Dii.net has a Mercenary IAS calculator

[Taem]

http://www.diabloii.net/townsfolk/mercias/

[Jarulf]

http://www.diabloii.net/townsfolk/mercias/

I might be missing something, but were is the "calculator"? I just find a bunch of tables.

[Taem]

I might be missing something, but were is the "calculator"? I just find a bunch of tables.

Ah, a misprint on my part. It is clearly a list of tables :blink:

I saw people asking about mercenary information and thought this might be useful as I don't believe a table like this has been complied by anyone yet.

[Jarulf]

>Ah, a misprint on my part. It is clearly a list of tables
>:blink:

No problem :)

>I saw people asking about mercenary information and
>thought this might be useful as I don't believe a table
>like this has been complied by anyone yet.

Well, this German site has EAXCTLY the same tables (plus an actually calculator):

http://diablo2.ingame.de/tips/calcs/weapon...hp?lang=english


As I understand it,, the whole reason Worgus put together the page (appearantly the information was sent by someone wanting to be anonymous) was that people asked, the link to the German site was posted as reply, deleted, discussed some and Worgus mentioned he could put together a page with the needed info so that people could post an answer with a proper link. Seems nice someone sent him some info, wonder who and where IT came from. Oh well. I would have assumed the guy who made the German page.

[Ruvanal]

...Seems nice someone sent him some info, wonder who and where IT came from. Oh well. I would have assumed the guy who made the German page.

But then why would the guy who made the German page want to be anonymous? Nor provide any information on how these values were derived.

Looks more like a case of diabloii.net pages that list the mercanary statistics.
http://www.diabloii.net/townsfolk/mercs2.shtml
check the individual links on the right like this one.
http://www.diabloii.net/townsfolk/sorc-cold.shtml

This information was ripped from Spirea's Calculator. This can be seen if you are aware as I am that in at least two cases Spirea had transposed data in the calculators internal tables and caused some inncorrect information to be presented. This inncorrect informtion is exactly duplicted in the selections that are listed at diabloii.net. One example is that the Act3 cold merc in hell difficulty actually has their Frozen Armor skill at a fixed skill level of 15 and Spiera's has as varible by level; this is exactly duplicated on diablii.net. Also there is nowhere that I could see any credit given to Spirea or anyone that Spirea also gives credit to.

Considering that several of that sites information pages show signs of just being information copied from Arreat Summit (including in many cases the typos and other minor errors), it makes wonder at how good any their information is with out a definitive source that it came from.

[Brista]

This really rather bothers me

Perhaps they go through the thinking:
- ban that competitive link
- oh, we need that information
- let's ask if anyone can find out
- oh, good a member has supplied it and we can satisfy ourselves that we haven't directly ripped it off from someone else's site

I can't see why they don't either

a ) organise tests. They have a huge community. It's not a great deal of work if you get other people to do it ;)
or
b ) give credit where credit is due

Quite apart from anything else if they really are taking that business-minded "competitor sites" issue so seriously are they not at least slightly concerned that they lay themselves completely open to expensive legal action from their "rivals". Reproducing mistakes has been very compelling evidence in instances of copyright legislation in other fields. In my country for instance the main cartographic service puts deliberate minor errors in its maps so they can have an effective copyright enforcement programme.

And getting their information "innocently" from a member of their community would be no defence in court

Just my (lay) opinion

[Brista]

Edit: never mind

[Tommi]

But then why would the guy who made the German page want to be anonymous?  Nor provide any information on how these values were derived.

I think that the German calculator is by Heri as the copyright says. I remember him/her posting at the LL, because he/she is credited in my paladin guide.

Cheers,

Tommi

[nookiestar]

I have asked both Heri (who has programmed the calculater) and Tub (who is responsible for the mercenary's IAS tables) whether anyone (from diabloii.net or elsewhere) had sent them a message about that issue over the last days or weeks - they both denied. In fact, they were quite "surprised" when they saw the news on diabloii.net.

By the way: Even if there is some "hidden person" that wants to stay anonymously (and I am pretty sure we all know that this is nonsense) ... he would not even have the right to give a permission to use or copy that data.

The point is (and that is also what Heri told me after he had contacted the diabloii.net guys): Noone can prove that they have actually not made their own tests. That data can theoretically be found out by anyone - and nobody has a copyright for them.

cu

[Jarulf]

I have asked both Heri (who has programmed the calculater) and Tub (who is responsible for the mercenary's IAS tables) whether anyone (from diabloii.net or elsewhere) had sent them a message about that issue over the last days or weeks - they both denied. In fact, they were quite "surprised" when they saw the news on diabloii.net.

By the way: Even if there is some "hidden person" that wants to stay anonymously (and I am pretty sure we all know that this is nonsense) ... he would not even have the right to give a permission to use or copy that data.

