in origin, and has a substantial fan base in certain sectors in America. It is the appeal to the citizen to be a victim and a sheep who looks to the paternalistic shepard state. We covered the dynamic of shepard and sheep previously. Got lube? :blink:

3. I tend to agree with you :D on your last bit, in that prison is not the one size fits all answer to all crimes, particularly misdemeanors. and that increasing the prison population is a negative trend in a civilized society. I'd like to see less folks in jail for being drug users, and more chain gangs and road clean up crews.

Occhi

[eppie]

Two different points you are commenting on.

1.  There is no such thing as a normal society.  Each society has its own quirks and nuances.  Its own character.

-my mistake, I meant normal western democracy

2.  The attitude of dependency on government that you propose is uniquely Enlightenment Elitist European in origin, and has a substantial fan base in certain sectors in America.  It is the appeal to the citizen to be a victim and a sheep who looks to the paternalistic shepard state.  We covered the dynamic of shepard and sheep previously. Got lube?  :blink:

No I also mean this for for example the US. You have a justice system, which is supposed to protect it's citizens, not being a tool of the state to get rid of political enemies. (I know this goes wrong once in a while e.g. the "communist hunt" of Mccarthy, or the racist crimes in the south in the 20th century). If you don't have a common idea of what teh state should do to protect her citizens in a fair and equal way, you don't have much basis for being a state.

3.  I tend to agree with you  :D  on your last bit, in that prison is not the one size fits all answer to all crimes, particularly misdemeanors. and that increasing the prison population is a negative trend in a civilized society.  I'd like to see less folks in jail for being drug users, and  more chain gangs and road clean up crews.

Occhi
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There was actually a kind of joke there, I was referring to Bush and Clinton.

[whyBish]

whybish, could you elaborate on that?

Was this individual convicted of child murder 200 times and still not incarcerated?  :blink:  Or was it 200 convictions for possession/trafficing in "P" ?  (What exactly is "P" anyway?)   
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Yeah, i was trying to when I did the original post, but I couldn't find any links available on free websites ( I now have to relinquish my Google black belt :P )

The prior convictions were for various thing up to and including drug offenses,domestic violence and breaking-and-entering.

There was a three-strikes bill a number of years back that didn't get very far due to the beliefs that everyone is redeemable. I fall on the other side... everyone has potential, but once someone shows that they disregard the rules of society (repeatedly??) then change is unlikely.

How biased towards the offender we are over here is shown by this article:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?...bjectid=3582201
With comments from :http://capitaldiary.blogspot.com/2004_07_01_capitaldiary_archive.html which nicely point out that money spent on criminals is at the expense of those who have never committed crime:
"
I believe Niusila should be deported back to Tuvalu. We have a man who, as an overstayer, was shown compassion by being given dialysis treatment. He then assaulted his wife and again, through compassion, avoided the full consequences of his actions. This is a man without regard to the law and to the society who has provided him with life-saving medical treatment. The consequences of deportation will be Niusila's death and that is a heavy moral burden. But dialysis treatment costs $70,000 per year per patient. New Zealand currently spends $600,000 per year treating foreign patients for kidney conditions. Niusila is using valuable health resources that could be used to save other people's lives. It is easy to point to Niusila and claim deportation is a death sentence; but what of the countless, unnamed, more deserving others who are not receiving treatment. Why should they be denied treatment because this man is receiving chance after chance?
"

"P" is the street name of a psychotic drug... methamphetamine.

[whyBish]

It is always very dangerous in discussions to use these random examples.
[right][snapback]90283[/snapback][/right]

Yes agreed. Very sorry about that. My point, sans example, was more along the lines of:
a ) How many chances do you give someone of commiting a violent crime / property offense?
b ) How many chances do you give someone of committing numerous 'minor' crimes?
c ) How justified is it to spend money keeping people incarcerated as opposed to free money up by killing them and redistributing it to law abiding citizens?
d ) What's the chance of my grannie being wrongly convicted as opposed to being a victim of someone that has committted a previous offense? (Answer zero, they have both passed :( )

[Occhidiangela]

You have a justice system, which is supposed to protect it's citizens, not being a tool of the state to get rid of political enemies. (I know this goes wrong once in a while e.g. the "communist hunt" of Mccarthy, or the racist crimes in the south in the 20th century). If you don't have a common idea of what teh state should do to protect her citizens in a fair and equal way, you don't have much basis for being a state.There was actually a kind of joke there, I was referring to  Bush and Clinton.
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Senator McCarthy, for all that his witch hunt was an exercise in bluster, was fundamentally on the right track, as there were indeed plenty of communist sympatizers, moles and infiltrators in our government in the 1950's a nd on into the 1980's. The "Who Lost China" red herring strikes me in retrospect as typical American myopia and hubris, in that it ignored certain realities on the ground in Asia. McCarthy's methods were inelegant, his targets often well hidden and well protected, and the related body in the House of Representatives , HUAC, were likewise clumsy and frequentlly aiming eratically. They ran into a well run counter propaganda campaign, to include Arthur Miller's excellent play "The Crucible" which satirizes witch hunts.

What you probably don't understand, as a coddled, protected, Generation Whine Euro Socialist, eppie, is that Communists explicitly used infiltration, false flag operations, and systemic propaganda campaigns to undermine and overthrow more open societies, as well as more dictatorial governments. That was a fundamental part of their Modus Operandi. The aim was the International supremacy of Commuinism and Socialism, depending on who was carrying the banner. They were not alone in all of the methods they used, Sun Tzu's book was well read the world over.

As to the rest, you are speaking out of your backside. You choose not to understand the difference between being a state and being a constitutional republic and the separation of powers; you obviously don't get the problems of scale between small and large nation states; you time and again demonstrate cluelessness regarding the down side of inconsistent cultural assumptions and how multiculturalism is a DIVISIVE force on a society, for all that it adds a marvelous variety and texture. Functioning and stable societies are based on agreed norms. The more norms vary, the more chaotic the society.

Do you want to keep making a fool of yourself? Your call.

Occhi

[eppie]

Do you want to keep making a fool of yourself?  Your call. 

Occhi
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The only thing I know right now is that you are still (again) in your anal phase.
And I must say it is getting a bit irritating that every time you react on my words, you have to use some sophisticated word for faeces or anus. I have no idea why you keep doing this and I kindly ask you to stop this. Also because it doesn't add anything to the discussion.

My opinion that force by a state (or whatever you want to call it) on it's own citizens, is something that should be considered very carefully before it is used.
You must agree that the throwing poltical enemies out of planes in Argentina, was not right. And I understand the case of Mcarthy. But you must agree that lot's of innocent people have suffered from his dealings. And those were mainly friendly people who were social(ist) and did not harm anybody. And that is the danger I was talking about. If a country wishes to start conducting these practices, anybody can be arrested and maltreated......as long as the police say he is a communist...why not trust them.

[jahcs]

How biased towards the offender we are over here is shown by this article:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?...bjectid=3582201
With comments from :http://capitaldiary.blogspot.com/2004_07_01_capitaldiary_archive.html which nicely point out that money spent on criminals is at the expense of those who have never committed crime:
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Whenever someone reduces a morality argument down to a question of money it short-changes everyone. (Sorry, I couldn't think of wording that avoids a bad pun. :blush: ) It may become a necessary part of the discusion but you can't truly discuss ethics and morality by reducing it down to monetary considerations.

[whyBish]

Whenever someone reduces a morality argument down to a question of money it short-changes everyone.  (Sorry, I couldn't think of wording that avoids a bad pun. :blush: )  It may become a necessary part of the discusion but you can't truly discuss ethics and morality by reducing it down to monetary considerations.
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I thought I would be hard pressed to find someone that would support the right of a criminal to lifesaving treatment over the right ofa law-abiding citizen to that exact same treatment.

We don't have an infinite cup, so resources need to be allocated. Why tie up the judicial system, the medical system, and the police dealing with an:
- illegal immigrant
- wife beating
- leecher
- who was discharged without conviction so that he wouldn't get deported
- and then beat his wife again.
I'd rather see the money go to 100 heart bypass operations for law abiding citizens than lifetime dialysis for a repeat violent offender like this one.

It is lucky for him that I have limited say in public spending. My recent voting attempts to change the government to one that would have kicked him out didn't quite go well enough ;)

[Occhidiangela]

The only thing I know right now is that you are still (again) in your anal phase.
And I must say it is getting a bit irritating that every time you react on my words, you have to use some sophisticated word for faeces or anus. I have no idea why you keep doing this and I kindly ask you to stop this. Also because it doesn't add anything to the discussion.

And I understand the case of Mcarthy. But you must agree that lot's of innocent people have suffered from his dealings. And those were mainly friendly people who were social(ist) and did not harm anybody. And that is the danger I was talking about. If a country wishes to start conducting these practices, anybody can be arrested and maltreated......as long as the police say he is a communist...why not trust them.
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1. Your reductionist crap regarding McCarthy and how Communists were dealt with is beyond laughable. Your belief that myth is equal to history is appalling. You call me anal, I call you an under informed fool. OK, maybe we have pounded that horse into glue.

2. I honestly don't care about how Argentines deal with their political enemies, or their citizens. I am not familiar enough with what you are referring to for further comment, although as a general principle I do not equate a "political enemy" (there's a loaded term) with a murderer or narcotics dealer. What I do care about is how America treats its people. We have enough traitors in my country who sell secrets to Russians, Chinese, Israelis, Saudis, etc, to keep my concern focused at home.

3. Argentina either will or won't exorcise such demons as infect their society. That's their cross to bear. I can sincerely wish them the best of luck in undergoing reform processes that bear fruit.

Occhi

[jahcs]

I agree with you WhyBish. This guy needs to be kicked out, he has overstayed his welcome. Does his home country not have 1 dialysis machine? Let his home country decide if he is worthy to use the machine. He has been found unworthy to stay in your country. And whichever judge allowed "- who was discharged without conviction so that he wouldn't get deported" should be called to task for not doing their job. The judge's job is to hear cases, not ignore them because of other considerations.

All I was saying is that the argument can't be reduced to a strictly monetary one. Otherwise we wouldn't have the appeal process and only one punishment, a $0.72 rifle cartridge. It's cheaper than jail, rehab, the probation system, deportation, and even the staff it takes to collect court assesed fines. Just get a rifle, an open pit grave, and someone who doesn't mind getting rid of "society's problems" one slow exhalation and trigger squeeze at a time.

[whyBish]

All I was saying is that the argument can't be reduced to a strictly monetary one.  [right][snapback]90996[/snapback][/right]

Yup, otherwise I also have a good arguement to go postal in most government departments due to their inefficiencies.... trouble is, my firm develops IT solutions for government agencies so that they can automate their inefficiencies :huh:

[jahcs]

Yup, otherwise I also have a good arguement to go postal in most government departments due to their inefficiencies.... trouble is, my firm develops IT solutions for government agencies so that they can automate their inefficiencies  :huh:
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Ah, so it is your fault! :P

[Taem]

Wrong again.  It is revenge, it is pest extermination, but it is most defnitely not entertainment.  For the religious, the truly Faithful and the hypocrites out there, it is commanded explicitly in the Old Testament in the Law of Moses, in the same book that yields the Ten Commandments.  That is its cultural lineage in the West. 

Now, I'd like to see all executions televised, like the hangings in the Old West in the town square.  Nothing like a little blood sport to make people's day.  But we don't, so be it.

Occhi
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Intro: I must start by saying I'm writing this as I'm thinking it and my wife is yelling at me to help clean-up after dinner so the pressure is building <ouch... just got one of those icy piercing stares that penetrate threw your entire body... got to go very soon>.

I've read this entire thread over the last couple of days and felt compelled to state my opinion: I thus far agree 100% with everything Occhidiangela has stated in regards to his views on law, especially the Death Penalty.

With mandatory DNA testing for criminals becoming the norm, there will be far fewer innocent 'victims' wrongly imprisoned and executed, however while writing this, the thought occurred to me: how does one fit a criminals description so precise as to become suspect for a crime they didn't commit? It seems only logical to me these poor saps probably don't live exemplary lifestyles to be suspect in the first place. This being said, I wouldn't feel nearly as bad for those "innocent" people who get axed because I don't see myself or my family falling into any criminal labels; feels like this thought could be fleshed out more but since it's more of a passing thought, I'll just leave it there.

I also understand where eppie is coming from because I wouldn't want to be the "innocent" one having my life cut short, however, as I said before, I don't see that happening. As to the humane merits of such an act, "eye-for-an-eye." History has taught us that violence never solves anything, however behavioral science teaches that true criminals never really learn their lesson so if a thief steals, he should loose a hand so he cannot do it again. If a child molester rapes innocent children, his 'piece' should be castrated to prevent him from such acts ever again - why bother with "worrying" if a sex offender lives in your neighborhood because the government didn't do it's job "rehabilitating" it's prisoner. How fair is it for us to shoulder that burden, on our children? No my friend, eye for an eye...

