Guild Wars: Character Profession Primary attribute

[TriggerHappy]

Expertise - it only reduces the mana cost of attack skills.

Not entirely correct. It also reduces the cost of preparations and traps (but not stances, unfortunately).

[TriggerHappy]

Some links that may be of interest to fans of Guild Wars:

Damage vs Armor, Weapon damage, Attack Speed, Fast Casting and other calculators:

http://paladins.viperhosting.net/?p=stuff

Always the most recently updated skill list:

http://www.gwonline.net/

[TriggerHappy]

I'd frankly say that the Elementalist mana bonus is really a mediocre attribute at best... Considering that Soul Reaping is superior in all but 4v4 pvp.

The Elementalist starts a battle with say, 30 extra mana, from 10 points in Energy Storage, right? Well, if throughout the course of the battle, your mana will never go above what a typical caster's maximum is (And it shouldn't... You should be casting, not staring into speace!), then that's the entire bonus. 30 extra mana. You burn through it, and it only comes into play the next time you fight.

The Necromancer, on the other hand, with 10 Soul Reaping, will gain 10 mana when something, anything, dies. In PvE, with large groups of monsters, itll definetely prove to be superior to Energy Storage, by far.  It also makes minions viable - 10 mana for the corpse hitting the floor, 10 mana for when your minion dies - almost pays off the 25 investment. After you make 4 kills, you already get a bigger benefit then Energy Storage would provide.

In PvP, especially Tombs, Soul Reaping really shines - its the only attribute that gets stronger, the more time a battle takes. If your team is losing members, then the extra mana may change the tides - if your team is winning, then it gives you an extra safety cushion, in case things go wrong.

I have to strongly disagree with that.

Soul Reaping is 'uber' in PvE but really underwhelming in PvP.

Just let me put it this way:

Assuming you have 10 in Soul Reaping (massive investment)

In order for you to get 80, just 80 energy from Sould Reaping, 8 people have to die. And you have NO control over when this happens. You're just as likely to have max energy at the time this happens and it'll be wasted.

On the other hand, with 10 in Energy Storage you get a total of 60 energy (70 with an Icon), and are able to use it when you need it. Not when somebody happens to die.

And usually, by the time even 4 people have died, the battle has already been decided, and that extra energy is helping very little. It's more important to do as much damage as possible from the start, to take out damage/healing generators from the start. And for that you need burst firepower. And to have burst firepower, you need energy reserves.

For "burst" damage potential, Energy Storage is unparalleled. Only Expertise comes close.

But that's not the extrent of the problems with Soul Reaping. The range is extremely limited (half the minimap), so you don't get energy for those deaths that happen away from your location (when you're on the pedestal in the Tombs, for example). It's also hard to accumulate a sufficient number of pets in PvP, so you can't really exploit that aspect of Soul Reaping either.

To add insult to injury, the Elementalist's Aura of Restoration is really not that great of a skill in PvP. It may mend little nicks and bruises, but its not going to save your life when two warriors, a ranger, and 2 elementalists are focusing their fire on you.

To tie in with the above, the main use for Aura of Restoration is actually not healing ;) .

Using Aura of Restoration (Enchantment), Fire Attunement (Enchantment) and Ether Renewal (Enchantment, Elite) with 10 in energy storage, you'll be gaining 4 energy every time you cast Flare or Stone Daggers. Witih 1 second cast time and zero recharge time on those spammable skills, you can gain 40 energy in 10 seconds (while, ofcourse, doing damage).

How? Because this is what Ether Renewal does:

Ether Renewal {Elite}:
Description: For the next 10 seconds, each time you cast a spell, you gain 1 - 4 energy for each Enchantment on you.
Energy Cost: 10.
Casting Time: 1 second.
Recharge Time: 30 seconds.
Linked Attribute: Energy Storage. Increases energy gained.
Skill Type: Enchantment Spell.


To make this even more powerful, use an Elementalist/Mesmer with Arcane Echo.