The point is (and that is also what Heri told me after he had contacted the diabloii.net guys): Noone can prove that they have actually not made their own tests. That data can theoretically be found out by anyone - and nobody has a copyright for them.

cu

I have been gone for the past week so have not been able or had time to look at anything, especially not new posts. Anyway, the issue would not be the actual data itself, but the presentation of it (THAT is covered by copyright by the way). Even if you do your own tests use the same formulas (which seems to not exist to start with by the way) and so on, you don't end up with the same layout, the exact same three data columns in that order. The exact same start and end value for thr tables. One thing that struck me, why the "half" fram values, since the game can't process half frames, why have it, and why do BOTH sites then have it? Just one example of a thing that you don't just "end up with" by yourself independantly.

[nookiestar]

Well, there is even another indication.

IIRC, Tub has modified the chance to use the Jab attack for act2 hirelings to 100 percent before carrying out his tests. In an unmodified game, that chance is varying with both the type of the merc and his level (from ~50 percent to almost 100 percent). For some easier testing and due to the fact, that people would especially need information for high-level hirelings (with usually very high chances to use Jab), this small change made things a lot easier.

That is why you will always see the description "Jab" in the calculator's skill field when choosing act2 mercenaries. Well, and what did Worgus (or his mysterious friend) do? They just ignored that fact and still got the very same tables. Strange, isn't it?

Oh, and why are there "half-frames" in the tables? I think, the first part of the Jab attack uses the animation of the normal attack (similar to Strafe or Zeal, for instance). So, if this very first part is accelerated and the "rest" of the attack isn't, you can try to approximate that by such a "half-frame scaling". At least, that is what Tub has tried.

cu

[Ruvanal]

The point is (and that is also what Heri told me after he had contacted the diabloii.net guys): Noone can prove that they have actually not made their own tests. That data can theoretically be found out by anyone - and nobody has a copyright for them.

Ah... but what would their response be on the stat information copied from Spirea's site. They would need to explain how they exactly copied the errors that are present in that calculator that also show up in their tables. If they had done the work them selves, they should not have consistenly had the same errors in their tables.

Oh and by the way, Worgus had posted in a thread the he would be putting up the tables that he made.
Your link in another thread:
http://forums.rpgforums.net/showthread.php...threadid=165851

Worgus
Registered: May 2002
Location: Some people go through their entire lives wondering if they made a difference.....MARINES don't have that problem..... Ronald Regan
Posts: 1052
I put together some IAS tables for Mercs. They will be up online in the next day or so. I'll make an announcement and post the link as soon as Elly approves them.

-Worgus
__________________
- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.

So from this it appears that he is the author of the tables.

Also as a side note, there was a brief thread over the weekend on their statistics forum that went something like this:

post1: forumadmin (one of the other forums): wanted to know the act 3 merc cast rates, since these were not in the recently posted tables.
post2: member: started to post a link to the information. Then made a deletion note in place of the link and stated that they did not want to flaunt the formum rules.
post3: forumadmin: started telling the member that they should have just copied the tables from the other site and posted them in the thread intead of not giving the link.
post4: Ruvanal: I noted to the admin that the first poster was problably going to be giving a link to a calculator (probably Heri's) and not a table. Also the this would probably be not giving proper credit to whoever did the orginal work and would be the wrong thing to be doing. I also pointed out that diabloii.net was also using information ripped from Spireas calcualtor, including the exact errors in the caclulator.
<the forumadmin then deletes the test from post1 and totaly deletes post3 so that it is not even apparent that it is there>
post5: forumadmin: says that the orginal post should have been deleted intead of replied to. Hopes that there is no misinterpetation of what is posted then.
post6: forumadmin: Repeats a request as was in orginally post1.
post7: Ruvanal: I point out that my previous post and members post do not make sense (our qouted material is not deleted with posts1 and 3) and it does make us look like we are not very clear in our heads. I pointed out that an appology for asking something that he should not been asking would be better and that this could have then served as an example of what not to be having other do for information references.
<at this point the entire thread is deleted from the forums>
followed by a PM from the forumadmin: ...deleted the thread because it looked ugly and I don't want to give a bad impression for people in the forum. (plus some other stuff relating to the orginal question).

To me it seems to be an attitude to just take whatever they want, however they can get it.

[aurikan]

Well, facts can't be copyrighted.
If they are jerks they'd just rip the information and repost it with no value added and minimal credits.
That certainly seems what they've done.

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

...deleted the thread because it looked ugly and I don't want to give a bad impression for people in the forum.

Pretty much sums it up, there. Form over substance, I'm afraid. That, and their overriding need to have THEIR site recognized as the only, one true Diablo fansite has brought them to a point of Censorship (in the most destructive context).

Diabloii.net is challenging the Jesus Seminar for pompousness and self-promotion. Yay for them.

The result? People like myself use their pages for quick references, but not for pointed questions. People like myself don't bother registering there to post; for there are far better, cleaner and less "pubbie" places to discuss the nuances of the game, the details and life in general.

