Video Card and RAM Upgrades

[jahcs]

Warning: The computer is a (uggghhh!) Gateway.

System:
x86 Family 15 Model 2 Stepping 7 GenuineIntel ~2386 Mhz, not overclocked
512MB RDRAM PC800
NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440 (Gateway) 128MB
Creative SB Audigy Sound Card
GTW V.92 Voicemodem
MAT#$%&A DVD-ROM SR-8588
LITE-ON LTR-48246S CD R/W
Maxtor 6Y060L0 60GB HD
Windows XP Home with service pack 2
Gateway Tower Case
NEC MultiSync FP 1350x 22 inch monitor (woohoo!)
250w power supply.

I use my computer mostly for gaming and internet. I like to have multiple windows and programs running at the same time.

I am looking to upgrade my video card and possibly the RAM. Total budget $400-$500 US funds.

I'll start with the RAM. I have PC800 2x256MB RDRAM and 2 of those "placeholder modules" on my mother board. I do not know if I have ECC memory at this time (I'll check later tonight). I am thinking about upgrading to 1GB by adding 2 more sticks of 256MB. Are there recomended brands or suppliers. Corsair and NewEgg seem to be names repeated often. What about Kingston and Tigerdirect or the Computer Memory Store?

For upgrading the RAM should I spend some money on the RAM and some on a video card or put all my funds into a video card?

As far as video cards go I have used some Google-Fu but the more I search the less I know. I do not wish to move into the realm of overclocking. I see ATI and NVidia, 128MB and 256MB cards. I think my video card is a bit of a choke point for my system. Most of the games I play are at the lowest or second lowest detail and resolution settings. Also, for major components like this, brand name and manufacturer support (like driver updates) are important to me.

For features it would be nice to be able to receive HDTV signals and capture video but it is not required. About 2 years from now (if things go according to plan) I would like to build my own computer and if the video card could be used in that build it would be a nice way to save a few bucks. With the ways motherboards and interfaces are changing I know that may not be possible. Dual monitor support is not a priority.

I also have some concerns with my 250w power supply. Would a competent video card be too much for it?

Thanks,
jahcs

edit: System specs updated.
addendum: Apparently the forum language filter will not allow me to input the manufacturer's name for my DVD drive correctly.

[Roland]

Short:
nVidia GeForce 6800 ($300) or nVidia GeForce 6800 GT ($400)
2x 256MB PC800 RDRAM ($250)

There's your $500 - $600. I'd go for the higher video card, but the choice is yours. It's worth the extra dough, though. Very much so.

Long:
RDRAM? My God man... talk about outdated. :P Do you list to 8-tracks, too? :P Well, short of a Motherboard (maybe CPU too) and RAM changeover, you can look in this thread for some answers.

[Yrrek]

Your RAM upgrade for one stick will probably cost around $200. RDRAM = EXPENSIVE! Also, with only $400, you can't do much video card/RDRAM wise, but that PSU you can upgrade to a decent 350W-400W for ~$70.
Newegg.com


Also check out Toms Hardware:
Which is found here

And finally:
Pricewatch

EDIT: Most any new video card will use a larger PSU. Also for the RAM issue, if it is gaming, 512 is usually fine, so the video card alone should fix it. I just spent $500 on this card:
Ati Radeon X800 XT
Very expensive, but also will last you a long time.

[Wyrm]

if you don't plan on playing Doom 3 or Half-Life 2 you can look for a ti 4600 that can still run just about every other game on the market. Just about every one of those had VIVO on it, but no HDTV.

If you're only going to spend $400 total, then I'd go with a 6600 instead of the 6800. Cheaper and not really all that much slower.

[Roland]

if you don't plan on playing Doom 3 or Half-Life 2 you can look for a ti 4600 that can still run just about every other game on the market.  Just about every one of those had VIVO on it, but no HDTV.

If you're only going to spend $400 total, then I'd go with a 6600 instead of the 6800.  Cheaper and not really all that much slower.
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ACK! For the money, you could get a current-gen card that's 100x better than that old dinosaur. Please, save your money if you're going to WASTE it on something as dated as a 4600. Utter waste of money.

