Healing in Raids

[Kevin]

The Where do you find "The Love"? started me off on a healing in a raid tangent. Now that any healer, even those who don't like add-ons and wouldn't use CTRaid, will have the ability to see the health of the whole raid it could be helpful to have some strats/discussion on healing in raids.

I did my first raid healing with Taranna (L58 at the time, L59 now) my druid in UBRS last night. I was in the room with Treesh (Aleri L60 priest) and I could talk with her about where heals were going quite easily but soulstealer (L60 druid) only had raid chat to see what was going. I did a lot of cross group healing. I'm wondering if I stepped on soulstealers toes, or if I was even doing the right thing.

So how much cross healing should you do? Should you only HoT people in other groups and use emergency heals when needed? How much shielding should a priest do to others if there are other priests around? Should I really only try to heal my group (assuming one healer per group) and only emergency heal other groups? Does it make more sense to try and have a master healer who tries to heal everyone and the other healers fill the gaps?

I'm looking at basic strategies. I know each group will be different and if you discuss with the other healers it shouldn't matter too much, but what about in general?

[Skandranon]

I did my first raid healing with Taranna (L58 at the time, L59 now) my druid in UBRS last night.  I was in the room with Treesh (Aleri L60 priest) and I could talk with her about where heals were going quite easily but soulstealer (L60 druid) only had raid chat to see what was going.  I did a lot of cross group healing.  I'm wondering if I stepped on soulstealers toes, or if I was even doing the right thing.
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I've never played a primary healer, only a backup healer. That said, my experiences in Blackwing Lair over the past two days have taught me one lesson about healing in a raid situation: any healer in the raid should be ready to heal any player in the raid at any time. With that in mind: if you have the mana and time and aren't neglecting a player in your group, I say cross heal as much as you like. Stepping on people's toes? Maybe. But I prefer that over someone getting dead at an inopportune time.

[Treesh]

I asked similar questions the first time I went on a raid. It was a sorta pickup/sorta lurker & associates raid. The pickup priest was shielding just about everyone (regardless of groupings) the second they took any damage regardless of class. So I asked if I was supposed to be healing all the raid or just mainly my own group. I was told to do mainly my own group except in emergencies and boss fights so that's what I did. But the more raids I went on, the less healing I was allowed to do because everyone else was healing my group. I don't know if that was because no one trusted my healing or if that's just normal raid procedure. I still don't. The one thing I will not do is shield someone in another group if there is a priest in that group. Because of the soul sickness and not knowing if the priest who cast it has the talent points placed to reduce the length of time for soul sickness, it can really throw people off if they expect to be able to shield but can't because someone else put up a shield. I do not mind HoTs being thrown out all over because it's really not a mana sucker so if that's the cause of where the overhealing is coming from, no big deal. Now, when the shields go down on mages because of damage and the mages are still being hit hard, quick real heals from any and all healers is fine too. Sometimes they just are taking so much damage that the quickest heals just can't keep up and you don't have time to do the longer, stronger heals so cross-healing on those cases I don't mind either. The ones I mind are when the person in my group is at 65-75% health, not dropping all that quickly either, and someone else is casting flash heals on them just a fraction of a second before mine lands and I'm not having multiple people in my group getting hurt so I am focused on healing the one person in my group taking damage. I understand those who don't have the main tank in their group getting bored in some cases because they don't have anyone in their group getting hurt at the same time so the only person who needs healing is the main tank. It can get boring. I've been in the group without the main tank. I still don't unnecessarily heal the main tank in that case unless the tank really starts to get hurt quickly.

Again, I have no idea if what I'm doing is right or wrong and no one ever actually tells me. Since I have to ninja-heal my own group so frequently lately just to be able to do something, it's become more of a contest just to see if I can actually get in heals before a bored priest does it for me so lots of mana is wasted or else I'm bored to tears and stop caring about healing at all.

[oldmandennis]

The only time cross healing would be a problem is if you go OOM or otherwise neglect who you are supposed to be healing.

UBRS is cake with any reasonably balanced group of 15 nonknuckleheads. There doesn't need to be anything complicated about it, other then you might need some crossheals on the Main Tank at Drac.

MC/BWL/Ony is a whole other game. There groups and stratagies should be moved and changed from encounter to encounter. Getting the healing right is a MAJOR part of sucess there, and needs to be discussed indepth before (and during) each fight until it is in farm mode.

And when in doubt, let the rogue die first :P

[Kevin]

I've never played a primary healer, only a backup healer.  That said, my experiences in Blackwing Lair over the past two days have taught me one lesson about healing in a raid situation: any healer in the raid should be ready to heal any player in the raid at any time.  With that in mind: if you have the mana and time and aren't neglecting a player in your group, I say cross heal as much as you like.  Stepping on people's toes?  Maybe.  But I prefer that over someone getting dead at an inopportune time.
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Point taken, but without running a mod that stops inbound heals on a target that has already been healed you could be looking at wasting chunks of mana. I don't run a mod that stops my heal for me, I'd rather not do that as well.

So are using HoT's and flash heals cross group the better idea and only slapping an healing touch/greater heal if having 2 or 3 land in very close succession isn't going to waste someones mana regerdless of what they may have inbound.

As I mentioned in the other thread and I should have copied over here, I was quite happy when I had 2 people hurt bad in my group and a heal landed on one of them while I was healing the other.

Are there basic strats of, the primay group healer is hitting a squishy first first if 2 or more in that group are hurt so other healers hit the tanks in that group first if you crsoss heal that people have found work better? Obviously with only one priest and 2 druids the priest throwing a bubble up anywhere for an breather is a good thing.

What are ways to not waste each others mana if there is a lot of cross healing going on? I think that is when cross healing is going to frustrate someone the most, when they lose mana because of it. That is also when it is most harmful to the group since you doubled or tripled or whatever the mana cost of the health that someone just got back.

Are there pick-up group conventions for raid healing?

I'm still working on my theorycraft of some ways to set up raid healing but I'm open for ideas, experiences, etc.

[Kevin]

The only time cross healing would be a problem is if you go OOM or otherwise neglect who you are supposed to be healing.
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No there is a person behind the interface for the other healers in a raid. As you stated one preson can pretty much heal all of UBRS with the exception of a few fights or if you are getting used to the new sheep bug and so you lose a lot of CC. But I want everyone to have fun. I don't want to heal someone else's group simply because I'm quicker that night than they were and it doesn't really matter because no one is going OOM or dying.

As I mention in another post I just made cross healing can lead to mana inefficiency for people too. This may or may not be an issue depending on where you are.

I'm hoping to be healing in Onyxia tonight as part of the Lurkers/CA attempt on her take 3. We've been short healers but we got 4 more blooded over the last couple of days. I expect there to be strat discussions about the healing there.

[Bun-Bun]

Again, I have no idea if what I'm doing is right or wrong and no one ever actually tells me.  Since I have to ninja-heal my own group so frequently lately just to be able to do something, it's become more of a contest just to see if I can actually get in heals before a bored priest does it for me so lots of mana is wasted or else I'm bored to tears and stop caring about healing at all.
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I resemble this remark! Most times Hykim has tried to do a Healing Touch in a raid it wound up being a total waste as another group's priest panics and Flash heals my target. After a few attempts to heal in a reasonable and economical manner, I usually retreat into apathy, tossing a few HoTs around unless things get dire.

The only time I can get Hykim to be useful is in extreme boss fights and when the raid contains AoEing mages and warlocks. I now know to keep a very close watch on those fragile fiends.

[oldmandennis]

No there is a person behind the interface for the other healers in a raid.

Well, GG, if you know the answers, why did you ask the question?

I'm hoping to be healing in Onyxia tonight as part of the Lurkers/CA attempt on her take 3.  We've been short healers but we got 4 more blooded over the last couple of days.  I expect there to be strat discussions about the healing there.
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Well, I recommend CTRA for any 40 man raid. It has the "overheal" protection built in, which will be valuable in phase 2 (cross healing victems of a fireball) and phase 3 (scramble to heal tank after a fear).

[Kevin]

Another thought.

