Guild Wars: Character Profession Primary attribute
#1
What class combination do I want? What's good? Does it matter at all what I pick?

Yes and no. There is no combination which is truly gimped, but some are better than others to suit a certain playstyle. Your approach should not be, "What does each class do and do I want to live with those limitations?" but "What do I want to do? I see what is possible using these skill sets. I will mix and match these skills to suit how I wish to play, and use the unique primary attribute to further enhance, and help me decide what I'd like to do"

This post should help you with finding out what primary/secondary profession best suits how you desire to play.



In guild wars, you have six professions, and are allowed to choose one primary and one seconary professions, described here
http://www.gwonline.net/page.php?p=45

But what's the difference in choosing a warrior, as opposed to elementalist first?

Looks, equipment, and most importantly, a Primary profession attribute. I believe you should create a character to cater to your desired form of gameplay, and your primary attribute will drive what type of character you create.

Each Profession has a "Primary attribute" that you do not obtain if you choose that profession as your secondary. Each Primary attribute gives your profession a special ability not found in others, like fast casting, increased mana storage, increased healing, additional damage and accuracy with bow.

Let us look at each Primary profession:


Elementalist
-Skills here: http://www.gwonline.net/page.php?p=46

Primary attribute: Energy Storage
--gain 3 energy per level. First few points are pretty useful. Low cost of 3 cost total attribute points, gain +6 to your overall maximum energy.
--Aura of Restoration is based on Energy storage, so you'll get a synergistic effect of:
---Gain extra health per cast for spending more on your max mana reserves.
+Energy regeneration +Energy Max armor.
--Low armor rating for armor

What this means, if you wish to spend most of your time casting, consider creating an elementalist primary.

Ele/Mo especially would have a large pool of energy to drink from.

Elemental Skill sets:
Earth Magic: Lots of spells inflicting knockdown, which interrupts enemy actions like spellcasting, movement, and attack, and forces them into a sitting/ducking animation.

Additionally, earth magic has skills block, evade, and reduce damage from attacks, but sometimes slow the caster. These would be great if one considers being an "Earth Warrior" or "Warrior of Earth" (W/El) or living Golem A warrior like this would greatly reduce the Primary healer's overhead for healing while still performing warrior attack duties.

Consider how these skills are used, and arise from the restrictions of class and profession. It is end-use you need to think about.

Water:
Slow enemy. Freeze enemy. Blind enemy. Become a non-target for a period of time with Mists. Water is generally about instant ranged damaging the enemy while slowing them with cold at the same time. Cold damage enhancement spell too.

There's one spell in particular that is easily acquired and I see a lot of usage with when acquired, an elite spell called Water Trident. It does medium-high damage (just a hair under fireball) for only 5 energy to one enemy, and has a near instant recast/recharge time. If the target is struck while moving, he is knocked down. Only two downfalls to Water Trident: One, it is elite, so cannot be mixed with other elite skills. Two: it is a 'projectile' cast spell, which means it can miss if caught at a bad running angle--but its cheap fast damage which slows and potentially knocks down. Can't complain too much.

Fire:
Pure damage. Artillery, Up close, delayed damage, damage over time, instant damage. Plus, an Enchantment for additional fire attack damage (cold has equivalent too) for you warrior or ranger types wanting to use your weapons most of the time.

Consider what is best for you. Do you really want to wait 3 seconds to cast firestorm when the mob can or will move? Instant damage for moving targets. What about area of effect spells? Move to the enemy if you need to, and dash off after it is cast.

Air:
Blind, Speed yourself, knockdown, stun. Neato. Not as much damage, but application of status attacks in addition to damage just rocks. For example, lightning javelin will do damage AND interrupt an attacking foe. No preset condition of "must interrupt to do damage" like the mesmer. Do damage AND interrupt them if they're attacking.

There's a glut of other affects too. My favorite is whirlwind, an AoE attack spell around the caster that knocks down any attacking foe adjacent to the caster. Oh boy, who comes right up to you? Oh. Melee'ers.

Again, run up to the enemies tanking your teammates, but this time to save their butts and prolong their lives. Knockdown any enemy. This skill is useful even if you do not invest in air, as whirlwind is primarily useful for its attack-interruption (arse saving) abilities.

Gale. Instant Ranged knockdown. Someone chasing you or your healer? Cast gale and make them sit on their bums, with no conditions attached. Low 5 energy cost, low 1 sec activation time. All around very useful spell.

Other skill effects:
Reducing mana cost, Regain mana per cast of elemental type,

Mesmer
-Skills here: http://www.gwonline.net/page.php?p=47

Fast Casting attribute
--the formula is not clear, but visiual experience has shown 5-6 ranks of fast casting reducing cast time by half or 2/3's
--This means all spells taking 1 second of cast time are almost-instant, 2 seconds fast, and anything 3 seconds and above made tolerable.
--This can be crucial in casting interrupts, heals, and any counter-spell

Consider the Monk's long 8 second resurrect spell. Your vulnerability time would be greatly reduced as a Fast Casting Me/Mo.

On the other hand, why heal your teammates when you can dish out damage a lot faster?

Me/El as a fast cast fire mage specially would do the most damage per time. All those long 3 second plus spells are suddenly tolerable with low overhead. Cast those fireballs and meteors in no-time. Flare's 1 second cast time and instantaneous skill recharge time has suddenly become less than one second per cast. That becomes a huge increase of damage per second, as

Damage per time = Damage / (Cast time - Fast cast bonus * Time + Zero skill recharge time)

Most skills don't have that zero recharge time luxury, nor low cast time which is further reduced by the Fast Cast attribute.

Mesmer armor is not so great in terms of protection. It does however give +energy and energy regeneration like the Elementalist's. So keep in mind, Mesmers primarily make for powerful casters. Secondarily, they have a whole gamut of skills to counter every other skill in the game, including themselves! Useful for nearly any class as a secondary due to "advanced tactical" skill-sets.

Mesmers have the potential really shine in PvP, but can be the deciding factor of whether any PvE group faces a tough boss or "interesting" mob, as Me's can shut down use of all skills and abilities.


Domination Magic:
Oh woo hoo hoo! Punish, Interrupt, delay and drain any spellcasting and mana-dependent skills using instantaneous interrupts, and delayed hex spells.

Basically, you're a spellcaster's worst nightmare. The ultimate anti-mage.

The domination skill set is notorious for draining the enemy's energy supply, and punishing the enemy for any action it takes with interrupts and medium to incredibly high damage depending on the circumstances in which it is caught.

Some highlighted skills:
Backfire: Hex spell, For 10 seconds, this curse does HIGH damage whenever the enemy casts a spell. Expect 1-2.5x the listed damage. I say 2.5, because the caster rarely (in my experience) survives to make the third cast--or cannot cast at all for some reason (do dee do dee do)

Energy Burn: Medium damage, medium 10 energy cost, medium-long recharge time, high usage. Reason? Instant ranged damage that is not reduced in most, +85%, cases. Elemental damage, Physical damage are both reduced by armor and various spells and skills. Energy almost always regens. You get to use this bad boy at range, and blow a chunk of damage that is almost never reduced--that is, unless the eneny has zero to low mana, but now that their current energy is zero'ed by your energy burn is a GOOD thing.

Power Spike: Medium to High instant damage spell. Damage works only if enemy is casting a spell, but you also interrupt the spell they cast. Wonderful. Target and watch their spellcasters, and put an end to their casting days.

Cry of frustration: Similar to power spike, but the condition required is loosened to enemy using any skill. Less damage, but both interrupt and damage are now AoE around the enemy using the skill. Neat, huh?

Diversion: The next time target foe uses a skill, that skill takes an additional 10-47 seconds to recharge. Recharge time of 5 seconds. Oh boy oh boy. You can completely shut down any and all non-adrenaline based skills based on this skill alone. Totally worth it.

Many more skills have a tagged condition to do damage, delay or interrupt. Read for yourself, and consider what enemies you'll face. Knowledge of the enemy is most important when it comes to selecting mesmer skills.

For example, Shatter hex, like power spike, will do great damage to the enemy IF one of your allies is HEX'ed and near the enemy. It'll both remove the HEX from your ally and do great AoE damage.


Illusion Magic
Like the domination magic skill set, Illusion magic has many skills which require a set condition like "foe is attacking" "foe casts a spell" and creates another condition which is harmful to that enemy.

The player starts out with Conjure Phantasm, which is not very useful as a damage spell at all. It is a HEX spell that does damage over time, but a very long period of time for its investment. HEX's can be dispelled from many sources, but such a spell damaging over time is best against foes running away--thus preventing their health regeneration for X time longer. That is the true strength of this skill. . . however in general outside of PvP, we do not see much use for this.

Illusion magic has very many other interesting and very utilitarian spells. Consider Illusion magic as your secondary for warriors, rangers, and possibly monks. (I fear I do not know much about primary Necros)

Mantra of distortion (Stance, gone when putting on other stances):
Evade 75% of all physical attacks to you for a cost of 5-3 energy per attack. Definitely a survivalist skill, and can temporarily delay whole hordes of mob enemies this way. Combine this with other area interrupt and knockdown skills like cry of frustration or whirlwind, and you can 'hold the pass' temporarily keeping all enemies at bay while your mana lasts.

Otherwise, simply keep it on to survive yourself. I consider it a cool mana shield that reduces a LOT of potential damage.

Fragility: target foe takes 5-28 damage each time that foe suffers or recovers from a new condition. Excellent secondary skill for warriors in particular, whose attacks greatly revolve around inciting condition and status changes.

I must say, the Illusion skillset makes me want to create Melee specific Illusion warriors... Nightblades.

Imagined Burden: Ranged instant Hex. Slow target 50% for 8-18 seconds--or, in game terms, medium to LONG time.
I cannot stress how useful this is to survive. Cast this on any enemy chasing your spellcasters, or anyone in pursuit of you. Heck, open with this spell, luring the now slowed enemy into an ambush of ranged skill effects.

Sympathetic Vision and Soothing images: Adrenaline negating spells. All those nasty powerful adrenaline melee skills like power strike are now flushed down the toilet. Soothing images is a ranged HEX spell cast on one specific target for a medium length of time 8-18 seconds.

Sympathetic Vision's delivery is less direct, but can affect more enemies. Enchantment spell, drains all adrenaline of nearby enemies when melee attacked with this spell. So, cast it on your tanks or your runaway casters who are being attacked. All those warrior adrenaline skills are now gimped because they chose to mess with the wrong Mesmer. Ha!

In short, Illusion magic is best suited to enhance your survivability and the survival of your allies, whether spellcasters or tanks.

Inspired Magic:
This skill set is an interesting bunch. You get to steal energy, enchantments, hexes and gain those positive benefits for your own. You also have some interrupts against action and spells, but they're mainly transmuted your positive benefit, as opposed to Domination magic which punishes the enemy for their actions.

Inspired magic also has various enchantments that reduce the damage of various elemental types by a hefty percentage (1/4 to 1/2), and transforms that damage to energy for yourself.

Inspiration magic has more mish mash of skills, but generally do not do damage. They either protect you, or interrupt the enemy's action and gives you a minor positive bonus.

Other noteworthy Mesmer Skills:

Epidemic: All negative conditions target foe suffers from are spread from target foe to nearby foes.

I'm grinning ear to ear. Use this skill in combination with other condition rendering attack skills, AND fragility, which does damage whenever foe suffers or recovers from a condition.

Illusion of Weakness and Illusionary Weaponary.