There are worthies there, of course. There are worthies at the Amazon Basin as well, though I don't choose to visit there too often. In my experience over time, I've found that the "scholars" that can give the "answers" will visit HERE, along with any other haunts they frequent.

With that, I'm content. Besides, I've got my favorite chair all broken in... and I detest moving.

*tips helm*

[Jarulf]

Well, facts can't be copyrighted.
If they are jerks they'd just rip the information and repost it with no value added and minimal credits.
That certainly seems what they've done.

As I said, no facts won't get a copyright, but the compilation and presentation of them do. IN this case that is identical, and hence I would say there is no doubt there is a copyright infringment. You can't just say "I just happened to end up with a book/song/game/whatever identical to what you did".

[Jarulf]

The point is (and that is also what Heri told me after he had contacted the diabloii.net guys): Noone can prove that they have actually not made their own tests. That data can theoretically be found out by anyone - and nobody has a copyright for them.

Ah... but what would their response be on the stat information copied from Spirea's site. They would need to explain how they exactly copied the errors that are present in that calculator that also show up in their tables. If they had done the work them selves, they should not have consistenly had the same errors in their tables.

Oh and by the way, Worgus had posted in a thread the he would be putting up the tables that he made.
Your link in another thread:
http://forums.rpgforums.net/showthread.php...threadid=165851

Worgus
Registered: May 2002
Location: Some people go through their entire lives wondering if they made a difference.....MARINES don't have that problem..... Ronald Regan
Posts: 1052
I put together some IAS tables for Mercs. They will be up online in the next day or so. I'll make an announcement and post the link as soon as Elly approves them.

-Worgus
__________________
- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.

So from this it appears that he is the author of the tables.

Also as a side note, there was a brief thread over the weekend on their statistics forum that went something like this:

post1: forumadmin (one of the other forums): wanted to know the act 3 merc cast rates, since these were not in the recently posted tables.
post2: member: started to post a link to the information. Then made a deletion note in place of the link and stated that they did not want to flaunt the formum rules.
post3: forumadmin: started telling the member that they should have just copied the tables from the other site and posted them in the thread intead of not giving the link.
post4: Ruvanal: I noted to the admin that the first poster was problably going to be giving a link to a calculator (probably Heri's) and not a table. Also the this would probably be not giving proper credit to whoever did the orginal work and would be the wrong thing to be doing. I also pointed out that diabloii.net was also using information ripped from Spireas calcualtor, including the exact errors in the caclulator.
<the forumadmin then deletes the test from post1 and totaly deletes post3 so that it is not even apparent that it is there>
post5: forumadmin: says that the orginal post should have been deleted intead of replied to. Hopes that there is no misinterpetation of what is posted then.
post6: forumadmin: Repeats a request as was in orginally post1.
post7: Ruvanal: I point out that my previous post and members post do not make sense (our qouted material is not deleted with posts1 and 3) and it does make us look like we are not very clear in our heads. I pointed out that an appology for asking something that he should not been asking would be better and that this could have then served as an example of what not to be having other do for information references.
<at this point the entire thread is deleted from the forums>
followed by a PM from the forumadmin: ...deleted the thread because it looked ugly and I don't want to give a bad impression for people in the forum. (plus some other stuff relating to the orginal question).

To me it seems to be an attitude to just take whatever they want, however they can get it.

Inserting small, deliberate but unimportant errors is a comon way to see if your data or whatever get ripped. Someone mentioned it is coomon for map makers for example.

As for the thread you commented. I am not aware fo the extra few posts at the end since I never saw them. I am aware of it up until he edited his posts and removed the request (since I was in part responsible for it :) ). It was really not a "bad" attitude I would say or so but actually a cinser and good intention I would say. The problem was sort of an admin not really aware of the strong "no link" attitude on the boards and it just didn't end up well. Oh well, bad explanation withouth hanging out anyone.

[Heri]

Inserting small, deliberate but unimportant errors is a comon way to see if your data or whatever get ripped. Someone mentioned it is coomon for map makers for example.

Yes, I even considered it sometime before, as the calculator included more and more unique information (e.g. Frenzy and so on). But I never thought the D2 community would sink so deeply to think seriously about such methods...

The current situation is that I got an answer from Worgus saying the information is from a "friend" and he wants to ask him whether he copied it or not. Well, the answer is from April 12 and I never received another one, even after my reminder last sunday.

[Brista]

Apologies all for raking over an old wound but I just read the diablo.de list of 1.10 changes that Nobbie re-posted to the AB site with the appropriate credit here:
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/in...ST&f=42&t=25473

I then thought Huh??? I read this list this morning. But not on diablo.de

The exact same list, down to the punctuation

Including this note:

Skill interaction does not seem to have changed. They have not limited the number of skeletons...the max number on Raise Skeleton, Skeletal Mage and Revive is all 20.

Now it did NOT say that on the AS, that particular info was added by the person reporting the changes

Guess where I saw it though?

http://diabloii.net/items/v110/skills.shtml

(attributed to their "quick readers")

:angry: