PvP rewards preview

[stabby]

http://wow-europe.com/en/pvp/pvp-article-part2.html

This has me drooling in anticipation. Can't wait for it to get patched in.

[Alrin]

.... schweeeeetnesssssshhh ....

Outstanding. It is really encouraging to actually see some real practical use of the honor system. The only thing I see that could be a small annoyance is alot of people could organize honor-kill farming.

Have 1 team on alliance side of 10 people, 1 team on horde side of 10 people.

Abuse:
Have team 1 kill team 2.
Earn Honor points.
Team 2 returns and kills Team 1.
Earn Honor points.
Team 1 & 2 Go buy honor reward items.
GOTO Abuse

Let's hope they give diminishing returns if you kill the same person over and over.
Say, 2nd kill is 40% then 3rd kill is 10% and 4th kill is +-0%.
And have the system track your kills sat ~50 kills back in history.

That would keep exploiters away, forcing them to fight properly to gain honor.

Good read though, looks amazing :)

-Al

[Kevin]

.Let's hope they give diminishing returns if you kill the same person over and over.
Say, 2nd kill is 40% then 3rd kill is 10% and 4th kill is +-0%.
And have the system track your kills sat ~50 kills back in history.

That would keep exploiters away, forcing them to fight properly to gain honor.

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You'll gain full points for your first kill, but you get far less points with each kill after that, to the point were you will eventually get zero if you continue to prey on that player.

Another thing to note is that dishonor doesn't mean anything. They are tracking it, but doing nothing with it.

As it stands now, when you accrue a Dishonorable Kill, it will not have a negative impact on your current honor ranking. You'll still get to see what the system considers a Dishonorable Kill, but you won't be assessed a penalty for it

I haven't read through the PvP rankings section yet, I'll come back if that makes any real difference. But while this looks to help, and I do have some liking for the idea of reward the good, ignore the bad (which is what this is doing right now). I'm hoping this can get some good testing in before implementation. As it stands it does nothing to prevent ganking. Which may not be a horrible thing. It just rewards you for fighting similar levels. I guess the theory is a ganker will be a ganker no matter what but you might get some of the borderline people to avoid ganking in their PvP fights. Doing it this way also means that if a low level player pesters a high level the high level doesn't get penalized either since dishonor doesn't apply to other players at all. It should also encourage more PvP battling, which I actually think is a good thing.

[Malakar]

I don't think this system will make much difference.

There are 3 things wrong with PVP in WOW. Levels, numbers, and mobs. Each presents a lame tactic for ganking. Gank lower levels. Gang bang someone. Attack someone while they're weak fighting a mob.

This system will simply shift some of the focus from levels to numbers and mobs. Overall, it may actually increase ganking due to the rewards.

[Rinnhart]

I don't think this system will make much difference.

There are 3 things wrong with PVP in WOW. Levels, numbers, and mobs. Each presents a lame tactic for ganking. Gank lower levels. Gang bang someone. Attack someone while they're weak fighting a mob.

This system will simply shift some of the focus from levels to numbers and mobs. Overall, it may actually increase ganking due to the rewards.
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No, it WILL increase ganking. Crap, I'm going to start hanging out in Felwood and Western Plague Lands more often.

[savaughn]

Totally disagree. There is a lot more encouragement to participating in PVP. But there is massive discouragement to griefing. I'm not using the word gank because folks disagree on the definition. Yes, you might get killed once, maybe even a second time. Any serious PvP'er is going to leave you alone at this point, though. And you can cherry pick that PvP'er and get full points for THEM.

This also gives you a significant advantage if you typically quest in pairs, let alone full parties.

More specifically, GW is attempting to turn this from a game where a couple of thugs roam the countryside griefing into a full out war. That's why I joined the PvP server in the first place! Bring it! :lol:

[Kevin]

No, it WILL increase ganking. Crap, I'm going to start hanging out in Felwood and Western Plague Lands more often.
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The other thing to keep in mind is that they are tracking dishonor. They will have actual numbers to see how often high levels are smacking around low levels and then they will have clear evidence to be able to do something about it.

It's not a bad idea. It's a pretty sound psychological principal that you reward good behavior ot encourage more of it and ignore bad behavior to extinguish it. You only punish when the act is severe. Now the big flaw is that the people who enjoy lowbie sniping and corpse camping are going to get their reward outside of the game mechanics. But you aren't going to stop people who want to grief from griefing, same as you really can't legislate morality.