Both are illusion spells, but since they're fairly rare, I thought I'd put them under here. Keep your eyes peeled for these powerful skills. Illusionary weaponary 8-34 damage replacing melee damage doesn't look like much, but this damage cannot be reduced, evaded or blocked by armor or skills. That's sick! Resistence is futile. The fact that it is an enchantment means it'll be disenchanted quickly in PvP, but not so much in PvE. In PvP I suggest using this spell as a 'finisher' rather than bread and butter use.

Illusion of Weakness.. lose 50-202 health, but when damage drops your drops your health below 25%, you gain that 50-202 health back. Muahahaha. That's a darn nice buffer. Weakness? Its an enchantment spell, so can be dispelled through various ways.

These skill combinations just get sicker and sicker. I love it. This is a fairly advanced use of 3 seperate skills in conjunction with each other, so I do not recommend it for bread and butter--but try new skills out! See how they work with each other.

Later, I will analyze other profession skills sets, but for now I will leave you with their almost-all important Primary attributes as a deciding factor for your character creation decisions:

Warrior:
Primary attribute
Strength.

Basis for many of warrior's skills, especially his running duration skills. With loads of strength, the warrior becomes a distance runner.

Every level of strength adds to armor penetration for his weapons. How effective this is varies. However, I find strength has many useful survival +hp skills, and is useful as a stand-alone skill enchancing attribute.

Warrior Armor: is quite simply the best in terms of armor rating and damage reduction. Looks? Arguable. Caster +energy +energy regen bonuses? None, but it does the job its suited for--protection via damage reduction.

Warriors have many status and condition inducing attacks centered around their weapons of choice, either axe, sword or hammer. In addition, there are advanced skills that require various enemy conditions to be effective, such as knockdown--which Hammer warriors can easily achieve.

Warriors weapon based skill attacks are sometimes based on adrenaline, which is charged by the warrior hitting the enemy, or being attacked from said enemy.

Warriors also have tactical shouts which enhance armor or speed of nearby allies, and many defensive stances that allow the warrior to spring into or out of battle, or hold their ground with +evade +block +parry a high percentage of ranged, melee or a combination of both attacks. These defensive stance skills sometimes requiring shields or swords to function.

Ranger:
Primary attribute:
Expertise

Armor: Rangers have the second best armor in the game, and can be easily customized against elemental damage. Some +energy regeneration, some +max energy, good armor rating, and +elemental armor. What's to complain about? Not as much as pure casters, but overall very good.

Rangers get very useful attributes in general. Beast mastery does a myriad of effects increasing critical and normal hit chance of your pets in addition to helping all those much needed beast mastery pet skills. Expertise reduces preperation time for many bow skills.

Many bow based skills that do +damage of various types, AoE, over time (poison + burning), and do status attacks like cripple.

Traps skills, which means mines. Very interesting. AoE Damage layed down on areas with a delayed contact charge. I like it.

Pets: Wolves, Lynx, Warthog and Moa bird. Many beast mastery skills. Basically your own personal frankenstein animal, as it can be ressurrected without penalty and tank better than most warriors! Not superb damage from pets, but very reasonable. Watch out for Beastmasters, they rock.

Rangers are also Escape artists. Rangers have a few skills that both increase speed and dodge/evade attacks for short periods of time. These become very useful in hairy situations. Outrunning rocks. Outrunning AND auto-dodging enemy arrow fire has saved my ranger's cute bum many many times. No arrow stuck in that soft fleshy bottom! Not as many, anyway.


Monk.
Primary Attribute: Divine Favor
This gives a bonus to healing, but there is rumour and reports of a bug that this bonus heal does not always properly work, in particular with healing targets other than yourself. <strike>As such, this attribute may be bugged, and I cannot recommend using Monk as Primary at this time.</strike>

Edit: If Divine Favor works, Monk Primary is strong choice for your healers.