Arcane Echo:
Description: If you cast a spell in the next 10 - 32 seconds, Arcane Echo is replaced with that spell for 20 seconds. Arcane Echo ends prematurely if you use a non-spell skill.
Energy Cost: 15.
Casting Time: 2 seconds.
Recharge Time: 30 seconds.
Linked Attribute: Illusion. Increases duration.
Skill Type: Spell.

Echo Ether Renewal (yes, you can echo elite spells) and you have unlimited energy.

[SwissMercenary]

Regarding situational skills:

Remove Hex/Enchantment is also situational. As is every skill, yes.

But you can pretty much say that 98% of the time, you will be using Remove Hex. And you will be using it to good purpose. Not to mention that if you do NOT bring it, the consequences can be quite dire. Conjure Phantasm = smacks you for -120 life, if its not removed. If you counter it with Remove Hex, its equivalent to a 120 health heal.

On the other hand (Outside of the aformentioned Ranger ritual), Mantra of Flame has a more limited use. Not all teams have a fire elementalist. The said elementalist will probably be using AoE skills - such is the power of fire. Using it against a single target does not provide the most impressive results - hence, if you have one character cutting 50% of the damage they take... When three others are still taking the full blast, its not exactly a dampener to the fire ele. Now, the mantras lost their -1 energy regen penalty, making Mantra of Flames acceptable as a filler - hey, its free :P. Apologies - I was not aware of that change when I commented on their (ex-lack of) usefullness (in most situations).

Of course, if I have an extra skill slot, I'd probably slap in a Signet of Midnight, or a Spirit Shackles or a... "Insert a whole bunch of skills here" prior to taking Mantra of Flames. It's one of those hit and miss things, really.

[SwissMercenary]

I have to strongly disagree with that.

Soul Reaping is 'uber' in PvE but really underwhelming in PvP.

Just let me put it this way:

Assuming you have 10 in Soul Reaping (massive investment)

In order for you to get 80, just 80 energy from Sould Reaping, 8 people have to die. And you have NO control over when this happens. You're just as likely to have max energy at the time this happens and it'll be wasted.

On the other hand, with 10 in Energy Storage you get a total of 60 energy (70 with an Icon), and are able to use it when you need it. Not when somebody happens to die.

Ahem.

My friend, you are forgetting that necromancers (with an Icon) START with 40 energy.

Energy Storage at 10 only gives a bonus of +30 energy.

And if you are at max energy, when someone is dieing... Either your team is mopping up the two guys that are left... Or something is wrong with your playstyle. Something is REALLY wrong with your playstyle.

And usually, by the time even 4 people have died, the battle has already been decided, and that extra energy is helping very little. It's more important to do as much damage as possible from the start, to take out damage/healing generators from the start. And for that you need burst firepower. And to have burst firepower, you need energy reserves.

Oh, if you are a monk, and 4 people have died, the battle has barely begun...

Note that IF four people have died that the elementalist's burst damage is already gone... And Soul Reaping takes over. I may also add that most battles do last long enough for the elementalist to burn through all their mana, several times... Hence, the +30 energy from their Energy Storage was the only use they got out of it.

But that's not the extrent of the problems with Soul Reaping.  The range is extremely limited (half the minimap), so you don't get energy for those deaths that happen away from your location (when you're on the pedestal in the Tombs, for example).  It's also hard to accumulate a sufficient number of pets in PvP, so you can't really exploit that aspect of Soul Reaping either.
To tie in with the above, the main use for Aura of Restoration is actually not healing ;) .

The range is one of the nuances of using the skill - instead of lamenting on its lack of usefullness, maybe looking over one's battle tactics might help out more?

And I do believe that in the last BWE, the range got a buff.

Using Aura of Restoration (Enchantment), Fire Attunement (Enchantment) and Ether Renewal (Enchantment, Elite) with 10 in energy storage, you'll be gaining 4 energy every time you cast Flare or Stone Daggers.  Witih 1 second cast time and zero recharge time on those spammable skills, you can gain 40 energy in 10 seconds (while, ofcourse, doing damage).