As for the 6600, it's considerably slower than any of the 6800 series - just not so much as to make it not worth the money. It IS worth the money, it's just that for a bit more you could get something worth more.

[jahcs]

Thanks for all the info. I was pretty lost in the video card department.

On the video cards I would lean toward the nVidia GeForce 6800 GT. Another card mentioned was the Ati Radeon X800 XT. I noticed the 6800 supports 4x/8x AGP while the X800 is 8x AGP only. Where do I find out which one my computer has? Or am I looking at something that doesn't matter?

A larger power supply looks to be mandatory for these cards. NewEgg recomends at least a 350W. Should I get a 400W or even 500W? Again, being able to put the supply in a future build would be nice so I'm thinking bigger may be better. What about heat build up?

More to follow, Got to Go. :blush:

[Yrrek]

On the video cards I would lean toward the  nVidia GeForce 6800 GT.  Another card mentioned was the Ati Radeon X800 XT.  I noticed the 6800 supports 4x/8x AGP while the X800 is 8x AGP only.  Where do I find out which one my computer has?  Or am I looking at something that doesn't matter?
[right][snapback]68882[/snapback][/right]

Great program, this will give you a complete detailing of all the hardware and most of the software in your computer. Also does benchmarks! =D

Everest

[Nystul]

6800 GT is a heck of a nice card... rather pricey though! I think it is overkill right now, but within a year I imagine some games could give it a run for the money on the highest settings. Ditto on most of that for the Radeon.

If I'm not mistaken, these cards draw heavily on the 12V rail, so if you are looking at power supply specs that is one to pay to attention to. If you do go for one of these top end video cards, the power supply upgrade may very well be a necessity.

It's hard to tell how many mobos will still be supporting AGP in 2 years. Who's got the magic 8 ball? Intel seems to be forcing PCI-E forward pretty quickly, but on the AMD side the PCI-E mobos are just starting to come out in the last month or two.

[Roland]

Thanks for all the info.  I was pretty lost in the video card department.

On the video cards I would lean toward the  nVidia GeForce 6800 GT.  Another card mentioned was the Ati Radeon X800 XT.  I noticed the 6800 supports 4x/8x AGP while the X800 is 8x AGP only.  Where do I find out which one my computer has?  Or am I looking at something that doesn't matter?

A larger power supply looks to be mandatory for these cards.  NewEgg recomends at least a 350W.  Should I get a 400W or even 500W?  Again, being able to put the supply in a future build would be nice so I'm thinking bigger may be better.  What about heat build up?

More to follow, Got to Go. :blush:
[right][snapback]68882[/snapback][/right]

Well, that's a tricky one. Your mobo probably is CURRENTLY running 2x AGP (I don't think that old MX ran on 4x). As such, you probably max out at 4x on your mobo. Short of a mobo upgrade, you'll need a card that can run at 4x (most all cards these days run, or want to, at 8x, but 4x is possible on a lot of them). You'll lose out on some speed by running at 4x over 8x, but at least it WILL run. Go for the 6800 GT if you can afford it, as it's a very nice card, especially the Leadtek. :)

As for a power supply, I'm AMAZED you can support what you have on a 250 as it is. I ran a 350 in my current box for a long time, before one day it blew up (I'm guessing due to overload). I replaced it with a 450 or 480, I forget which, which allowed me the ability to add more powerful components in the future, should I choose. I would go with the 400, but if you can really afford it, go for a 500.

Check out these:
Zalman
Antec
Enermax

Personally, I'd go with the Zalman, as it's supposed to be very quiet. Efficiency (anything above 70% is great), noise level (anything below 30dB is great), and total power output are the key factors to look for.

Also, check out this guide:
Tom's Hardware Guide

It has some very useful information about the new standard for power supplies.

[jahcs]

Using the Everest program (thanks Yrrek) it shows my mobo is AGP 4x.
It also shows ECC is supported but not enabled for the RAM. Not that I'm looking to swap over to ECC RAM but is it any better?

If I get the high end video card and not the RAM will my system choke? I know that card can outrun my system easily already.

Nystul brings up a good point. How much better is PCI Express for the interface than AGP? Would you recommend I wait to purchase a video card until I build a system from the ground up to take advantage of PCI? I know we can't predict the future but will AGP be supported on anything but bargain bin motherboards in a few years?

My power supply seems to be very stable with what I power:
mobo, cpu, and expansion cards
CPU fan (using Everest it shows 35 deg. C at the processor after 4 hours of moderate use.)
1 case fan
hard drive
usually only running one optical drive at a time, sometimes 2
keyboard
usb optical mouse
usb headset
usb joystick
The MX 440 does not have a fan or any power cables running to it that I noticed. It appears to be drawing power directly from the mobo. (Also on Everest I noticed it has 2 pipelines - laughed when I saw that, 6800GT has 16) I can send more detailed info on my power supply if you like. I would never trust it with a new video card or more fans though.

For only having one case fan in the front of the case, one power supply fan, and the CPU fan I am happy with the current noise level and pleasantly suprised by the temperature of my CPU. I do not have neon, LEDs, or other bling on my computer. From what I've heard dust and heat are the 2 biggest killers of electronics. I clean out my case about every 6-8 months. Would you suggest another case fan on the back to help pull air through the case if I upgrade?

Again thanks to everyone for your input.

EDIT: PCI Express article It looks like if I upgrade my hardware will either be useless in a few years or the new stuff will still have not completely caught on for mainstream use.

[Roland]

Using the Everest program (thanks Yrrek) it shows my mobo is AGP 4x.
It also shows ECC is supported but not enabled for the RAM. Not that I'm looking to swap over to ECC RAM but is it any better?

Only for servers, and people who absolutely need error-free working environments. In other words, no. Stick with what you have. It's bad enough you have RDRAM, don't complicate things by getting ECC too. :P

If I get the high end video card and not the RAM will my system choke? I know that card can outrun my system easily already.

Not at all. The card will hit a cieling with your CPU, much like mine has, but there's nothing you can do about that. Due to that, you may want to just opt for the 6800, and spend the extra dough on a good power supply. You WILL need a new one if you add on a new video card, or much of anything else (including more RAM).

Nystul brings up a good point. How much better is PCI Express for the interface than AGP? Would you recommend I wait to purchase a video card until I build a system from the ground up to take advantage of PCI? I know we can't predict the future but will AGP be supported on anything but bargain bin motherboards in a few years?

For the time being? Hardly any difference at all. Chances are, AGP will be around for another year or so reliably, despite Intel's efforts to force it out. Intel 865 / 875 chipsets are still VERY popular, and motherboards now have these chipsets for LGA 775 (the newest Intel chip socket), thus giving you the latest CPUs without forcing you to give up your old RAM and video card. This is exactly what I'm doing right now - slowly upgrading my vastly outdated system with some inexpensive but powerful components (new aluminum case for expansion and cooling, new video card is already in place, new motherboard and processor to remove the bottleneck on my video card and make all my programs run more smoothly; eventually I'll get a new power supply and hard drives, and some additional RAM, and then by then I'll have built an entirely new system for under a grand, and will be ready to start thinking about a top-of-the-line system with PCI-Express and the latest CPUs). While it's true that my hardware will be "outdated" in about 2 years, tops, there are SO many new components coming out within the next YEAR that it's rediculous for me to worry about becoming outdated, when ANYTHING I buy today will be outdated in a year or two, period.

Intel has new single- and dual-core CPUs coming out by this time NEXT YEAR, along with new motherboard chipsets. Higher-speed RAM support will also follow, along with a slew of other things. AMD will obviously follow suit in time. Because of all this, why even bother worrying about the future too much? Look at it this way: RIGHT NOW you are having issues with your computer. Does it make sense to wait 1 - 2 YEARS, living with those problems, just so you can shell out a huge amount of dough to get the latest and greatest? Or does it make MORE sense to shell out a couple hundred bucks to solve ALL your problems RIGHT NOW, while buyind you that extra time between now and those future components? I'd take choice B anyday, and I would suggest to anyone else to do the same.

My power supply seems to be very stable with what I power:
mobo, cpu, and expansion cards
CPU fan (using Everest it shows 35 deg. C at the processor after 4 hours of moderate use.)
1 case fan
hard drive
usually only running one optical drive at a time, sometimes 2
keyboard
usb optical mouse
usb headset
usb joystick
The MX 440 does not have a fan or any power cables running to it that I noticed. It appears to be drawing power directly from the mobo. (Also on Everest I noticed it has 2 pipelines - laughed when I saw that, 6800GT has 16) I can send more detailed info on my power supply if you like. I would never trust it with a new video card or more fans though.

Absolutely get a new PSU. You won't be able to handle anything new without one. Go for the Zalman - it's powerful, EFFICIENT, and quiet.

For only having one case fan in the front of the case, one power supply fan, and the CPU fan I am happy with the current noise level and pleasantly suprised by the temperature of my CPU. I do not have neon, LEDs, or other bling on my computer. From what I've heard dust and heat are the 2 biggest killers of electronics. I clean out my case about every 6-8 months. Would you suggest another case fan on the back to help pull air through the case if I upgrade?

Depends on whether you can fit it. Get your new components, then worry about cooling. A good fan can be had for as little as $10. It's a non-issue at this point.

Again thanks to everyone for your input.

No problem. I hope my input is of good help, as I'm currently dealing with a very similar situation. ;) Read my input in that topic I linked you to earlier, and you'll see what I mean. Good luck, and feel free to ask if you have any more questions!
EDIT: PCI Express article It looks like if I upgrade my hardware will either be useless in a few years or the new stuff will still have not completely caught on for mainstream use.
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[/quote]

[jahcs]

My system is not experiencing ANY problems right now. It's the owner. I have that "I need something new itch" and I want to scratch it. For an example, I played the Doom3 demo with everything set on low and only got stutter when the shuttle was flying around. My system is perfectly competent. I want more. I believe I will be my own worst enemy for years to come :P . All my programs play great on low detail, low effects, low resolution. Now, to convince the wife I need to move the detail settings to high and increase the resolution. :shuriken:

[Roland]

My system is not experiencing ANY problems right now.  It's the owner.  I have that "I need something new itch" and I want to scratch it.  For an example, I played the Doom3 demo with everything set on low and only got stutter when the shuttle was flying around.  My system is perfectly competent.  I want more.  I believe I will be my own worst enemy for years to come :P .  All my programs play great on low detail, low effects, low resolution.  Now, to convince the wife I need to move the detail settings to high and increase the resolution. :shuriken:
[right][snapback]68951[/snapback][/right]

I have a 1.6GHz CPU, but with my video card, I can play Doom 3 on the highest settings, with ALL the driver-enabled bells and whistles (8xS AA, 16x AF), and still play very manageably. Far Cry is likewise quite playable, although both at times experience some choppy play. Battlefield Vietnam, on the other hand, can only be played on the LOWEST settings with all driver-enabled bells and whistles turned OFF, and even THEN I get regularly choppy play. :P

To put it into perspective: despite my video card being limited by my CPU by as much as 50% or more (in other words, my video card is getting only about half the workload it was designed to handle; the rest is getting tied up in the CPU, unable to pass through to the video card for processing - my CPU is bottlenecking my video card), I can run most new-age games (including World of Warcraft) at the highest detail settings with maximum Anti-Aliasing and Anisotropic Filtering at reasonably playable framerates.

The video card makes all the difference, although for me, it's forced me into a CPU / motherboard upgrade. But, I was due for one anyway. :D Next on the list, after I order my motherboard and case (already got the CPU, but motherboard sold out a couple days ago), are (in no particular order): monitor, hard drive(s), power supply. May or may not save up for a water-cooling rig, depending on how well this new setup cools and how little noise it produces. I figure my next major "upgrade" will be for a whole new system, and likely from scratch (i.e. not utilizing any old components, even if the new ones are ordered one part at a time), but I'm not expecting that until mid-to-late next year, for when the latest processors come out to market and PCI-Experess will have had a chance to start settling in. My current upgrades are gonna be geared towards low-noise, high-power computing, with hopefully plenty of overclocking. :D I'd like to squeak as much performance out of this ~$400 upgrade as I possibly can.

[DeeBye]

As for the 6600, it's considerably slower than any of the 6800 series - just not so much as to make it not worth the money. It IS worth the money, it's just that for a bit more you could get something worth more.
[right][snapback]68879[/snapback][/right]

I'm surprised you'd suggest a 6800 over a 6600GT for this system. Whichever card is chosen, the system will be the bottle neck. I say you might as well go with the 6600GT, which runs about $220 on newegg. Sure, the 6800 is a better card, but on this system that won't be noticable. And it's not like the 6600GT is in any way a substandard card. It'll run any new game (D3, HL2, etc) at the highest resolutions with the highest detail levels.

Just from a pure value standpoint, the 6600GT is the best card on the market right now.

[Roland]

I'm surprised you'd suggest a 6800 over a 6600GT for this system.  Whichever card is chosen, the system will be the bottle neck.  I say you might as well go with the 6600GT, which runs about $220 on newegg.  Sure, the 6800 is a better card, but on this system that won't be noticable.  And it's not like the 6600GT is in any way a substandard card.  It'll run any new game (D3, HL2, etc) at the highest resolutions with the highest detail levels.

Just from a pure value standpoint, the 6600GT is the best card on the market right now.
[right][snapback]68958[/snapback][/right]

Mayhap, mayhap not. I'm doing fairly well with my lower-end system and a 6800 vanilla. I imagine he would do even a bit better, although who really knows? If he opts for the 6600 GT, that would give him enough money for a new power supply.

Up to him, really, what he feels will be best.

[Guest]

I suggest something different. a 9800 pro. It should be cheaper and should be enough with that system. And get what ever RAM you need to expand to 1 gig. A 6800 is overkill here IMO.


If you can save some cash keep it toward another replacement PC which you be needing.

[jahcs]

If you can save some cash keep it toward another replacement PC which you be needing.
[right][snapback]69005[/snapback][/right]

That's exactly why I'm torn on the issue. A friend of mine still has an A310 Ultra TD My VIVO new in the box that he would be willing to sell very cheap. But it uses AGP 8x and my mobo isn't equipped for that. Struck out on that one.

I'm almost tempted to bite the bullet, get a PCI Express mobo, new RAM, power supply, and top notch video card. Reuse my drives, sound card, modem, and CPU. Then upgrade those components later. I would just be paying the credit card off over time. One reason why I haven't is I am leaning toward an Athlon 64 for my next system. Also, I don't want to be hamstrung with compatability issues.

[Concillian]

On the video cards I would lean toward the  nVidia GeForce 6800 GT.  Another card mentioned was the Ati Radeon X800 XT.  I noticed the 6800 supports 4x/8x AGP while the X800 is 8x AGP only.  Where do I find out which one my computer has?  Or am I looking at something that doesn't matter?
[right][snapback]68882[/snapback][/right]

Anything that supports AGP 8x will work in a 4x slot. The older slots used different voltage so the same is not necessarily true of lower AGP specifications, but 4x 8x is.

Personally, I would get a decent video card, and save the rest of your money. 512MB is not optimum, but is adequate. RDRAM is like twice as much as DDR RAM for no perceptible performance difference.

If you're willing to sell your existing 512 MB, you may be able to replace everything and start fresh.

For example you can go to mwave.com and get a bundle of:
Athlon 3000+ 939
1 GB ram
Epox 9NDAJ3 motherboard (NForce3 chipset)

That is $350 + shipping

Sell your ram through online forums like the FS/FT forum at anandtech.com (which I have used with great success) for even a lowball price off like $80 and you have a fair amount leftover for a decent video card. Sure you aren't talking x800XT at that point, but something in the $150-200 range is perfectly adequate for most gaming. I initially used a Radeon 9700 that I got for $100 on eBay for WoW and online First Person Shooters, and it was great for 1280x1024 in WoW and 1024x768 in most First Person Shooters at very good FPS.

There is some very good value in the used midrange AGP market right now as people jump to PCI-e for no reason. 9700, 9700 Pro, 9800 Pro, 5900/5900xt are all priced very well in the used market. And all are decent. Though having owned both the 5900xt and 9700 I have to say ATI was clearly ahead that generation despite more current midrange cards favoring nVidia.

The other option is to get a good $2-400 video card and use it with your existing MB/RAM and just save up for a platform upgrade.

But I really have to questions spending money on RDRAM right now. The value just isn't there when you can get a gig of DDR for the price of 512MB of RDRAM.

The video card market is extremely confusing, let me summarize things on the AGP front here from approximate lowest performance to highest:
#1 is assume that any version of SE or LE or whatever not mentioned here is not a good value at all with gaming in mind.
(A = ATi/Radeon N = nVidia/GeForce)
A 9200/9250
N 5200 128 bit
N 5600/5700
N 5600 Ultra
A 9600
N 5700 Ultra
A 9600 Pro
A 9600XT
---------------
N 5900XT
A 9700 / A 9800 128 bit
N 5900
A 9700 Pro / A 9800 256 bit
N 5900 Ultra
A 9800 Pro
N 6600GT / 6800
-----------------
A x800 Pro
---
N 6800GT
N 6800 ultra / A x800XT

The breakpoints are what I would consider fairly significant jumps Where there is a clear performance advantage, generally allowing a significant resolution change or other features. The x800 is kind of alone, in that it isn't quite as good as the 6800GT, but it's definitely better than the 6600GT/6800 cards. It's priced too high for it's performance if you buy it new. I got mine used and at less than 75% of what they could generally be bought for new.

I use an x800 Pro now, and it plays WoW with most sliders at high and resolution of 1600x1200, quite a move up from the 9700 which was 1280x1024 with most sliders in the middle. For FPS type games, the x800 isn't enough to play at the kind of settings I use for WoW, but 1600x1200 can be made playable, or it can be set at pretty high settings for 1280x1024.

Hopefully that gives you a better idea of the video card market. My thought on the best value is a used 9700, 9700 Pro, or 9800 in the $100-130 range, as you get good performance and decent resolution for far less than what can be bought new. As you move up in the performance range, the value decreases, mostly because video cards are THE limiting factor in high end First Person Shooter games. In reality, there is little reason for the top tier cards if you aren't playing FPS games.

[jahcs]

Anything that supports AGP 8x will work in a 4x slot.  The older slots used different voltage so the same is not necessarily true of lower AGP specifications, but 4x 8x is.

As you move up in the performance range, the value decreases, mostly because video cards are THE limiting factor in high end First Person Shooter games.  In reality, there is little reason for the top tier cards if you aren't playing FPS games.
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Thanks for the great post Concillian.

I am a bit confused on your explanation of AGP compatability.
My mobo supports AGP 1x, 2x, and 4x. I know if I buy a 4x/8x card or just a 4x card it should work. Are you saying that a card with only an 8x rating should work on my mobo? Would that A310 Ultra TD My VIVO then work on my system if I upgraded the power supply?

And about 75% of my game time is First Person Shooters. Resolution 640x480 (800x600 on older games), options set to low, has been my mantra.

[Wyrm]

ACK! For the money, you could get a current-gen card that's 100x better than that old dinosaur. Please, save your money if you're going to WASTE it on something as dated as a 4600. Utter waste of money.[right][snapback]68879[/snapback][/right]

...I still have my 4600...

<edit>

My mobo supports AGP 1x, 2x, and 4x. I know if I buy a 4x/8x card or just a 4x card it should work. Are you saying that a card with only an 8x rating should work on my mobo?

The simple answer is... not really. Rather than me try to blabber it all, I'll just point you to an article that basically sums it all up.

http://www.neoseeker.com/Hardware/faqs/kb/10,63.html

Forum post with a bit of info that's also helpful.
http://www.techspot.com/vb/archive/index/t-9561.html

PS... ran into this, dunno if it'll help.
http://www20.graphics.tomshardware.com/gra...1110/index.html
</edit>