However if you are repeatedly griefered by someone and you report them for harassment (the way Blizzard seems to want to police things like this though they don't have the staff to do it right) and the GM can see that the reported player has 15 times the dishonorable kills than honorable kills you have a lot stronger case.

I'm not saying it will work, but at least you have data now.

I'm assuming you are thinking there will be more griefing of the type where a group of L30's comes and kills a solo L25-30 (insert whatever level range you want here) player so that group can get more honor points. Could be, and on a PvP server I don't see anything wrong with that. That can't be done on a PvE server though so you are still safe from that. And if they camp you they get less and then none so they have some reward incentive to move on after one hit. Being killed once like that is generally not griefing in most peoples books.

There will probably be more killing of NPC's on all types of servers. That can be considered griefing, of course NPC respawns are also faster in the patch so that addresses some of that.

As for someone killing you while you are fighint a mob. Can't happen on a PvE server unless you let it happen. On PvP, it's part of the part and parcel and now when you come back and hunt the killer down you get a reward for it. But yeah, I see no discouragement for that type of behavior, though I'm not sure there should be. Of course if they base the amount of honor you get on the damage you do, and share the rest with the mob the reward for doing this isn't so high. If they start fighting you at 20% of your health and only do 10% of the total damage they only get 10% of the honor points. Sure the fight is tougher for you, or impossible but if the keep the reward low for that you can apply the reward and ignore to it again.

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just wanting to see why you think this will increase griefing. I'd elaborate a bit more on some points as well, but my lunch break is over, I'll get back to it.

[Bolty]

So wait a minute - this applies to PvP AND PvE servers?

If so, I'm laughing. Once again the only major difference between the two will be the ganking while leveling to 60. Once at 60, the bored players will be PvP'ing it up every night.

I don't think this kind of system should be on a PvE server for obvious reasons. Consensual PvP doesn't fit the "warfare" mentality this PvP system is trying to create. But I won't complain if they put it in, for it'll give me something more to do at 60 than Battlegrounds, plus I get the added benefit of no griefing on my way up to 60.

And when that level 60 Horde Warrior challenges my 55 Priest to a fight and I whoop his butt again, I'll actually GET something for it. :)

-Bolty

[savaughn]

So wait a minute - this applies to PvP AND PvE servers?
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But that's the thing. This thing is internally balanced. In a PvE environment, you suddenly have massive reason to actually go raid the Undercity and take out all the guards - they all count towards your player count. Since the number of PvP deaths will be so radically reduced on a PvE server, consistently smacking opposing cities will be critical. Doing this will also substantially increase the need to defend these areas since you can pick up PvP points while the opponents are fighting the guards, while still keeping the griefing levels minimal (once you've killed that guard three times, it's time to get the heck out of dodge since you aren't getting any more points for it). I think the dynamics here are complex and intriguing.

That said, I'm staying on the PvP servers. :lol:

[Kevin]

So wait a minute - this applies to PvP AND PvE servers?

If so, I'm laughing.  Once again the only major difference between the two will be the ganking while leveling to 60.  Once at 60, the bored players will be PvP'ing it up every night.

I don't think this kind of system should be on a PvE server for obvious reasons.  Consensual PvP doesn't fit the "warfare" mentality this PvP system is trying to create.  But I won't complain if they put it in, for it'll give me something more to do at 60 than Battlegrounds, plus I get the added benefit of no griefing on my way up to 60.

And when that level 60 Horde Warrior challenges my 55 Priest to a fight and I whoop his butt again, I'll actually GET something for it.  :)

-Bolty
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Actually putting it on PvE makes sense. They are trying to encourage more "War". It also makes sense in that this is probably going to be a fairly tight integration into the code and why maintian two code bases (right now the only real difference is when the PvP flag gets turned on for characters)? It also will help encourage more battleground participation.

But as I've said elsewhere, I think I understand Blizzard's theory on how it might cut down on griefing. I'm not convinced it will, but I'm very interesting in seeing if it does.


Of course I think a good way to encourage more PvP would be make a more robust crafting system. If players crafting skills could be used towards creating/repairing structures, I think you would see more PvP. Wouldn't you love to be able to attack the Crossroads and actually damage the walls and buildings? Sure would require a lot of changes to the code as you would need more dynamic structures along with the crafting skills, but one of the best things in the Horizons (too bad it had so many other problems) beta was getting involved in working on the tunnels to free the subjagated races. You had people fighting to defend supply lines and the crafters and they worked on the structures. It was fun. You of course could also have some more use for destructive type crafting too. But you could do a lot of fun stuff with mroe robust crafting. Too bad Blizzard only embraced combat and added crafting on as "something that should be in an MMO". I'm just wanting even more avenues for entertainment. Hopefully if the Battlegrounds work well they might start putting more of this in.

[Malakar]

The other thing to keep in mind is that they are tracking dishonor.  They will have actual numbers to see how often high levels are smacking around low levels and then they will have clear evidence to be able to do something about it.

I thought they said they were only tracking "dishonorable" kills of NPCs.

It's a pretty sound psychological principal that you reward good behavior ot encourage more of it ...

Yes that'd be great if it rewarded good behavior, rather than providing additional incentives to use lame tactics not encompassed by the system.

But you aren't going to stop people who want to grief from griefing ...

Indeed. But it would be nice if there were some reasonable limits, such as a temporary ressurection sickness type state applied from numerous gray kills in a short period of time.

I'm assuming you are thinking there will be more griefing of the type where a group of L30's comes and kills a solo L25-30 (insert whatever level range you want here) player so that group can get more honor points.  Could be, and on a PvP server I don't see anything wrong with that.

Not against the rules, no. But shouldn't an "honor" system try to encourage fair fights? That's what it seems like they're trying to do with it anyway. Just pointing out that it could backlash.

And if they camp you they get less and then none so they have some reward incentive to move on after one hit.  Being killed once like that is generally not griefing in most peoples books.

True, but I wouldn't want to be killed once by 50 different groups trying to get their PVP rewards either.

Of course if they base the amount of honor you get on the damage you do, and share the rest with the mob the reward for doing this isn't so high.

I'd hope they design it like that, but I didn't see anything in their preview to suggest that they've not overlooked mobs. Let's hope it was an oversight on the writer's part and not on the design team's.


One more thing. A lot of players are going to see the message "You've gained an honorable kill!" when they just got barely any honor points, and consider it just as good as getting full credit because they don't know any better.

[Malakar]

... consistently smacking opposing cities will be critical.

Lag... Boom! Crash...

[neeljwala]

One thing I see as an interesting tactic is with hunters and feign death on PvE realms. Specifically, the fact that Feign Death lasts 6 minutes, while the PvP flag lasts only 5 is the underlying issue. For example:

- Visit Tarren Mill
- Kill a few level 55 guards (they're not too hard if you keep it to 1 or 2 at a time)
- the moment anyone notices, or you believe it's been long enough, find a somewhat hidden spot under a bush and feign death. Don't forget to dismiss your pet.
- walk away for 5 minutes
- rinse and repeat

Unless a whole bunch of people begin doing this, it won't be too difficult to trick any backup coming to assist into thinking you've run off or died. Once you stand up again they will be unable to attack you, as your PvP flag is no longer up. You can resume killing guards at any opportune moment once the backup disperses.

Essentially, this is unlimited PvP reward with little danger besides the odd resisted feign death in a bad situation. It doesn't have to be Tarren Mill, pick any opposing faction outpost with level 50+ guards and a level 60 hunter is set.

Neeljwala

[Artega]

If you mouse over a feigned hunter, the icon turns into the KILL ME! sword icon. It's a dead giveaway, no pun intended.

Indeed. But it would be nice if there were some reasonable limits, such as a temporary ressurection sickness type state applied from numerous gray kills in a short period of time.

A group of Lv.30's zergs a Lv.60 mage. The mage is ?? to them (an honorable kill, right?), and the Lv.30's are gray to the mage. If they mage fights back, he gets penalized for it. If he doesn't, he'll die.

I'm going to assume you're a PvE player, where this sort of scenario isn't a very common sight.

[Kevin]

If you mouse over a feigned hunter, the icon turns into the KILL ME! sword icon.  It's a dead giveaway, no pun intended.
A group of Lv.30's zergs a Lv.60 mage.  The mage is ?? to them (an honorable kill, right?), and the Lv.30's are gray to the mage.  If they mage fights back, he gets penalized for it.  If he doesn't, he'll die.

I'm going to assume you're a PvE player, where this sort of scenario isn't a very common sight.
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Yep, that is one of the big abuse problems with dishonor and one of the other reasons I think they left it out. One possible way around it is that you would not get dishonor if you defended yourself against a grey. If they track the first attack you should be alright with using dishonor to do some kind of penalty because those situations wouldn't create dishonor. Zerging higher levels is not something that will be discouraged at all by the current system either (it's something that could very well increase) and is another potential grief point. So yeah, I wouldn't want to see any dishonor for the person defending against that.

Again, I'm looking forward to see how it works out. While most of my time is spent on PvE, I still really enjoy my time on the PvP server when I'm in the right frame of mind, which is what I figured from the start of things.

[neeljwala]

If you mouse over a feigned hunter, the icon turns into the KILL ME! sword icon.  It's a dead giveaway, no pun intended.

This I did not know. Thanks for the heads up. Hopefully, hiding my body under a bush will help.

Neeljwala

[Kevin]

I thought they said they were only tracking "dishonorable" kills of NPCs.

I may have misinterpreted then. I hope they are tracking the PvP ones.

Yes that'd be great if it rewarded good behavior, rather than providing additional incentives to use lame tactics not encompassed by the system.

Yeah, I'm not sure it will work, and there are still problems, but it just feels like that might be their intent.

But you aren't going to stop people who want to grief from griefing ...

Indeed. But it would be nice if there were some reasonable limits, such as a temporary ressurection sickness type state applied from numerous gray kills in a short period of time.

Yeah, and this is why I hope they pay attention to the data they are collecting. They did say they would consider penalties in the future if they thought it was necessary. What that means is of course is anyones guess.

I'm assuming you are thinking there will be more griefing of the type where a group of L30's comes and kills a solo L25-30 (insert whatever level range you want here) player so that group can get more honor points.  Could be, and on a PvP server I don't see anything wrong with that.

Not against the rules, no. But shouldn't an "honor" system try to encourage fair fights? That's what it seems like they're trying to do with it anyway. Just pointing out that it could backlash.

Yeah, this one is a bit tricky. It encourages more grouping for quests, just being a duo cuts down on a lot of this type of thing right now, though that could very well get over-ridden. This is another one where relying on people realizing that they get less honor for the kill since it gets split around the group doesn't help either.

True, but I wouldn't want to be killed once by 50 different groups trying to get their PVP rewards either.

Yar. Of course if you are in an area that has that many of the opposing faction without much or your faction in the area it's time to move on to somewhere else. That's how things are now and I'm not sure you can really change that. If the Horde controls a questing area the Alliance needs to fight back for it, or forget it for a time. If the 50 kills are space out over 50 hours of play time, then I don't think I'd care.

I'd hope they design it like that, but I didn't see anything in their preview to suggest that they've not overlooked mobs. Let's hope it was an oversight on the writer's part and not on the design team's.

One more thing. A lot of players are going to see the message "You've gained an honorable kill!" when they just got barely any honor points, and consider it just as good as getting full credit because they don't know any better.

Yeah, that was my assumption as well. I'm hoping they designed it that way, and yeah, relying on the average WoW players knowledge to hope things get better is a very risky propostion.


I do think though that griefing will go down, or at least what I consider griefing. Then again things might not chage at all, or they could get a lot worse. I'll just have to wait and see.

[Bob the Beholder]

Sooo... I pvp a lot, kill a lot of enemies, massively 'pwnzor,' and get some cool items.

... but then I go play Baldur's Gate II for a week, log back on, and see that my rank dropped and I can't use any of my cool items.

Which might as well be a non-factor for people who keep playing and playing and playing and playing and playing and playing and playing and playing and playing and playing and playing forever.

But I get and play new games, go to work, read books, go do other things, etc. for a good chunk of my time. I was under the impression that Blizzard was trying to lessen the penalties on casual gamers.

Summary: Rank requirement not cool. If you have the item, then you have reached that pinnacle and ought to be able to reap the rewards without trolling for fights for most of your play time.

[Tharn]

A group of Lv.30's zergs a Lv.60 mage.  The mage is ?? to them (an honorable kill, right?), and the Lv.30's are gray to the mage.  If they mage fights back, he gets penalized for it.  If he doesn't, he'll die.

I'm going to assume you're a PvE player, where this sort of scenario isn't a very common sight.
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People do not receive dishonor points for killing other players. The system pretty much indicates that if you're grayganking, you're wasting your time.

The mage would cast a few IAEs or FN/CoC and the 30ies would have a nice corpse run.

Edit: Toned down some wording.

[Tharn]

Of course if they base the amount of honor you get on the damage you do, and share the rest with the mob the reward for doing this isn't so high.  If they start fighting you at 20% of your health and only do 10% of the total damage they only get 10% of the honor points.  Sure the fight is tougher for you, or impossible but if the keep the reward low for that you can apply the reward and ignore to it again.[right][snapback]70139[/snapback][/right]

I think I have a good answer for you:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...&tmp=1#blizzard
:)