There are many useful protection and healing skills as a monk. When desiring a primary healer, I highly recommend monk as a secondary to Me/Mo or El/Mo, to gain fast cast or energy storage added attributes. Divine favor may or may not be bugged. Monk as a secondary for Necromancer, as a true healer, given its fast mana recharge attributes, might be a third useful option--but I am unfamiliar with this build

Edit: Swissmercenary confirms Necromancer is a strong canidate for Primary of a Healing character.

Monk as secondary to warriors and rangers make them partial paladins and 'save the day' people, lowering the stress to party overall with healing and ressurrection. Tanks should be survivors, so should escape artists. Given that, W/Mo and R/Mo are bread and butter to most parties, and a popular mainstream choice. However, the power of rare and unusual profession combinations cannot be denied. At the time of this writing, Me's were becoming feared as the deadliest force in all PvP, and respected among the more experienced players. Before that, Me--anything only led to confusion among the masses, as no one knew what mesmers did (not even me). Now... Even Me/W is a serious threat, due to "Illusion Weaponary" skill alone.

Most noteworthy skill at this moment:
Vengeance resurrection: 8 second cast time, ranged. Ally is ressurrected for only 30 seconds, then dies and suffers no death penalty while alive this way. Not very useful? He is resurrected with FULL HEALTH and ENERGY. 100% health isn'tvery useful for fighting if he's only going to live 30 seconds, but it is of greater use to pull that corpse out of hairy situations.

Imagine the corpse deep into enemy territory surrounded by mobs. With Vengeance, this is not a problem if your monk with vengeance can safely angle a cast. Once alive, he'd better be instructed to run to safety as far as possible. Of course, the nastier the situation, the less he'll be able to run, but eventually his corpse will be able to run somewhere safe.


Necromancer
Primary Attribute: Soul Reaping

Gain mana for each enemy death. Can be very useful source of energy recharge.

I'm afraid I am less familiar with Necromancers than the other professions. Necromancers are another 'advanced profession' which I do not recommend to newbies to set as their primary, as they do not do much visible damage, nor have obvious supportive defensive capabiilties.

They have a variety of hexes, curses, land life siphoning skills which can be a boon to warriors. Their skills do not output a whole lot of damage by themselves, but can hold their own in tanking terms and additionally may summon minions and cause other interesting effects from corpses.

I need a necromancer expert to write this one. Any takers?

Edit #1: Made some corrections as per help from SwissMercenary

Forthcoming: Further skill analysis of warriors, rangers and monks
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#2
Thank You :) Just what I wanted / needed to see.

*waits impatiently for the second installment*
And you may call it righteousness
When civility survives,
But I've had dinner with the Devil and
I know nice from right.

From Dinner with the Devil, by Big Rude Jake


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#3
Drasca,Feb 7 2005, 06:22 AM Wrote:[right][snapback]67443[/snapback][/right]

Thanks! Nice analysis. Between my lowbie fighter and the higher ranger, I saw a few rather odd matches. Used Ranger Elementalist and Warrior Monk. Tend to agree that Monk as a primary might be suboptimal, on some of the raids they tended to die quickly and horribly.

Occhi
Cry 'Havoc' and let slip the Men 'O War!
In War, the outcome is never final. --Carl von Clausewitz--
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
John 11:35 - consider why.
In Memory of Pete
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#4
Occhidiangela,Feb 7 2005, 06:28 PM Wrote:Thanks!&nbsp; Nice analysis.&nbsp; Between my lowbie fighter and the higher ranger, I saw a few rather odd matches.&nbsp; Used Ranger Elementalist and Warrior Monk.&nbsp; Tend to agree that Monk as a primary might be suboptimal, on some of the raids they tended to die quickly and horribly.