How?  Because this is what  Ether Renewal does:

Ether Renewal {Elite}:
Description: For the next 10 seconds, each time you cast a spell, you gain 1 - 4 energy for each Enchantment on you.
Energy Cost: 10.
Casting Time: 1 second.
Recharge Time: 30 seconds.
Linked Attribute: Energy Storage. Increases energy gained.
Skill Type: Enchantment Spell.
To make this even more powerful, use an Elementalist/Mesmer with Arcane Echo.

Arcane Echo:
Description: If you cast a spell in the next 10 - 32 seconds, Arcane Echo is replaced with that spell for 20 seconds. Arcane Echo ends prematurely if you use a non-spell skill.
Energy Cost: 15.
Casting Time: 2 seconds.
Recharge Time: 30 seconds.
Linked Attribute: Illusion. Increases duration.
Skill Type: Spell.

Echo Ether Renewal (yes, you can echo elite spells) and you have unlimited energy.
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Unfortunately, that plan is based off enchantments - a Rend Enchantments would really throw a monkey wrench into the system. Soul Reaping, on the other hand, is an uncounterable passive bonus.

And if we are talking about: "Which skills emulate primary professions", I can claim that Mantra of Recall = Energy Storage.

[TriggerHappy]

Ahem.

My friend, you are forgetting that necromancers (with an Icon) START with 40 energy.

As do Elementalists ...

Energy Storage at 10 only gives a bonus of +30 energy.

Correct. This fact was not in dispute.

And if you are at max energy, when someone is dieing... Either your team is mopping up the two guys that are left... Or something is wrong with your playstyle. Something is REALLY wrong with your playstyle.

Nah, it just means you're a secondary Mesmer or Ranger and you've filled up your energy pool using the Mesmer drain skills or Marksman's Wager. You might also be BIPed by friendly Necromancers, and have more energy than you know what to do with. Or you're a primary or even secondary Elementalist and have energy constantly availalbe through even 1 point based Ether Renewal.

I wouldn't decide something's wrong with another's playstyle if they're very good at keeping their energy pool filled through inventive use of skills and attributes ;) .

Oh, if you are a monk, and 4 people have died, the battle has barely begun...

If that's 4 people on their side, you're mopping up their Warriors/Rangers. If it's 4 dead on your side, you've lost. Your monk isn't going to get any spells off thanks to enemy Rangers. Certainly no Monk lives for long when I'm playing my Ranger/Elementalist, Ranger/Mesmer or Elementalist/Ranger.

Besides, if you're a Monk, wouldn't Divine Favour or Energy Storage be more useful to you as a prime attribute? Monks are more capable than ANY class out there of abusing Ether Renewal, thanks to their fast cast spells and low cost healing.

Note that IF four people have died that the elementalist's burst damage is already gone... And Soul Reaping takes over.

Why would the Elementalist's burst potential be gone? Using Ether Renewal, Marksman's Wager or Mantra of Recall he's got a 70 energy pool to fill very quickly. Not only does the Elementalist/Mesmer or Elementalist/Ranger have twice the Energy capacity of the Necromancer, but he can fill it quickly (while doing damage), and have 100% control over it.

I may also add that most battles do last long enough for the elementalist to burn through all their mana, several times... Hence, the +30 energy from their Energy Storage was the only use they got out of it.

That's a common mistake. There are so many ways to refill that energy pool quickly. Sometimes so quickly that it screams "unbalanced!" (see Ether Renewal or Mantra of Recall).

The range is one of the nuances of using the skill - instead of lamenting on its lack of usefullness, maybe looking over one's battle tactics might help out more?

If your tactic involves getting in range of a Ranger's flatbow, I don't really want any part of them.

And I do believe that in the last BWE, the range got a buff.

Correct, that was the buff. It's now finally half the minimap in range.

Unfortunately, that plan is based off enchantments - a Rend Enchantments would really throw a monkey wrench into the system. Soul Reaping, on the other hand, is an uncounterable passive bonus.

Rend Enchantments
Description: Target foe loses 2-8 enchantments. For each Monk enchantment removed, you take 40 damage.
Energy Cost: 10
Activation Time: 3 Seconds.
Recharge Time: 30 Seconds.
Linked Attribute: Curses. Increases enchantments removed.
Skill Type: Spell.

