Debuff limit will be changed to 16 in patch 1.7

[vor_lord]

Clicky!

[bonemage]

Clicky!
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This is big, this is a pretty big buff for a class that has grown accustomed to the nerf bat (warlocks), though it affects everyone. A party of five can easily overwrite debuffs on standard mobs, so this will help out.

Good news!

[Tal]

This is big, this is a pretty big buff for a class that has grown accustomed to the nerf bat (warlocks), though it affects everyone.  A party of five can easily overwrite debuffs on standard mobs, so this will help out.

Good news!
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This is great news. On a recent five man run we kept experiencing a problem with the humanoids running so I judged Seal of Justice to keep them around. Yet they kept running and I was getting confused thinking their was a stealth change to how the seal worked. Turns out the debuff was getting knocked off the list... :)

[Brista]

Am I the only one who still thinks this is a dumb limit?

OK, so from being usually screwed we are now just occasionally screwed. That's progress.

But why have a debuff limit at all when there's no buff limit?

[Bun-Bun]

Am I the only one who still thinks this is a dumb limit?

OK, so from being usually screwed we are now just occasionally screwed. That's progress.

But why have a debuff limit at all when there's no buff limit?
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I suspect the devs were worried about kiting on a raid scale. I think the devs had nightmares of 40-warlock Onyxia raids where all of them do Curse of Doom-DoT-DoT-DoT and run around like headless chickens until Onyxia expires from exhaustion.

[TheLuminaire]

I suspect the devs were worried about kiting on a raid scale. I think the devs had nightmares of 40-warlock Onyxia raids where all of them do Curse of Doom-DoT-DoT-DoT and run around like headless chickens until Onyxia expires from exhaustion.
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That's exactly the reason; in reality, when this change is implemented, most of the end game contet will get rebalanced again, much like they did when they fixed the "unitended resisting" bug.

Although the 40-Warlock raids are an extreme example, there's definately good reason for the debuff limit.

[Quark]

Am I the only one who still thinks this is a dumb limit?

OK, so from being usually screwed we are now just occasionally screwed. That's progress.

But why have a debuff limit at all when there's no buff limit?
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There is a buff limit. I think Blizzard said it's 32 or something.

[TheLuminaire]

There is a buff limit.  I think Blizzard said it's 32 or something.
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Wow, is it really that huge? I think even in a raid setting, you'd have to work hard to make the cap. I've had a dozen or more before, but 32? :blink:

[Drasca]

though it affects everyone.  A party of five can easily overwrite debuffs on standard mobs
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5? More like 2 when a warlock's involved. With the right sequence of events and talent spec, a lock can fill up all 8 current debuff slots himself. Each lock gets 4 debuffs gross minimum (curse, corruption, immolate, drain life or soul drain). One more in affliction tree (siphon), and 3 in destruction (aftermath, iShadow bolt, pyroclasm), and their pets can either tainted blood or charm momentarily.

Even not considering talents, 5 locks can easily fill up all 16 debuff slots solo, and when thinking in 10, 15, 40 man raids with all those people... you still have to watch your debuffs.

While we've changed the debuff limit to 16, and made the game slightly easier, it still doesn't really affect raids much. 16 isn't enough for everyone to get sloppy on debuff slots, but it will stop some stepping on toes. 16 gives a small amount more room to keep from stepping on each other's toes, while still requiring prioritization of debuff slots.

Given that enemies die either in 20-30 seconds, 1-2 minutes, or 10-30 minutes depending on what scale enemy you're facing, infinite dot kiting is still impossible as they can't take full effect within the 20 second time frame. 40 man 1-2 minute MC trash mobs also cannot get sloppy on debuff slots, as 16 isn't enough to utilize all possible debuffs. So while the increase to 16 is nice, its not huge, but it does please locks a bit more. Less mana wasted refreshing curse of shadows/elements and rage for sunder.

Onyxia raids where all of them do Curse of Doom-DoT-DoT-DoT and run around like headless chickens until Onyxia expires from exhaustion.

That's what deep breath and whelplings are for.

[Lissa]

That's what deep breath ... are for.
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Deep Breath is a timed event. We've proven that time and again on the various Lurker/CA runs. You can clump up all you like, you won't get Deep Breathed unless the time limit is passed (not sure on exact time, but it's somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes). As such, getting through phase 2 without a Deep Breath is all about doing enough damage to her quickly enough, not being clumped up together.

[mjdoom]

Deep Breath is a timed event.  We've proven that time and again on the various Lurker/CA runs.  You can clump up all you like, you won't get Deep Breathed unless the time limit is passed (not sure on exact time, but it's somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes).  As such, getting through phase 2 without a Deep Breath is all about doing enough damage to her quickly enough, not being clumped up together.
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I think this is what Drasca is trying to say. You can't just DOT-DOT-DOT all day and kite because deep breath and the whelps will eat you before you do enough damage to take her down.

[MongoJerry]

Deep Breath is a timed event.  We've proven that time and again on the various Lurker/CA runs.  You can clump up all you like, you won't get Deep Breathed unless the time limit is passed (not sure on exact time, but it's somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes).  As such, getting through phase 2 without a Deep Breath is all about doing enough damage to her quickly enough, not being clumped up together.

Patently not true. We've had deep breaths happen early in Phase 2, and we've had deep breaths happen one right after the other four times in a row. It is most definitely not a timed event. Our theory that seems to work is that basically you don't want people to be in front of or under Onyxia. Basically, it looks like the algorithm says, "If I can kill X% of the raid with Deep Breath, do it!" If the raid stays on her flanks as she moves around the room, then she won't Deep Breath. Get in front of her or have too many right underneath her, and you're quite literally toast.

[Lissa]

Patently not true.  We've had deep breaths happen early in Phase 2, and we've had deep breaths happen one right after the other four times in a row.  It is most definitely not a timed event.  Our theory that seems to work is that basically you don't want people to be in front of or under Onyxia.  Basically, it looks like the algorithm says, "If I can kill X% of the raid with Deep Breath, do it!"  If the raid stays on her flanks as she moves around the room, then she won't Deep Breath.  Get in front of her or have too many right underneath her, and you're quite literally toast.
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We've never seen a deep breath occur unless the damage dropped off (usually about half the raid is dead due to whelps which hasn't occured since out second attempt). We have had people clumped in front of her, under her, and all over trying to keep the damage up. On our last 3 attempts, she has not loosed a single deep breath. If it was an issue with clumping, we should have seen DBs in the last three runs against her and we haven't (cause we have people chasing her all around the cave keeping damage up with a couple dedicated groups taking on the whelps, one on each side of the cave). And the last time she DBed on us, she had been in Phase 2 for close to 10 minutes. From everything we've seen and others have observed as well, DBs happen on a timer and not due to "clumping".

[kandrathe]

We've never seen a deep breath occur unless the damage dropped off (usually about half the raid is dead due to whelps which hasn't occured since out second attempt).  We have had people clumped in front of her, under her, and all over trying to keep the damage up.  On our last 3 attempts, she has not loosed a single deep breath.  If it was an issue with clumping, we should have seen DBs in the last three runs against her and we haven't (cause we have people chasing her all around the cave keeping damage up with a couple dedicated groups taking on the whelps, one on each side of the cave).  And the last time she DBed on us, she had been in Phase 2 for close to 10 minutes.  From everything we've seen and others have observed as well, DBs happen on a timer and not due to "clumping".
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I think you both might be right. I think there are triggers where the AI determines a DB is called for. I think we naturally tend to spread out, and I'm pretty keen to stay out from under her or from in front of her. Here's another opinion from another raiding guild;

The Deep Breath attack is a hot topic of discussion and seems to have changed in a recent patch. Some people will claim that positioning has nothing to do with it, or that debuffs and DPS is all that matters. I disagree and it's been my experience that deep breaths only occur when one of two mistakes are being made: 10+ people are clustered in one area, or DPS sucks and she is still in the air after about 4-5 minutes. We also started getting more deep breaths when we slacked on debuffs, so I always stress to keep 6+ debuffs on her at all times during this phase. The exact workings of deep breath will probably remain a mystery; different people will have different experiences and make different observations. But the core strategy to avoid it remains the same: spread out and get her on the ground as soon as possible.

[Ruvanal]

The Amazon Basin had a slightly different take on what is causing the Deep Breath. Basically the DB comes when the overall DPS on Onyxia drops below some threshold. When that happens is when she would do a DB on the group. This would fit in well with what Lissa listed and possibly with Mongo Jerry's case if that group had short lapse in the amount of damage being done at an early portion of that phase of the fight.

[Kevin]

The Amazon Basin had a slightly different take on what is causing the Deep Breath.  Basically the DB comes when the overall DPS on Onyxia drops below some threshold.  When that happens is when she would do a DB on the group.  This would fit in well with what Lissa listed and possibly with Mongo Jerry's case if that group had short lapse in the amount of damage being done at an early portion of that phase of the fight.
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This is my belief from observation as well. We've only gotten a Deep Breath hit when DPS has been low be it by not having DoT's delivering damage or too many people not able to fire on her. I think our last Deep Breath was when we were expecting a phase 2 to phase 3 transition and we cleared DoT's but people also stopped the damage output as well.

It fits with the "logic" of the attack. If you aren't getting hurt as bad you have time to "breath deeply" and let loose. If you are getting hurt a lot you won't be able to get that deep breath in.

Clumping my lead to this because if she shoots a fireball into a clump what do all those people do? Stop hurting her and bandage hence dropping the DPS. That is the big danger I've seen with clumps is that she lobs a fireball at the clump and lots of people get hurt.

[Rinnhart]

This is my belief from observation as well.  We've only gotten a Deep Breath hit when DPS has been low be it by not having DoT's delivering damage or too many people not able to fire on her.  I think our last Deep Breath was when we were expecting a phase 2 to phase 3 transition and we cleared DoT's but people also stopped the damage output as well.

It fits with the "logic" of the attack. If you aren't getting hurt as bad you have time to "breath deeply" and let loose.  If you are getting hurt a lot you won't be able to get that deep breath in.

Clumping my lead to this because if she shoots a fireball into a clump what do all those people do?  Stop hurting her and bandage hence dropping the DPS.  That is the big danger I've seen with clumps is that she lobs a fireball at the clump and lots of people get hurt.
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The best part about the whole "DB cause" debate is that it ALWAYS sparks up midfight.

"No! South! South! We're too close together up north!"
"I thought we decided that proximity didn't matter?"
"Whelps!"
"Mage down!"
"South! Move south!"
"No! Chase her! Keep up the damage!"
"GET AWAY FROM THE WHELPS, YOU IDIOT!"
"thanks for the fast re-"
"Mage down!"
DEEP BREATH
Paladins:"Haha! We're alive! Wooh-"
DEEP BREATH

[Rinnhart]

I suspect the devs were worried about kiting on a raid scale. I think the devs had nightmares of 40-warlock Onyxia raids where all of them do Curse of Doom-DoT-DoT-DoT and run around like headless chickens until Onyxia expires from exhaustion.
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Fantastic mental image.

[Lissa]

I suspect the devs were worried about kiting on a raid scale. I think the devs had nightmares of 40-warlock Onyxia raids where all of them do Curse of Doom-DoT-DoT-DoT and run around like headless chickens until Onyxia expires from exhaustion.
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If it were possible, with her present health, it would be around a 5 to 6 minute fight.

128k from CoDs barring no resists
58k from Corruptions every minute
40k from Life Siphons every minute

226k every minute from no resists and she has around 900k to 1 Million Health depending (slightly more, slightly less).

[Kevin]

If it were possible, with her present health, it would be around a 5 to 6 minute fight.

128k from CoDs barring no resists
58k from Corruptions every minute
40k from Life Siphons every minute

226k every minute from no resists and she has around 900k to 1 Million Health depending (slightly more, slightly less).
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And with 40 locks you could have imps whipping fireballs at her (I don't think she is fire immune, if she is then 24 succubus, keeping 2 imps per group in case one gets munched, are still going to help add some damage) and some of the locks could be slinging shadow bolts at her in the middle of the kiting as well, you wouldn't all be injured and needing to heal yourselves. That many locks would make the whelps pretty trivial if they showed up as well. Everyone would be soulstoned so everyone could die once as well and come right back up.