Occhi
[right][snapback]67467[/snapback][/right]

Rules of Engagement:

1) Kill Monks

2) Kill the healers (aka monks)

3) Kill the Monks and some spellcasters
"Turn the key deftly in the oiled wards, and seal the hushed casket of my soul" - John Keats, "To Sleep"
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#5
TaiDaishar,Feb 7 2005, 01:52 PM Wrote:Rules of Engagement:
[right][snapback]67485[/snapback][/right]

Zeroeth Law: Kill mesmers.

They can seriously mess with your head.

In PvE, the most obviously deadly of mesmers are Wind Riders in jungle missions, The Wilds, Bloodstone Fen, Aurora Glade. They are a level 12 enemy when most characters are level 14-17. They still kill greatly.

Wind riders have Cry of Frustration, and Conjure Phantasm.

Cry of frustration is an interception / counterspell, if it catches you using a skill which players do almost all the time, it'll interrupt you and your compatriots nearby (very noticeable with a little #$%^ sign above your characters heads), and do damage.

Conjure Phantasm HEX isn't much damage, but it stacks, and all that negative health generation over a long period of time means the player will have a hard time being healed--AND when the player runs away he'll still die unless healed for an unknown needed amount of health.

These partial mesmers monsters are underleveled for the areas they're occupying, and still cause a lot of trouble for Players who face them. I myself have been subject to their killing powers many times. They're less troublesome as a mesmer myself, or greatly overpowering them, but... this just goes to show.

Mesmers are a threat even beyond enemy healers, as mesmers can sap your ability to play.
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#6
Drasca,Feb 7 2005, 02:38 PM Wrote:Zeroeth Law: Kill mesmers.

They can seriously mess with your head.

In PvE, the most obviously deadly of mesmers are Wind Riders in jungle missions, The Wilds, Bloodstone Fen, Aurora Glade. They are a level 12 enemy when most characters are level 14-17. They still kill greatly.

Wind riders have Cry of Frustration, and Conjure Phantasm.

Cry of frustration is an interception / counterspell, if it catches you using a skill which players do almost all the time, it'll interrupt you and your compatriots nearby (very noticeable with a little #$%^ sign above your characters heads), and do damage.

Conjure Phantasm HEX isn't much damage, but it stacks, and all that negative health generation over a long period of time means the player will have a hard time being healed--AND when the player runs away he'll still die unless healed for an unknown needed amount of health.

These partial mesmers monsters are underleveled for the areas they're occupying, and still cause a lot of trouble for Players who face them. I myself have been subject to their killing powers many times. They're less troublesome as a mesmer myself, or greatly overpowering them, but... this just goes to show.

Mesmers are a threat even beyond enemy healers, as mesmers can sap your ability to play.
[right][snapback]67488[/snapback][/right]
I would add that taken one at a time Wind Riders (et. al.) are workable, but running upon a pack of 3 or more without serious crowd control and it's over for that mission. GW really punishes the reckless player, and just punishes mildly the careful player. Most packs in GW are bound together so if one gets hurt, they all come after you. (Much like WOW, ala Princess and her entourage. :) ) There is an unholy terror in helplessly watching your red life bar turn pink (the mark of phantasm) and then quickly dropping toward zero.

To my knowledge, there is no mind defense (offense, yes) or armor to stop the mesmers illusions. One of my deadliest beta characters is a Mesmer/Necro combining the life draining of a necro with the phantom damage of the mesmer. Often I'm triple stacking life drain.

”There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio.

[Image: yVR5oE.png][Image: VKQ0KLG.png]

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#7
Minor nits:

Warrior Strength does not boost critical chances. It grants your attacks armour penetration, but only when you use melee attack skills. So, if you are using something like Cleave for your main damage skill, which can be used every third attack, Strength is much more useful then if you were using Final Thrust, which is available every 11th attack. IMHO, the biggest reason to take a Warrior primary is for the armour - I see Strength as a minor bonus, applied every few attacks. High investment into it is not all that necessary, unless you want the improvement to its skills.

Rangers: Their primary is expertise. It provides a 5% cost reduction to their skills per point. Pretty nifty, considering how expensive so many ranger skills are. I may also add that Rangers have higher elemental defense then Warriors.

Monks: Divine Favour is not bugged.

I do not believe that being a Me/Mo is all that some crack it up to be - most Monk skills take 1-2 seconds to cast. As much as I like Mesmers, I'd probably prefer the +40 healing per cast over a half a second reduction in casting time. Resurrection spells are the exception, of course. I'd rather take the Mo/Me, for the energy stealing or warrior crippling skills.

Elementalist/Monk is another toss-up. I mean, more mana is nice, but Divine Favour will grant you higher healing per second... As well as access to a few nice skills.

Now, that the nits are over...

I'd frankly say that the Elementalist mana bonus is really a mediocre attribute at best... Considering that Soul Reaping is superior in all but 4v4 pvp.

The Elementalist starts a battle with say, 30 extra mana, from 10 points in Energy Storage, right? Well, if throughout the course of the battle, your mana will never go above what a typical caster's maximum is (And it shouldn't... You should be casting, not staring into speace!), then that's the entire bonus. 30 extra mana. You burn through it, and it only comes into play the next time you fight.

The Necromancer, on the other hand, with 10 Soul Reaping, will gain 10 mana when something, anything, dies. In PvE, with large groups of monsters, itll definetely prove to be superior to Energy Storage, by far. It also makes minions viable - 10 mana for the corpse hitting the floor, 10 mana for when your minion dies - almost pays off the 25 investment. After you make 4 kills, you already get a bigger benefit then Energy Storage would provide.

In PvP, especially Tombs, Soul Reaping really shines - its the only attribute that gets stronger, the more time a battle takes. If your team is losing members, then the extra mana may change the tides - if your team is winning, then it gives you an extra safety cushion, in case things go wrong.

To add insult to injury, the Elementalist's Aura of Restoration is really not that great of a skill in PvP. It may mend little nicks and bruises, but its not going to save your life when two warriors, a ranger, and 2 elementalists are focusing their fire on you.

Edit:

Wind Riders:

Their Conjure Phantasm does not stack. It's just that Damage Over Time spells are far more damaging, and mana efficient then their Direct Damage counterparts. -5 arrows of regen is -10 health per second. Considering that characters tend to have life ratings of 250 at that point in the game, just two recasts of Phantasm will completely drain their life bars. :rolleyes:

Rules of Engagement:

Mesmers may be messing with your heads... But any Monk worth his salt is at least 60% more effective in healing his allies then healing himself.

Let me put it this way:

A team has two Monks... Your team focuses on the darned annoying Mesmer...

One Monk can throw on a healing seed - 30 health area of effect heal when the target takes damage... Then follow up with a Live Vicariously, to protect against enchantment removers, and cast an Orison here and there... And use a Word of Healing if someone's in trouble... The second monk is free to do more or less whatever he wants.

Results - with the focus fire of 6 people, you have taken one monk and one caster out of the battle. Great... A 50% drop in healing power, and a 16% drop in damage output.

Or, alternativelt, if you focus fire on one of the two Monks...

The targetted Monk is going to have to flee. When they are running, they won't be getting off the 2 or 3 second cast time spells - maybe an orison here and there. The other Monk will be busy healing the first one...

Results - you have taken both monks out of the battle. A 100% drop in healing power.

As I said, a Monk is far better suited to healing allies then himself - Healing Seed cannot be cast on yourself. Neither can Word of Healing - a spell that easily heals nearly half of a character's health, if they are under 50% life. That, and the monk doesn't have to worry about running around, avoiding attacks, worrying about Skull Crack, or Water Trident.
"One day, o-n-e day..."
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#8
SwissMercenary,Feb 7 2005, 06:52 PM Wrote:Resurrection spells are the exception, of course. I'd rather take the Mo/Me, for the energy stealing or warrior crippling skills.