See the highlighted part? That's the reason Rend Enchantements (and other skills like it) was never a real threat to me in any of the PvP matches I've participated in (which is quite a few, over the BWEs). They can't keep up.

More importantly, I can stil fight even without those enchantements. Nor does removing them do any damage to ME. I'll just recast them later and refill my energy. Meanwhile, I'll kill the Necromancer who's cast it on me.

And ofcourse Rend Enchantmenets and other skills like it do nothing to stop the Marksman's Wager (preparation) and Mantra of Recall (stance) refill methods.

And if we are talking about: "Which skills emulate primary professions", I can claim that Mantra of Recall = Energy Storage.

It's not an either/or choice that you're forced to make. You use Mantra of Recall to fill your 2x energy capacity allowed by Energy Storage ;) . Or atleast that's what Elementalists who wish to keep up their damage output do. The only unfortunate thing is that you must take another stance to be able to use Mantra of Recall. Thankfully, that's a pretty small price to pay for the benefit.

Mantra of Recall, Marksman's Wager and Ether Renewal are all very powerful ways to get much more energy to play with, than the utterly uncontrollable and situational Soul Reaping will ever be capable of.

[SwissMercenary]

As do Elementalists ...
Correct.  This fact was not in dispute.
Nah, it just means you're a secondary Mesmer or Ranger and you've filled up your energy pool using the Mesmer drain skills or Marksman's Wager.  You might also be BIPed by friendly Necromancers, and have more energy than you know what to do with.  Or you're a primary or even secondary Elementalist and have energy constantly availalbe  through even 1 point based Ether Renewal.

Translation: Soul Reaping does not work too well 1% of the time when you are a typical character, or with 5% of the characters that are slightly atypical (Energy hoarders)

I wouldn't decide something's wrong with another's playstyle if they're very good at keeping their energy pool filled through inventive use of skills and attributes ;) .

If you have max mana, in a pitched battle, for more then 2 seconds (And the odds of Soul Reaping going off in those 2 out of 40 seconds?), I do believe there is something wrong with one's playstyle, because, you know, you could be... Casting spells..? :mellow:

If that's 4 people on their side, you're mopping up their Warriors/Rangers.  If it's 4 dead on your side, you've lost.  Your monk isn't going to get any spells off thanks to enemy Rangers.  Certainly no Monk lives for long when I'm playing my Ranger/Elementalist, Ranger/Mesmer or Elementalist/Ranger.

Right. And if its 2/2? And if one guy died, got ressed, another guy died, got ressed, repeat 4x? Or if its a drawn out battle with characters reviving? Or if someone brought a pet along? In all those cases, suddenly, Soul Reaping is better then energy storage.

Besides, if you're a Monk, wouldn't Divine Favour or Energy Storage be more useful to you as a prime attribute?  Monks are more capable than ANY class out there of abusing Ether Renewal, thanks to their fast cast spells and low cost healing.
Why would the Elementalist's burst potential be gone?  Using Ether Renewal, Marksman's Wager or Mantra of Recall he's got a 70 energy pool to fill very quickly.  Not only does the Elementalist/Mesmer or Elementalist/Ranger have twice the Energy capacity of the Necromancer, but he can fill it quickly (while doing damage), and have 100% control over it.

Divine Favour - its a viable alternative. If you are mostly using Orison for healing, it is a very much viable alternative. However, if you are slapping on Healing Seeds and Word of Healings, the Divine Favour bonus is suddenly diminished in power.

You also seem to base your entire tactic around Ether Renewal... May I bring up Shatter Enchantment/Rend Enchatment again? Or the fact that it requires an elite slot, and a few enchantments to get the best benefit out of it?

That's a common mistake.  There are so many ways to refill that energy pool quickly.  Sometimes so quickly that it screams "unbalanced!" (see Ether Renewal or Mantra of Recall).
If your tactic involves getting in range of a Ranger's flatbow, I don't really want any part of them.
Correct, that was the buff.  It's now finally half the minimap in range.
Rend Enchantments
Description: Target foe loses 2-8 enchantments. For each Monk enchantment removed, you take 40 damage.   
Energy Cost: 10
Activation Time: 3 Seconds.
Recharge Time: 30 Seconds.
Linked Attribute: Curses. Increases enchantments removed.
Skill Type: Spell.

