A Study Of N00bs

[Quark]

"the mage dies again"... and you're blaming the druid for having a timer on his rez? that's idiotic... tell that mage to learn how to manage aggro... also 6 dogs... you should only be fighting 3 at a time... not sure how you can die to that...

3 dogs alone, then 6 dogs all linked in my experience. And how is a mage gonna "manage aggro" versus 6? If all non-healers manage to select another target to beat on, that's still 3 on the mage. If a Mage goes out to kill things with AoE, nothing is gonna take aggro from him. It might not come to him for a second or two depending on how you pull, but pretty much anything but a Rogue's target will end up on him. Those dogs hurt too.

Besides, are you telling me every fight you ever participate in goes perfect? Things go wrong, and when things go wrong, you want an untimered rez.

or because he couldn't use a paladin's bubble... wouldn't that have saved the day too? (just trying to point out that you are misplacing the blame)

A Paladin would have completely changed the dynamic of the group the rest of the way. The only difference between these two groups was Druid versus Priest, and the only effected outcome was that there was a dead person that couldn't be ressurected.

you should be able to do a tribute run with any of the groups you mentioned... lack of AoE isn't a big deal in DM... hurricane/hunter's AoE will do just fine for the scorpids/plants (and you don't need to aoe the dogs)... druids can hibernate a dog... druids can stealth to that second key (i always did the "kill first guard and re-enter the instance" trick -- apparently they are fixing that?)... and as horde, we usually had a shaman solo cho'rush (obviously different for the alliance)... but horde doesn't have the option of dropping the warrior...
if you're dead set on there being only one way to do DM, don't you wonder how warlocks ever get stuff from there?

I'm not dead set on anything. Ask mjdoom how dead set I am on trying to only do instances with "optimal" groups. I'm showing the consequences of what happens when you don't go optimal - specifically with druid versus priest.

Why don't we take a different tact and get off of DM completely? Let's talk about druid vs priest in Scholo/Strath :P

priests are rare enough that you won't be able to play every instance with one...

They're common enough that I've only ever 5manned with a druid as main healer 5 times counting level 40+ instances. I want there to be more druids, I'm tired of seeing druid loot get DE'd while people get stuck with no good loot an entire run. I'm tired of not being able to get Druids for UBRS with the one place their Hibernate shines, simply because Druids don't exist.

I want to see more of what a druid can do, but in the rare cases I'm playing with one I only see where a priest beats them out.

[fractaled]

3 dogs alone, then 6 dogs all linked in my experience.  And how is a mage gonna "manage aggro" versus 6?  If all non-healers manage to select another target to beat on, that's still 3 on the mage.  If a Mage goes out to kill things with AoE, nothing is gonna take aggro from him.  It might not come to him for a second or two depending on how you pull, but pretty much anything but a Rogue's target will end up on him.  Those dogs hurt too.

the only time i recall the mage using AoE on the dogs is when we had a priest along... if we didn't have a priest we switched to a different, more workable, tactic, namely: 6 dogs... one polyed, one hibernated, one freeze trapped... you can repoly & rehibernate... so you should 3 at a time, at most 4 if you freeze trap one for some reason... that encounter is not a hard one... again "if a mage goes out to kill things with AoE" - that is your problem, not the druid... if you don't see that, there's no point to this sub-thread...

Besides, are you telling me every fight you ever participate in goes perfect?  Things go wrong, and when things go wrong, you want an untimered rez.

i already said you have to have a rezer... a druid is not a rezer... group makeup isn't that tricky, you require tank, healer, and rezer... if you skimp on the rezer (by only having a druid), then you need to adjust... your druid group, while not optimal, is more than adequate for a DM tribute run... also note that a priest is not required for an optimal group... i would say druid, shaman, warrior, mage, X is ONE optimal group...

A Paladin would have completely changed the dynamic of the group the rest of the way.  The only difference between these two groups was Druid versus Priest, and the only effected outcome was that there was a dead person that couldn't be ressurected.

you missed my point... you were in a group that didn't have a rezer (only an emergency rezer)... your group played like you had a rezer in it... things didn't work out... you have to adjust your play to the composition of your group... if you don't have a rezer, you CAN'T play each battle like a shoot-out in quake...

I want to see more of what a druid can do, but in the rare cases I'm playing with one I only see where a priest beats them out.
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yeah, you ignored everything else i said that druids can do in DM... a druid's strength is flexibility... if you're going to only compare with priests as "primary healers" in otherwise rezerless groups, then yeah, they're not going to compare favorably because you will have that odd time where there are two deaths in 30 minutes...

[oldmandennis]

3 dogs alone, then 6 dogs all linked in my experience. 

I don't think they are linked, but it's a tough enough pull they may as well be.

But going back to your original post, why on earth do you consider a hunter NECESSARY for a tribute run? Sub a pally (or better yet a shammy ;) ) for him, and have him take the observer. Piece o cake.

And how is a mage gonna "manage aggro" versus 6?  If all non-healers manage to select another target to beat on, that's still 3 on the mage.

Like fractaled said, the encounter is not that hard. Hibernate one, sheep one, warrior should be able to lock one down, the rogue should be able to lock one down. If you let the Warrior and Rogue go at it a few tics, the druid should be able to keep the mage up vs two dogs. Hell, your hunter could even try soothing one (not sure if that would work).

I want there to be more druids.  I'm tired of not being able to get Druids for UBRS with the one place their Hibernate shines, simply because Druids don't exist.

Like I said, in my opinion, I don't think people are not playing druids for the res reason. I don't think people are not taking them in groups for that reason either, not when pally/shammy are so common.

In my opinion, the problem is that there are 3 hybrid classes, and two have a rep for being "overpowered". The class is a little awkward, probably causing a lot of people to get tired of it. People know that 40 man (and most 5 man) you are a healbot. Most people who want to be a healbot already rolled priest.

[Mavfin]

[snip]
Also, by going with only druids you lose potential CC utility in shackle and MC. The usefulness of shackle in Scholomance is not to be underestimated and heaven help any team that tries to 5-man that place with a druid in place of a priest. Sure, a druid can put a beast to sleep, tell me how often that is useful...

[snip]
- mjdoom
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[/quote]


Hmm, first half of UBRS, sleeping dragons? Maraudon beasts? Hmm, can you sleep the basilisk patrols in ZF? Dogs in BRD? My guild has been learning a LOT about CC lately, now that we finally have mages and druids (and a priest over 50 finally) old enouch to do some of the late-game instances. Of course, you can also sheep some beasts, too. Group in Maraudon was War/Hunter/Mage/two druids, one heavy feral/balance, other rest-spec. Lots of sleep and sheep used for CC. Until they got themselves in sync, we even had some sleeping sheep! :lol:

Yes, we ran into the rez issue w/druids. It's part of the game balance. And yes, running scholo or UD strat w/o a priest is different than running hu strat w/o one because of not having shackle. But it can be done. Just a little harder.

And, you don't *have* to have ideal groups. They're nice, but I've played with many that were not. Quality play wins out, usually. As far as loot because of rez issues, two things come to mind. Master loot on the boss gets around this, and you can roll on stuff while dead, just not released. I received my Valor from the Baron while dead with Master loot. I've rolled on and gotten other things while dead and not released. I don't release anymore on death in instances or other group situations with a rezzer of any kind until and unless it's clear we've wiped.

On another note, it's sad that it is becoming standard anymore to run Master Loot at the ends of instances, because of ninja looters who 'misunderstand' what they can and can't roll on. Also becoming standard in UBRS on the Beast, because too many rogues see a dagger and roll on it, when it clearly says 'skinner' DOH! (Other classes who use daggers sometimes will do it, but they're not as common as every 'phat lewt' rogue who rolls on anything they can justify)

(My pet peeve on the current state of WoW is not bugs, it's not balance, it's dishonest people)

[Treesh]

Hmm, can you sleep the basilisk patrols in ZF? Dogs in BRD? 
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Yes to the basilisks (iirc). Definite no on the "dogs" in BRD. The dogs in there are classified as demons, not beasts.

[Skandranon]

"the mage dies again"... and you're blaming the druid for having a timer on his rez? that's idiotic... tell that mage to learn how to manage aggro... also 6 dogs... you should only be fighting 3 at a time... not sure how you can die to that...[right][snapback]82133[/snapback][/right]

Fractaled, shut up. It's an AoE pull. There's no way to manage aggro on an AoE pull - I'll get them all eventually. And they're linked. I've been on upwards of thirty tribute runs and they've never been split. Ignorance is bad enough, but being arrogantly ignorant is something else entirely.

[oldmandennis]

Whoa there... Shut up is hardly a good way to have a conversation. Why not engage the substance of our comments that the pull can be substantially reduced by CC (which the Druid can be a part of).

I've done tribute runs without a mage, that pull is just NOT that hard. It IS possible to keep most of the mobs off the mage, just don't pull with a flamestrike.

[mjdoom]

And, you don't *have* to have ideal groups.  They're nice, but I've played with many that were not.
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I went back and reread my post to be sure and in no way did I say that things couldn't be done with less than ideal groups. I have run many instances with less than ideal groups and had varying levels of success in those runs. However, even though these things can be done doesn't mean I want to do them all that often. It can be very frustrating to do a large part of an instance and then fail due more to group composition than player skill. Of course it can feel good to overcome those odds; but I'm not going to consistently set myself up in situations that are begging for failure if not everything is perfectly executed.

Originally Quark had mentioned a situation with a group with only a druid as a rezzer (and this had led to issues) and very quickly this thread turned it into "duh; don't bring only a druid for rez duty." Everyone who has made a comment along those lines is already assuming a second class slot (pally/shaman) based on your choice of main healer (druid vs. priest). Sure this may not be workind toward the ideal group, but it is suggesting group compositions solely based on one group member. If you want to intentionally gimp yourself (or simply have no option due to the resources available) that is perfectly fine. I have done it personally many times and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. But I still stand by my statement that there are certain things that I don't have an inclination try without a priest as main healer unless I was feeling particularly sadistic. Contrasted to that I don't think there are many situations where you would say I would much prefer a druid healer or wouldn't try it without a druid as main healer.

- mjdoom

Edit: silly quote tags

[Skandranon]

Whoa there...  Shut up is hardly a good way to have a conversation.
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When his first comment is telling me (yes, I'm the mage) that I have no idea how to manage aggro, you better believe that I'll take offense. Quite frankly, I have no need for him to tell me how to do my job.

And druid healing is more than sufficient, with the proper tactics, to AoE that pull. The only thing is that healers, upon first encountering that pull, tend to be taken by surprise regarding the amount of sheer healing required, and so I die. Quark's criticism is that druids' mechanism for fixing things that go wrong only works once every 30 minutes.

[Drasca]

Simply bringing a druid as your healer almost forces the group to have a pally and two aoers

You call this limiting?

Druid, Tank, Rezzer, something something. Hmm. All aoe classes have some form of CC, even weak hunter aoe has the fantastic Freeze trap. I don't think you're limited. Do you want space for four rogues or something?

lose potential CC utility in shackle and MC

Shackle's never really required, though it does make a few encounters more painful. MC... is dangerous. Fun, and useful but dangerous. Its not actively used if there are too many enemies or there's a safer route that's just as fast.

Beast sleep is very useful. LBRS spiders, DM west boss hunter's bear pet that charge stuns & north against dogs, UBRS against dragonkin. Inner mara... there's plenty of situations to use sleep.

I'm glad lurkers have called bull on class limitations. Don't need ideal, and the game is far easier than it looks. The varied skillpool available greatly makes up for any limitations and enchances class strengths.

The people that are completely biased against classes either don't know their class strengths. As demonstrated by Hilary, Druids can be for more ideal than priests for encounters.

I want to see more of what a druid can do, but in the rare cases I'm playing with one I only see where a priest beats them out.

How often have you played with druids? I've done so on a consistent basis and watched them shine, like taking down last elite or two through bearform / healing / moonfire combo while the rest of the party

It's an AoE pull. There's no way to manage aggro on an AoE pull

Bit of nitpick.

While I agree that its an aoe pull, I disagree on that aggro cannot be managed. Aggro can be prebuffed and should be spread around as much as possible for first half of a aoe pull. That buys just enough time to finish them without dying.

Also, as Artega already mentioned, Warrior retaliate just rocks too. There's no reason not to use it.

[Skandranon]

While I agree that its an aoe pull, I disagree on that aggro cannot be managed.  Aggro can be prebuffed and should be spread around as much as possible for first half of a aoe pull. That buys just enough time to finish them without dying.
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I'm not sure if I'd call that aggro management, but that is indeed the strategy. Warrior charges and pulls them together, hitting thunderclap and demo shout. That puts all the damage on the warrior for the first part of the pull, allowing me to release a flamestrike unmolested before wading in to unleash the IAEs. Even while I'm AoEing, the warrior goes all out drawing threat on one of them to keep it off me, while a rogue does the same thing with a different one. That way I can keep AoEing them all without getting bitten by all of them.

[mjdoom]

You call this limiting?

Druid, Tank, Rezzer, something something. Hmm. All aoe classes have some form of CC, even weak hunter aoe has the fantastic Freeze trap. I don't think you're limited. Do you want space for four rogues or something?
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I have yet to find a group that thought using CC was a good idea in the Lyceum; maybe you know something I don't?

Shackle's never really required, though it does make a few encounters more painful.
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First off this makes no sense whatsoever but I'll assume you meant that it does make a few more encounters less painful. One specific example that sticks out in my mind is the Weldon Barov fight in Scholo. Especially considering that you play horde and do not have turn undead how would you approach this fight without any CC? Between Barov's aura and three mobs (with only 5 PCs and any pets they may have) they can deal out significant damage and don't die particularly quickly. Not knowing too much about Shamans I will assume that your warrior can take Barov and Shaman can off-tank one of his guards. That leaves a pet (or two in rare cases) and 2 dps classes to try to kill the other guard before moving along. They then have to proceed to down the other guard and Barov while the healer attempts to keep them all alive without going OOM (might not have to heal the shammy as much). I'm not saying that this isn't doable; but I am saying that I certainly wouldn't want to have to try it. You could always try to have a pet and the shammy draw the two guards away and have everyone else try to burn down Barov before they die; but that is arguably not beating the encounter. Being able to shackle one of the guards serves to lessen damage taken, help with focus fire, and ultimately shorten the battle (and you can keep that guard shackled as long as you have to if you need to regen to kill him). As I said; if you really want to try this with a druid healer go ahead; but I'd much prefer a priest myself.

The people that are completely biased against classes either don't know their class strengths. As demonstrated by Hilary, Druids can be for more ideal than priests for encounters.

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I don't have a bias against druids, I just feel that given some of their limitations there are times where you are better served to have a priest; maybe even bring a priest and a druid so you have the best of both and the druid can use cat form for dps or bear form for tanking when he doesn't have to heal.

I also looked back at Hillary's posts and see very little clear demonstration that druids are more ideal than priests. She pointed out that they have innervate which can be an excellent skill for long battles but is generally unnecessary (my priest rarely goes oom in instances). I will note that it is a trick druids could have up their sleeve for the aforementioned Barov encounter. She also pointed out the leather armor but Inner Fire means that this is really a non-issue. A priest with IF up probably has more armor than a druid outside of bear form. And I would argue that CC is kind of a moot point. Each class has their own form of CC that has its uses. Both are relatively limited if you ignore MC (which you seem to not be sold on). If you have more faith in MC (and I'd think CoS would help with this) then that will probably swing the CC advantage toward the priest.

I am far from thinking that druids can't make good healers; on the contrary I know that they can. That said; their hybrid nature leads to more inherent limitations on druids as a main healer (or else they would probably be too powerful). Ignoring all of these limitations and pointing out their advantages in other areas does not make them a better choice for main healer. It may very well make them a better choice in certain scenarios and would make it preferable to have priest/druid over priest/priest in many cases though.

In the end it is important to not only know the strengths of other classes; but their weaknesses as well. If you want to compose a solid group then understanding these strengths and weaknesses properly will probably lead to a group that can roll through most of the game. As you astutely pointed out this game is relatively easy once you figure stuff out. The reality that you can't always just compose the exact group that you want means that you have to improvise a bit more sometimes. In these cases a proper understanding of what you are approaching and who can best approach it will help you to succeed.

- mjdoom

[fractaled]

Fractaled, shut up.  It's an AoE pull.  There's no way to manage aggro on an AoE pull - I'll get them all eventually.  And they're linked.  I've been on upwards of thirty tribute runs and they've never been split.

i said "you should only be fighting 3 at a time", not because it's two groups (which i agree it isn't) but because proper CC means you don't have to gamble...

and by "manage aggro" i meant "don't use AoE there"...

--fractaled

[fractaled]

When his first comment is telling me (yes, I'm the mage) that I have no idea how to manage aggro, you better believe that I'll take offense.  Quite frankly, I have no need for him to tell me how to do my job. 

i did play a mage up to 47, so i felt i had room to comment... and from my perspective it looked like quark was talking about a mage that felt AoE was the solution to every problem...

And druid healing is more than sufficient, with the proper tactics, to AoE that pull.  The only thing is that healers, upon first encountering that pull, tend to be taken by surprise regarding the amount of sheer healing required, and so I die.

being a druid without nature's swiftness, and being the sole healer, i would give that AoE vs 6 dogs strat a 80% chance of resulting in the mage's death (say 30% with nature's swiftness)... you can bubble, and a druid can preload his HoTs, but you're still going to have about a 4 second gap between the 2nd and 3rd heals that is going to feel awfully long...

Quark's criticism is that druids' mechanism for fixing things that go wrong only works once every 30 minutes.
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was it? you obviously know him better than i, but with him saying "again", and that little "whistling" icon it sure seemed to me that he was saying SOMETHING about the mage... (and i wouldn't fault the mage if it was the group's decision to AoE that encounter -- i'd fault the group [and not because of its composition])...

--fractaled

[Skandranon]

and by "manage aggro" i meant "don't use AoE there"...
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AoE is the best solution to that pull. Those dogs put out quite a bit of damage, but if you sleep one and sheep one, that's still four dogs on the tank. Healing at the rate to keep the tank alive will result in numerous breakouts to the healer, not to mention what will happen if the sleep breaks early (stuttered heals, damage on the healer plus breakouts and the tank now has to keep track of five separate targets). AoE distills everyone's role into simple jobs that everyone can perform effectively.

[Skandranon]

from my perspective it looked like quark was talking about a mage that felt AoE was the solution to every problem...
was it? you obviously know him better than i, but with him saying "again", and that little "whistling" icon it sure seemed to me that he was saying SOMETHING about the mage...

I know Quark well indeed, and I can assure you that you read it incorrectly, though I can see how you gathered that impression. He's referring to the fact that Lurker and CA healers seem to have a hard time keeping me alive on AoE pulls, many of which they should have kept me alive on. They keep Psybie and Kapowee and Loch and Sabra alive, but if there's any chance anything can go wrong, it happens when they're healing me. They hit a wrong key or have the wrong target or whatever. Treesh is the only priest who's never lost me on an AoE pull for some silly reason or another. It's a bit of a guild joke which is lost on non-Stormragers.

That said, trying to dogpile on what you perceived to be someone he was bashing isn't the best way to determine who's at fault in any situation.

being a druid without nature's swiftness, and being the sole healer, i would give that AoE vs 6 dogs strat a 80% chance of resulting in the mage's death (say 30% with nature's swiftness)... you can bubble, and a druid can preload his HoTs, but you're still going to have about a 4 second gap between the 2nd and 3rd heals that is going to feel awfully long... (and i wouldn't fault the mage if it was the group's decision to AoE that encounter -- i'd fault the group [and not because of its composition])...
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I called for AoE on that encounter, and druids with Nature's Swiftness (I don't even consider AoE if they don't) can heal that encounter just fine. They just can't do it when I'm the mage in the middle, for whatever reason.

[Drasca]

That way I can keep AoEing them all without getting bitten by all of them.
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Oh I definitely agree on all that. Horde Tauren tend to throw in warstomp in there as well, a racial 2 second aoe stun. Every moment matters, and that 2 second break is just enough to make aoe near painless. Of course if you were lucky enough to play alongside another aoe'r there's simply enough firepower to blow everything to bits.

WL/Mage synergy is especially enjoyable

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I think we're mostly in agreement. That shackle comment should read encounters are more painful without shackle.

Horde perspective: A restoration specced shaman has a totem called Mana tide. It provides serious mana for the entire party (100-200 per tick) for x number of seconds, basically giving second wind to all mana users, and especially healers. Between that and innervate, there's a lot of fighting juice.

If they aren't restoration specc'ed, have to take that into consideration before entering instances.

However, I was not thinking purely through the 5 man perspective lens. In a scholo raid, 2 druids is more than enough, although because it is an UD environment Priests are preferred. Not for the rez cooldown, but the obvious utility of shackle.

As for MC, it is a risky skill. Best used for 3 or less enemies. I like it, but I don't like when it breaks. In cases of 3 or less enemies, two forms of CC isolating 1 enemy at a time tends to be safer than MC'ing one enemy and having all the others angry at the priest and not pre-CC'ed.

Mind you, I do suggest MC, but always realizing there's a risk involved.

Its nice to evaluate strengths and limitations, but honestly the game itself is really really easy. The challenge isn't in picking your class mix, because with the right people you can adapt against anything. There are very few limitations to accomplishing your PvE objectives. I gloss over class limitations because they are easily overcome with adaptive training and strategy.

Druids need a rezzer? Well you tend to want two people able to rez, and a wipe prevention method independent of all that too. Shamans and Paladins are abundant on both sides, and both with such tricks. Stealthy engineers can save the day too. The methods to victory vary too greatly and come too abundantly to truly be limited.

[fractaled]

AoE is the best solution to that pull.  Those dogs put out quite a bit of damage, but if you sleep one and sheep one, that's still four dogs on the tank.  Healing at the rate to keep the tank alive will result in numerous breakouts to the healer, not to mention what will happen if the sleep breaks early (stuttered heals, damage on the healer plus breakouts and the tank now has to keep track of five separate targets).  AoE distills everyone's role into simple jobs that everyone can perform effectively.
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i strongly disagree... i strongly recommend you try the CC approach and compare it...

i've said this a number of times already, but with mage, druid, warrior, hunter, rogue, against 6 dogs, one should be sheeped, one hibernated, one ice trapped, and one can be on the hunter's pet... that leaves TWO for the warrior to worry about for 30-45 seconds... if you focus fire you should easily be able to kill two of them in 30 seconds... the warrior will probably only need a HoT... and you can always recast hibernate and poly if you're worried about it breaking...

even if things did go wrong during the pull, a warrior with 4 dogs on him is a lot better than a mage with 6... if the warrior has decent gear, healing him works like "wait till he hits 50-60% health and start casting", repeat (100% efficiency)... healing a mage with 4 (or 6 dogs) is almost always horribly mana inefficient for 2 reasons, cloth vs plate, and with a 3.5 second heal the druid can't risk leaving the mage at much less than full health because a mage can easily lose 75%+ of their health vs 4-6 dogs in a few seconds, which often means doing full heals and overhealing...

also, in a decent group, the tank should not have to worry about breakouts very often... the healer should have at most 2 targets to heal: the tank and MA, and usually the MA isn't in need of more than a HoT every once in a while... but even if the tank misses a step and the healer gets aggro, a druid can barkskip and/or switch to bear form (tanks usually pick up on that)...

--fractaled

[Tal]

i've said this a number of times already, but with mage, druid, warrior, hunter, rogue, against 6 dogs, one should be sheeped, one hibernated, one ice trapped, and one can be on the hunter's pet... that leaves TWO for the warrior to worry about for 30-45 seconds... if you focus fire you should easily be able to kill two of them in 30 seconds... the warrior will probably only need a HoT... and you can always recast hibernate and poly if you're worried about it breaking...
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Frost trap lasts up to 20 seconds, hibernate up to 40 seconds. In practice both seem to break earlier than that. Yes you can recast hibernate but that still leaves one on a pet tank, two on the warrior and one roaming loose and more than likely pissed off at the healer.

Doable but I think I might prefer AoE. :)

[Quark]

also, in a decent group, the tank should not have to worry about breakouts very often... [right][snapback]82300[/snapback][/right]

Sorry, I don't play Theorycraft too well. CC that's applied is CC that can break early, even when it's not the fault of others. Just last night I can think of at least two times Shackle broke before it should have, with no player breaking it.

Broken CC is a way of life, and when it happens unexpectedly (IE wasn't caused by a player) it's when there's the biggest chance of problems.