I had party frames turned off (I still have CTRaid installed and that option is turned on) so even with the default raid UI all the bars were the same. So when I boil it down it means that all of them need my healing.

Maybe I should turn the party frame back on as a healer so that I do pay more attention to that group and not be a hyper healer as much. :) Unless everyone agrees that hyper healer is the way to go. :)

I know my Regrowth is going to look like a flash heal and it adds the HoT on the end. If those annoy people and aren't needed maybe I should stay away from them.

Of course those might be the heal of choice cross group since even if a greater/top rank healing touch is about to land, on most classes, unless it crits, it isn't going to fully heal them.

Some other issues with cross heals throwing off timing is that I, and I think most healers, keep several ranks of heals on the bar to cover the right situations. If my tank only needs a -2 rank healing touch and a flash heal lands from somewhere that healing touch becomes too big and if I'm over 2 seconds into the cast even breaking it has wasted time.

And sure smaller raids it probably doesn't matter. But I don't see the problem with practicing good efficient methods of healing, just like people still usually use good aggro methods in those raids too, even if you don't need to. Though an occasional crazy all out fest can be fun if that is what everyone expects.

So yeah, I want to be the best healer I can I don't want to ruin other healers fun just because I'm .2 seconds faster on cast that you have a 5 second window for it to land it. Or because they have a different heal methodology that works just as well as mine does.

I also would hope you don't have to talk about it before every group. There are plenty of basic things that compentent players never need to discuss I don't see why this should be any different but it has been for me.

[Treesh]

extreme boss fights and when the raid contains AoEing mages and warlocks. I now know to keep a very close watch on those fragile fiends.
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And in those cases where the damage is flying in fast and heavy, I am so glad for people cross-healing. There was one raid I was on where one mage got hate from just about everything and no one could pull it off the mage and shield was down. It took all three healers healing to keep that mage alive. I do wish holy nova would heal the raid groups and not just my party. Then I wouldn't have had to ask to put two mages, a warlock and a hard shell in my group just so my AoE heals would be much more effective. ;) Holy nova really is great in those AoE situations. Pre-shield your AoErs, when the shield is burned through, fire off the holy nova. With enough AoErs around, that holy nova is enough after the shields have been burned through to help kill whatever is eating the squishies and heal them up at the same time. And it's instant so it gives more time to get some real heals on them if the critters aren't dead yet.

Side note: To make the holy tree more attractive for healers, make holy nova raid group heals instead of just party heals (same radius) or make holy fire have a chance to heal your group within a certain radius when it crits. I could be a bit biased on that though and I have no idea how unbalancing either would be. ;) :D

[Tuftears]

For me, I've found the 'love' in being a multi-faceted character with the druid.

With UBRS, most of the healing is, as previously mentioned, easily covered by one or two people using CTRA - so I don my feral gear and go cat for extra damage, popping out to cover a spot heal here and there, or maybe innervate the priest. (I have 2.5 sets of gear - one full healer, one feral with some cat/bear switches) I may have 2.7k mana unbuffed, but that's 3.3k with a mage's AI buff which is rarely lacking in a raid, and that's enough to let me pull some decent healing when I need to shift out.

When you've got massive overhealing, that's a sure sign you need to give some of your healers a vacation. Let them play kitties, if they're druids, or go shadowform, if they're priests. Or a bear can lend some much-needed control in a chaotic situation, with bash and frenzied regeneration to provide some self-healing.

Standard raid calls for organizing things so that the healing burden will be evenly divided between groups, so you shouldn't need everyone to have CTRA, but it is handy for when someone is having real problems in another party. My rule of thumb is, don't heal someone else's party unless it becomes apparent they're having a problem keeping up.

[Kevin]

Well, GG, if you know the answers, why did you ask the question? 
Well, I recommend CTRA for any 40 man raid.  It has the "overheal" protection built in, which will be valuable in phase 2 (cross healing victems of a fireball) and phase 3 (scramble to heal tank after a fear).
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One. You were correct, that was one of the real problems with cross healing, but it wasn't the only one like you stated. I didn't say I had the answers, but your blanket statement annoyed me and it felt like you were going in a direction of "the end goal is all that matters no matter how we get there" My apologies if that was not the case. There are lots of ways to get to goals and lots of ways people have fun with this game and lots of those can work together. Yes, I want to be efficient, yes, I dont want to wipe, but if my healing is messing up someones fun or theirs mine then that is not a good thing. If you don't need me there and aren't going to let me do what my class can do, why did you invite me? We've already had 3 other healers come back and say that they have had problems with cross healing annoying them. I'm looking for solutions to that.

I asked the general question to get feed back from people who have done raid healing a lot as to what they think the good general startegies are for it. I'm not attacking you, I appreciate your input and I'm just bringing up counterpoints to it to either clarify what you said or simply because I disagree with it at this time. Doesn't mean I will disagree with it later. Again my apologies if I came off differently.

Two. As for CTRA I have it, the over heal protection is off because I would like to believe that people can work together and that you shouldn't need it. I am, however, debating turning it on if I'm healing in there tonight and not playing my warrior. If that is the only way the healers feel we can avoid the issues, and they need to be avoided, I will go along with that. I will also come back here and post to see if we can get away from dependence on a mod. You might not be able to. I also know some of how we have been healing it and I expect to have more disucssion before hand so all the healers know what to do and trust the other healers to do their jobs so that you generally won't need the over heal protection. I like to play the game at the cost of some efficiency not have a mod play it for me. I understand if this means certian players don't want me along and as I said if the others involved feel we need it, I'll do it.

[oldmandennis]

<regarding 40 man raids> I also would hope you don't have to talk about it before every group.&nbsp; There are plenty of basic things that compentent players never need to discuss I don't see why this should be any different but it has been for me.
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Well, not before every trash mob. But the first time you see each trash pull you should, because unless you are hard core it's probably somebodys first time. And definatly before every boss fight.

Edit: Replies are coming in fast and furious now

Ok, GG how about this: Nobody I play with is offended by cross healing. I like it, it lets me get back to my windfury zerg, frostshock spamming roots. :)

Most of my comments are directed at the 40man game, GG. Not that I'm uberleet or anything, but I have been hitting MC fairly regularly for the past couple of months. I personally don't have much use for Strath or Scholo, and think UBRS is boring cake. So when you say raid, that's what I comment on.

I agree in UBRS, with 3-5 healers you could either work out a system or just use voice chat as you go along to avoid overheals. For Ony, with 10-15 healers (counting Pallys), phase 2 and 3 are too chaotic for a superdiciplined healing rotation that avoids overheals through tatical brilliance. Without CTRA somebody will overheal. Healer mana often determines how that fight will go. The choice is yours. There are also places in MC where CTRA can be the difference between life and death.

[Tal]

My preference would be for the healers to handle their own groups and only heal a group without a healer and during boss encounters like the General.

[TheDragoon]

The way that I've generally healed is to mostly focus on my own group when things are going smoothly with two expections: the main tank and AoE'ers. These are the guys that tend to use the most healing and can go down the quickest without it, so I watch them and throw heals on them regardless of whether they're in my group or not.

Usually, the healer in the main tank's group has a pretty good handle on things so I mostly leave it alone (unless I'm REALLY bored) and just throw a renew on every now and then or at the start of a battle.

As for AoE'ers, I primarily look out for the ones in my party but will occasionally throw a heal to a different one if it has aggro. I've had too many experiences where my healing was insufficient to keep up with damage dealt to an AoE character to be willing to let another priest go through that, if I can help it.

As for other characters, I usually leave them alone, though I'll occasionally throw on a renew if someone is starting to draw aggro or a flash heal if they've pulled everything off of the main tank. I usually don't pay that close of attention to Rogues, Hunters, and the like from other parties and, hence, pay closer attention to those in my party.

[Bolty]

Since I have to ninja-heal my own group so frequently lately just to be able to do something, it's become more of a contest just to see if I can actually get in heals before a bored priest does it for me so lots of mana is wasted or else I'm bored to tears and stop caring about healing at all.[right][snapback]83476[/snapback][/right]

And I can't help but wonder if this is a side effect of CombatStats. Good ol' ranking the healers based on amount of health healed, and people actually thinking that matters for something. Be #1 on the healing chart by healing the whole raid! Who cares if it's mana inefficient and may lead to a wipe?

I doubt this applies to Lurker groups, but one never knows. I would suspect, however, that if this occurs in pubbie groups it's because the healer(s) want to top the healing charts and think of themselves as the "best" healer in the group. You would be SHOCKED to hear of how some players think that their CombatStats directly shows that they are better or worse than other players. I play a lot of pubbie groups because I find them interesting in a masochistic kind of way, and I've seen it quite a bit.

Running the Scarlet Monastery last weekend with my level 40 Frost Mage, we were happily slamming things about with a group of 2 Druids and 2 Hunters. One of them put up a CombatStats report in partychat that showed I was the runaway leader in damage dealt (duh, I'm a Mage, pure DPS Monkey), and one of the Hunters got really, really mad about it - and a mini-fight broke out where he was accusing me of "running up my score" by not bothering to sheep anything.

This was extremely hilarious on my end because I gave up sheeping a while back after my first TWELVE attempts in fights to remove adds via sheep were all broken by the other players (common in pick-up groups). But the point was that this Hunter's ego was actually hurt because he wasn't #1 in CombatStats. Some people in pickup groups take that VERY seriously!

For Lurker groups, it was probably the situation that there were simply more healers than were necessary, so the healers get bored, so they wind up healing outside their group just to have something to do. When this situation is encountered, some communication should be given and some of the healers can turn over to DPS mode. When you think about it, it's also just as inefficient to have extra healers around doing nothing as it is to overheal/doubleheal party members. Any Priests that are shadow-speced and Druids can then turn into damage dealers and help drive through the content faster - if Things Go Wrong™, they can always switch out of damage dealing mid-fight and step up for some healing love.

In Lurker groups, I would assume that people would know better than to use CombatStats to evaluate the "effectiveness" of healers, and base it more on the value added to the party - do the heals come when they're actually needed? Does the healer keep the party alive and get them out of nasty jams? Does the healer do his/her best to not become a liability to the party by staying low in the aggro list? Etc.

-Bolty

[Tal]

And I can't help but wonder if this is a side effect of CombatStats.&nbsp; Good ol' ranking the healers based on amount of health healed, and people actually thinking that matters for something.&nbsp; Be #1 on the healing chart by healing the whole raid!&nbsp; Who cares if it's mana inefficient and may lead to a wipe?
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I think some of the aggro problems we've had on raids recently might be at least partially linked to the fact that Combatstats is running and there is a jovial competition amongst everyone to see who can be on top of the combat heap. Hey - I won't lie - I like seeing Shalandrax on the list. Though she's usually hovering around 5-8th. ;) But its become increasingly frustrating to be a tank in some raids lately. See a squishy get aggro run over, taunt, sunder, demo AND shield bash only to see the mob turn and smack the squishy some more.

[mjdoom]

The way that I've generally healed is to mostly focus on my own group when things are going smoothly with two expections: the main tank and AoE'ers.&nbsp; These are the guys that tend to use the most healing and can go down the quickest without it, so I watch them and throw heals on them regardless of whether they're in my group or not.&nbsp;
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This is very close to what I do although I mostly only watch my own group and the MT (which I have a /target <MT> macro always up to help with). Even aoers out of my group don't get too much help as I assume that the healer in that group can handle it. When it comes to cross-healing I generally don't do it much and it doesn't bother me much if others do it to me.

If I am in a situation where my healing isn't as important (easy raid; lots of healers) I just do other important things like fire off a few nukes to kill mobs faster (but always make sure I have mana if an emergency heal is necessary) or /dance with Onyxia during phase one. In large raids that are not highly regimented I usually hang back and let all of the zealous healers burn through their mana and just watch to dispel things. This means that I will have some more in the tank later on if it is necessary. I'll just occasionally throw heals at the MT and keep an eye on my party.