See the highlighted part?  That's the reason Rend Enchantements (and other skills like it) was never a real threat to me in any of the PvP matches I've participated in (which is quite a few, over the BWEs).  They can't keep up.

Right. Ether Renewal/Aura of Restoration? 30 second cooldown. Healing Seed? 25 second cooldown. Healing Hands? 25 second cooldown. XXX Attunement? 60 second cooldown. Funny. All the impressive enchantments that don't sap a regeneration arrow... Have the same cooldown as Rend Enchantments. Consider that it removes several of them.

More importantly, I can stil fight even without those enchantements.  Nor does removing them do any damage to ME.  I'll just recast them later and refill my energy.  Meanwhile, I'll kill the Necromancer who's cast it on me.

And the Necromancer is suddenly completely and utterly crippled after Rending, in what way..?

And ofcourse Rend Enchantmenets and other skills like it do nothing to stop the Marksman's Wager (preparation) and Mantra of Recall (stance) refill methods.
It's not an either/or choice that you're forced to make.  You use Mantra of Recall to fill your 2x energy capacity allowed by Energy Storage ;) .  Or atleast that's what Elementalists who wish to keep up their damage output do.  The only unfortunate thing is that you must take another stance to be able to use Mantra of Recall.  Thankfully, that's a pretty small price to pay for the benefit.

There's more then one way to skin a cat. And more then one way to regenerate mana. While Ether Renewal is best suited for low cost, low cooldown skills, consider that most necromancer skills have medium to high mana costs and cooldowns. Soul Reaping, on the other hand, benefits any skill choice - as long as you aren't sitting around with full mana for half the battle.

Mantra of Recall, Marksman's Wager and Ether Renewal are all very powerful ways to get much more energy to play with, than the utterly uncontrollable and situational Soul Reaping will ever be capable of.
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Right. And <Insert skill combo here> is much more effective then <Insert attribute here>.

Well, gee, you know, maybe primary attributes are meant to... Supplement character power... Instead of winning the match for you?

Edit: Regarding the Energy Storage @ 10 = +30 mana thing, your post made it appear that Energy Strorage = +70 mana. Which, is frankly, quite misleading.

[TaiDaishar]

Keep in mind fellas, everything is situational, and neither Energy Storage nor Soul Reaping is worthless or uber, it depends on the situation.

* TaiDaishar opens a jar of cookies

[Swiss Mercenary]

Keep in mind fellas, everything is situational, and neither Energy Storage nor Soul Reaping is worthless or uber, it depends on the situation.

* Swiss Mercenary opens a jar of cookies
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B) Yes, death in PvP is a very situational event. :lol:

But, no, I wouldn't call ES too situational - well, unless you go through a fight without dipping below 30 mana... Which is just as unlikely as being at max mana... Every time that something dies.

But, if you do want to get anal, everything is situational. But some things are more situational then others. ;)

[Swiss Mercenary]

Not entirely correct.&nbsp; It also reduces the cost of preparations and traps (but not stances, unfortunately).
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Mmh, the fault is mine. I don't play rangers, aside from some toying with the pre-builds.

[TaiDaishar]

What I meant was that both ES and SR are better or worse at situational times, you cannot argue which one is better, just like arguing what's tastier, strawberries or cherries? (Cherries for the win!)

[TriggerHappy]

I do believe there is something wrong with one's playstyle, because, you know, you could be... Casting spells..?

It is by casting spells or by using bow attacks with Marksman's Wager that you keep you energy pool filled to the brink. Two examples of how my characters accomplish this:

Method 1:
Elementalist/Ranger:

Once this character gets low on energy, I switch to my flatbow and fire a Crippling Shot at the closest target (but not a Necro prime/sec, don't want "crippled" getting sent back at me), cast Marksman's Wager, start firing arrows enchanted with Conjure [Element] at the closes most convinient target. Not only do I refill my energy pool for my nuke spells, but I also do decent damage in the process. I'd usually get about 40 energy from one usage of Marksman's Wager, enough to get me almost to full energy. At which point I switch out to my Icon/Wand and start chain casting nukes until Marksman's Wager recharges again. Which is when I repeat the process.

This allows me to re-use multiple times that burst firepower of an elementalist (I prefer Air) that is supposed to be limited by the large but slow to rebuild energy pool. Usually, it only takes 2 uses of Marksman's Wager for the battle to have been decided.

While not as powerful as ether renewal, it's safe from enchantement removals.

Also, ironically, this character build grew out of an Elementalist Ranger that was mainly a Ranger who used the massive energy capacity to sustain Tiger's Fury (not affected by Expertise). Tiger's Fury + Read the Wind + Conjure Flame + Dual Shot = PAIN. You're doing 150% of normal arrow damage (~15 damage to a warrior armor) + each arrow does 25 damage.
When you interchange Dual Shot and Power Shot (while stil enchanted with Read the Wind and Conjure Flame), you end up doing 65+ damage every second and a half. It's basically the Guild Wars version of the Speedazon. Extremely effective.

But I wanted to see if Marksman's Wager could help bring an Elementalist up to the same damage output as that Ranger, and boy it did.


...


Method 2:
Elementalist/Mesmer

=Skillset=
Arcane Echo
Ether Renewal (ER)
Lightning Orb (LO)
Flare
Aura of Restoration
Air attunment
Blinding Flash (anti Warrior/Ranger defense)
Enervating Charge (anti Warrior/Ranger defense)


I cast my enchantements (Aura of Restoration, Air attunment, Ether Renewal) just as I see the enemy team incoming. When combat is about to begin, I target the closes enemy Monk. Then I cast Arcane Echo, then cast Ether Renewal. I then open up on the monk with Lightning Orb, spending 10 energy, gaining back 9 from Ether Renewal. I then spam Flare while LO recharges, which is free, since ER returns more energy than I spend with Flare. I repeat this until ER wears off. Then I cast my echoed ER and start the damage output all over again.

This allows me to basically always be at near maximum energy, so that if my enchantements get stripped, I can stil continue outputting damage until they can be recast. At which point I start spamming Flare non stop until I refill my energy back to the top.

The damage output (especially from LO) is such that unless the Monk is BIPed by a Necromancer, he's not going to live for very long.

I invest 8 into Energy Storage with that build (I need both fire and Air strong). I don't technically NEED it, as I could do the same thing with 40 energy (it doesn't really go down). The extra energy (24) is there as a safety net, incase my enchantements get removed.

(Speaking of the Warrior defense - I loved it when warriors would come at me, but be unable to hit me OR do much damage when they did manage a hit. I'd usually just heal up whatever they'd manage to do with Aura of Restoration, while I kill 'em with Flare and LO, although usually they ran away before I could finish them off :(. Some smart Warrior/Necromancers used plague touch on me, but blindness does nothing to an Elementalist of my sort, and neither does weakness. I'd just reapplied both on them :) . The key, though, was to get them blinded -before- they closed into melee range, otherwise disrupting chop/knockdown can be a problem)

...

I've also played around with an Elementalist/Mesmer using Mantra of Recall, but the need to have another stance to cancel Mantra of Recall (and so get it's energy) put this combo as my 3rd choice for "nearly unlimited energy" builds.



But ... nevermind.

Your mind is made up. My PvP experience obviously does not matter. So there's no reason to continue the conversation. I mainly posted the above info for the benefit of others.

[Swiss Mercenary]

You have still failed to explain what you would do if someone, heavens forbit, stripped you off enchantments? Or applied a skill like Spirit Shackles to your E/Ranger?

The point is, Soul Reaping provides a similar (But obviously lesser) benefit, since its.. An uncounterable passive. And, please, stop diverting the issue into saying how your skills can emulate the effect - we're comparing primary attributes, for <insert diety here>'s sake.

So far, I still don't see how Energy Storage has provided such an exceptional benefit, beyond the initial burst of 30 mana - you say that Wager recharges ~40 energy, while Ether Lord keeps your bar completely full.

[TriggerHappy]

You have still failed to explain what you would do if someone, heavens forbit, stripped you off enchantments?

I continue to fight. That's the entire reason for the extra energy pool to exist. So I can continue to fight until my enchantements can be recast. As I explained in the previous post, it's a safety net.

Or applied a skill like Spirit Shackles to your E/Ranger?

Hehe, had that done to me a few times. Marksman's Wager cancels it out (5 lost, 5 gained) on my El/Ra, and on my Ra/Ele I continue to gain energy, since each shot returned more than shackles took away (Dec weekend, when Wager got improved).
But what I'd usually do is just not use a bow for the few seconds it takes me ask a friendly monk (over comms) to remove the hex from me. I kept casting spells, which aren't affected by spirit shackles.

The point is, Soul Reaping provides a similar (But obviously lesser) benefit, since its.. An uncounterable passive. And, please, stop diverting the issue into saying how your skills can emulate the effect - we're comparing primary attributes, for <insert diety here>'s sake.

No, the point here is that Soul Reaping provides nowhere CLOSE to the options that Energy Storage or Expertise do. What is more useful?

Elementalist/Ranger vs Necromancer/Ranger

Elementalist/Mesmer vs Necromancer/Elementalist

Ranger/Mesmer vs Necro/Ranger

All of those combinations on the left provide much better energy recovery/management options than a Necromancer Primary with his Soul Reaping. And they do so without investing attribute points into a superfluous, uncontrollable and highly situational passive effect.

Why take a Necro Primary and invest into Soul Reaping and get no other benefit from it than the passive bonus, instead of taking a Mesmer primary OR Secondary, investing into Inspiration Magic and being able to use Mantra of Recall? Investing in Inspiration Magic also allows one to use skills like: Spirit Shackles, Energy Tap, Ether Feast, Power Drain and Spirit of Failure. What does investing in Soul Reaping do for you again ..?

Why chose a Necro Primary over an Elementalist primary, when you got twice the energy pool and multitudes of options to refill it?

It's no wonder there are thousands of threads asking for improvement to Soul Reaping usage for PvP. Thousands of posts coming to conclusions that the Necro primary is pretty much THE worst primary profession in Guild Wars. It's because they're right. We are not comparing primary attributes here. We're comparing energy recovery options. Which is what Soul Reaping is, an energy recovery option. There is no comparison between Sould Reaping in that role and Inspiration Magic/Marksman's Wager/Energy Storage+Ether Feast.

That was the reason for disagreement in my first post. That there are much better options to recover energy than taking a primary Necromancer and investing into Soul Reaping. I couldn't care less if it seems like the perfect primary attribute on paper. Nothing in Guild Wars works in a vacuum.

So far, I still don't see how Energy Storage has provided such an exceptional benefit, beyond the initial burst of 30 mana

That's unfortunate, I've explained it several times now. Energy Storage provides a higher energy capacity that can be re-used multiple times with the right combinations of skills. An character combination that relies heavily on energy usage has it's damage output increased by as many times as he can refill that energy pool during a fight.
Spend 60 energy on spells? Now refill them and spend it again. Refill it and spend it yet again. The D2 analogy would be having to rely on natural mana regeneration before starting to unload your high damage/high mana cost spells versus drinking a mana potion and doing same alot faster.

- you say that Wager recharges ~40 energy, while Ether Lord keeps your bar completely full.

*cough* Keeps it completely full ... after fully draining it you mean?

Ether Lord
Description: You lose all energy. For 5-9 seconds, target foe suffers energy degeneration of 1-3, and you experience energy regeneration of 1-3.
Energy Cost: 10
Activation Time: 2 Seconds.
Recharge Time: 20 Seconds.
Linked Attribute: Inspiration Magic. Increases duration and energy degeneration/regeneration.
Skill Type: Hex Spell.

I'm sorry, why would I want to lose 60-70 energy just to get 175% energy regeneration for all of 9 seconds (woohoo?)? There are alot faster ways to restore one's energy supply without loosing all energy to begin with. Mantra of Recall is a MUCH better way, if you're insistent on using a Mesmer's energy recovery skills.

[Swiss Mercenary]

Bah!

Exchange Ether Lord with Ether Renewal.

I'll comment more later.

[Drasca]

/me opens a jar of cookies
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Thanks for the cookies! Yes, I stole a cookie from the cookie jar.

Triggerhappy's main point is that Energy Storage should not be dismissed as greatly inferior just because soul reaping seems so strong, because TH has found a way to use Energy storage to great effect--far more than face value.

Here, I disagree with SM. Energy storage has extreme uses and strengths, more than enough to justify investment in comparison to soul reaping. I also disagree on how effective interrupts can be, especially when a caster is caught *always* casting from a singlular position.

If constantly using skills/casting, then the interrupt doesn't have to catch the current skill being prepared, but any skill it catches at the end of the interrupt's cast time would count. I've begun gone over Monk skills. Hex removing should be candy to the enemy monk team, but this is not always the case--especially in the heat of battle. Better monks will be able to remove it faster, but everyone who's stressed or caught off guard will be taken down.

Its just not getting through to SM's head... but definitely helping others. Especially me. Thanks TriggerHappy! Very enlightening. I knew about Marksman's wager + EStorage, but exactly which enchants to use with that +energy gain skill rocks. Time for me to look up mantra of recall too.

... Energy when mantra of recall ends. I never thought changing stances would count! Mantra of recall + Mantra of distortion (or any stance, escape artist stances come to mind). Oh boy! Thank you Triggerhappy!

[Wyrm]

I can understand where [I think] Swiss Mercenary's argument is coming from. If you were to strip all skills away from the characters, Soul Reaping will provide you with the ability to gain mana aside from regeneration whereas Energy Storage only allows for the capacity to hold more mana. The fact that there are skills that can allow for alternate methods of insta-mana is irrelevant since the topic is (or was) about comparing the various primary [only] skills without looking at the usage of skills to enhance or support them.

On a personal level, I would probably prefer Soul Reaping, at least in PvE. It has been my experience that once you get to any area with Mesmers & co. that enchantments will be stripped off before your allies can drain their energy and kill them. Granted that's not as much of an issue for casters who get to stay a (relatively) nice distance away from the bad guys.

In PvP/GvG the added energy at the getgo would (to me) be more beneficial since it would help against other players who are probably going to be draining your energy reserves. The added max to energy would allow you to get an extra spell or two off before energy conservation and replenishment starts to be come an issue. Of course I'll have to actually try PvP at some point before I can actually comment on it without delving into hypotheticals...

[TriggerHappy]

You are quite welcome :) .

How did things work out for everyone during the February weekend?

[Falomin]

Hello All,

I was just reading up on Guild Wars and decided to check if any of the Lurkers were interested in the game as well. A quick search later and I found the answer to be a resounding "Yes!"

I just have a few questions regarding how it plays, this of course is directed to those who have played the beta:

Is it more actiony like Diablo II? Slower paced but actiony like Diablo I? Or very slow like WoW?

Do you gain levels only until level 20 then find newer items? Do you gain levels fast like in Diablo II?

Is it fun? Not interesting, not a fresh idea, but fun?

One last one, is it a click fest or do you watch the game play itself like Dungeon Siege?

Thanks in advance for you answers.

Falomin

[Swiss Mercenary]

Its actiony. Fast-paced (But not twitch-gameplay, unless you want to use spell interrupters).

You gain levels until 20, after that, you only find new items, or acquire new skills (Of which you can only bring 8 at a time to a battle).

Quite fun.

It's not a click fest (Thank god for auto-attack), but it's not a "Watch the game play out." Which skills to use at which time, and at which target plays a huge role - simply spamming an attack or an attack spell (See Diablo 2) will result in a very quick and gruesome death. As the game progresses, special tactics are required more often, to get by some (otherwise nearly unbeatable) fights.

I think that combat should be best compared to a fully real-time Baldur's Gate, where you only worry about you character (With oviously, Diabloesque life, mana, mana regeneration, and WoWesque 5-60 second cooldowns on many skills).

But one thing I can guarantee you, is that you won't be sitting there, holding down a single attack skill :P.