As for religious thoughts on the subject, the Old Testament was/is wroth with such acts dictated from god as, "Kill every man, woman, child, and animal of the country you enter [even thou they are probably poor innocent sheep herders] or you will suffer my wrath."

I promise to checkup on this thread when I have time. The end has come, or it will soon if I don't help put the kids to bed.

[Occhidiangela]

Intro: I must start by saying I'm writing this as I'm thinking it and my wife is yelling at me to help clean-up after dinner so the pressure is building <ouch... just got one of those icy piercing stares that penetrate threw your entire body... got to go very soon>.==snip==
I promise to checkup on this thread when I have time. The end has come, or it will soon if I don't help put the kids to bed.
[right][snapback]91186[/snapback][/right]

I know that feeling all too well. Please allow me a chuckle at your expense, from a fellow gaze induced piercee.*

Occhi


(*Is that even a word?)

[Doc]

I have mixed feelings on the death penalty. On one hand, it's death. Cold and final. On the other, it's death. The easy way out. No suffering for your entire life in a cramped smelly cell.

Also, how they die irks me somewhat.

A good while back ago, a man was spared the death penalty because he had a well documented phobia of needles. Panic attacks. The works. He went bat#$%& crazy when he saw needles. A court determined that killing him by lethal injection would have been cruel and unusual punishment. Inhumane. And yet, this guy had killed several folk in the most brutal fashion you could imagine. No thought was given to those people, who probably had a phobia of somebody killing them.

In cases where the death penalty is used, I don't think it should be swift and painless. I think it should be brutal and painful. And a man (or woman) should have some time to think about what they did before they die. Now, I don't mean torture... But they have made the termination process as painless as possible now. Hell, they give the condemned a considerable dose of Valium before the procedure even starts, so they are off in lala land.

I dunno. I think the condemned should either be hung with a short drop so the neck doesn't break and they have to struggle for a while... Or they should be tied to a post or a chair. No blindfold, no smoke. And somebody should come up and shoot them in the brainstem.

[Occhidiangela]

I have mixed feelings on the death penalty. On one hand, it's death. Cold and final. On the other, it's death. The easy way out. No suffering for your entire life in a cramped smelly cell.

Also, how they die irks me somewhat.

A good while back ago, a man was spared the death penalty because he had a well documented phobia of needles. Panic attacks. The works. He went bat#$%& crazy when he saw needles. A court determined that killing him by lethal injection would have been cruel and unusual punishment. Inhumane. And yet, this guy had killed several folk in the most brutal fashion you could imagine. No thought was given to those people, who probably had a phobia of somebody killing them.

In cases where the death penalty is used, I don't think it should be swift and painless. I think it should be brutal and painful. And a man (or woman) should have some time to think about what they did before they die. Now, I don't mean torture... But they have made the termination process as painless as possible now. Hell, they give the condemned a considerable dose of Valium before the procedure even starts, so they are off in lala land.

I dunno. I think the condemned should either be hung with a short drop so the neck doesn't break and they have to struggle for a while... Or they should be tied to a post or a chair. No blindfold, no smoke. And somebody should come up and shoot them in the brainstem.
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Industrial strength woodchipper.

Occhi

[Doc]

Industrial strength woodchipper.

Occhi
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Or you could make them a "Governor" of a small, deserted, remote island.

Woodchipper? No. I would have pity on the poor chap that had to clean that up.

Unless of course you made the condemned clean it up so they could see what they were in for.

[jahcs]

As for making them live with their crime life imprisonment at hard labor works for me.

For the death penalty don't coddle them, but don't get crazy with it either. A quick death. The goal of that punishment is death, not mutilation/suffering.

[whyBish]

No thought was given to those people, who probably had a phobia of somebody killing them.

:P

In cases where the death penalty is used, I don't think it should be swift and painless. I think it should be brutal and painful. And a man (or woman) should have some time to think about what they did before they die.
[right][snapback]91190[/snapback][/right]

Seems pointless to me. Why invest in teaching someone a lesson and then end their life? Unless you believe in something after death other than decomposition