As for Bolty's comments; these methods will never put you at the top of CombatStats and I don't care. They also decrease your chances of pulling aggro (can be very deadly in a raid environment) and allow you to be ready to help if another healer goes down.

- mjdoom

[Watto44]

Weeeeeee! CombatStats! Huzzah!

I have to agree. CombatStats is good for a giggle and little else. I've had a couple of interesting encounters with it lately. (All playing as my druid, if that helps to set the scene.) The first one was in a ten man dead strat raid. One of our rogues - just about the best rogue I've ever grouped with - was coming third on the list. Now this seemed silly to me, because he was kicking and gouging and doing whatever it is that rogues do in instances. He was playing his part in the group to perfection: never drawing agro of the main tank, but grabbing it right quick of our squishies. This, for me, was certainly a showcase for why combatstats is a gimic and little else in these sort of raids.

The second was in one of those Worst-Raids-Ever ™. A ten man run through BRD to get attuned for MC. This run took hours for some reason. We had warlocks pulling and trying to tank, rogues who were wandering around with their thumbs up their bu.....etc. The interesting thing was that a hunter got so annoyed with the constant combatstats spam he quick the group.

Finally, I had a truly bizzare encounter with combat stats where I somehow managed to hit second place on the dps list in a ten man group! Woot! Rofl. I have no idea how this happened, but the group was solid and I was only back-up healing. I was throwing the odd moonfire/starfire/wrath around but doing very little else damage wise, mostly just pushing buttons while I waited for someone to get hurt. B) This experience showed me that combatstats is not to be trusted, and is certainly not a reflection of you usefulness to the group.

Unfortunately, as Bolty and mjdoom have mentioned, there are people for whome combatstats is canonical. Top the list = best in game. In my experience, these are the same people who think a tank is "crap" because they can't pull ridiculous amounts agro off them, who think healers do nothing, and who think they can solo instance elites. (I don't want to sound rude or arrogent, but as a healer I take great pleasure in disabusing them of the last. :D )

As for healing in 10 and 15 person raids: I say follow your nose. You know who's important to a particular pull and can direct your energy in their direction. For anything bigger, stick with the strategy and keep one eye on the main tank(s). I've been wracking my brain about a way to avoid over healing all day, and I honestly cannot think of a good, workable system to avoid it. The joy of 10 and 15 person raids is that over healing is rarely an issue.

Just my two cents. :blush:

[Kevin]

Ok, GG how about this: Nobody I play with is offended by cross healing.&nbsp; I like it, it lets me get back to my windfury zerg, frostshock spamming roots. :)

Most of my comments are directed at the 40man game, GG.&nbsp; Not that I'm uberleet or anything, but I have been hitting MC fairly regularly for the past couple of months.&nbsp; I personally don't have much use for Strath or Scholo, and think UBRS is boring cake.&nbsp; So when you say raid, that's what I comment on.

I agree in UBRS, with 3-5 healers you could either work out a system or just use voice chat as you go along to avoid overheals.&nbsp; For Ony, with 10-15 healers (counting Pallys), phase 2 and 3 are too chaotic for a superdiciplined healing rotation that avoids overheals through tatical brilliance.&nbsp; Without CTRA somebody will overheal.&nbsp; Healer mana often determines how that fight will go.&nbsp; The choice is yours.&nbsp; There are also places in MC where CTRA can be the difference between life and death.
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Works for me. My apologies again for my misinterpretation. Since I just turned 59 with her so raids are still UBRS or loot runs in most cases. Heck it's the same with my 60 warrior for raids as well and he's been there for awhile.

I did turn on over heal protection last night. It works for when you are focus healing one target. However it doesn't work at all for how I usually heal.

I don't select the target then case the spell. I keep the primary mob targeted (or have nothing targeted) and then hit the number for the heal I want and click the portrait/CT Raid/Default UI bar. Overheal protection requires you to have the target selected when you heal them. I'm more comfortable with select spell then select target. Of course I wish I could get a macro that would work this way for doing a rez notification or an innervate notification, but since you never select a target the way I'm healing it doesn't.

And yeah I do see the value in overheal protection, but I'm still a stubborn little stickler. :)