We're pretty much in agreement. Thanks for the corrections... as I really just needed to rush at the end to get it done before I passed out into exhaustion.

Healing in general doesn't require a great deal of speed, but luckily all this gives the player options: "Speed Ressurrecter" (Me/Mo) vs "Power healer" (Mo/anything) vs "Death mana recharge healer" Ne/Mo Running and Escape Artist healer Mo/W Mo/R..

Players must learn to look at the skill sets and obtain what qualities about them, then mix and match.

Escape Artist, Pet Master, Bow Preperation and Traps setter (Qualities of Ranger skillset) + Ranger Primary + Monk heal skills + Monk Protection & Enchantment spells + Buffs/Curse removers.

Mix and match people. Mix and match. What do I want? I can be a pet master and master healer, if I become Mo/R, taking Primary Divine Favor Attribute, Healing, and Beastmaster.

I hope to provide just such descriptions and overall tone and qualities of the professions.


Quote:Elementalist/Monk is another toss-up. I mean, more mana is nice, but Divine Favour will grant you higher healing per second... As well as access to a few nice skills.

Yep, it is a toss-up, and that's what's great about GW. Different qualities, each with advantages. Hopefully we can present what advantages and disadvantages for each quality.


Quote:I'd frankly say that the Elementalist mana bonus is really a mediocre attribute at best... Considering that Soul Reaping is superior in all but 4v4 pvp.

I'd agree that is true for PvP, where enemies die left and right. PvE? Soul Reaping's usefulness is limited to the number and strength of enemies.
Quote:The Elementalist starts a battle with say, 30 extra mana . . . You burn through it, and it only comes into play the next time you fight.

There are additional benefits to having extra maximum mana. For one, soul reaping isn't the only fast mana gain route. Rangers have marksman's wager, and Warriors have bonetti's defense, mesmer's with various inspired magic skills. Empty your mana bowl, and then use one of these skills to its fullest.

More interestingly, there are various powerful skills which require you to have more energy than your enemy for it to be effective. These energy based gamble skills, aura of restoration, and other energy storage based skills make Energy storage as an attractive attribute. Also, many elementalists skills cause exhaustion, giving a -10 energy penalty (which is recovered over time), so Soul Reaping is not the End-all, be-all, if one considers use of Exhaustion based skills.

Obviously, if there's no interest in these skills or penalities, then Energy storage is not worth it.
Quote: It also makes minions viable - 10 mana for the corpse hitting the floor, 10 mana for when your minion dies

Interesting. I am warming up to Necromancers.

Quote: its not going to save your life when two warriors, a ranger, and 2 elementalists are focusing their fire on you.

Very little will, if they're worth their salt. If not, pfffft. I have skills and tactics against a lot worse. I used to have a W/Mo early on with focus on Strength, Tactics and Healing--in particular a +200 hp extra hp for 10 seconds skill, several blocking defense stances, self-healing skills, and healing hands--which healed me every time I took physical damage. In those days, most damage didn't go above 13, and the average was 4. I healed 12 per attack. That net gain of +8 hp per attack on me... LOL. If I was last, I couldn't be killed by their entire 8 person party for a good 3-5 minutes with running. 1-2 minutes of taking all 8 enemy's attacks.

My pure tank setup was perfect for my desired role at the time.

I agree that aura of restoration is generally for nicks and cuts, but sometimes those add up, especially in PvE. Honestly, I don't use Aura of Restoration much, but when I have it can mean the difference between life and death. Its value is mediocre, but that's 'just enough' soemtimes.

Quote:A team has two Monks... Your team focuses on the darned annoying Mesmer...

...


Results - with the focus fire of 6 people, you have taken one monk and one caster out of the battle. Great... A 50% drop in healing power, and a 16% drop in damage output.

Not quite. With an anti-caster, Mesmers can interrupt and punish all spellcasting skills. So one mesmer takes out two monks healing skills with one or two skills each. (more depending on skills and preperation of said players).

Hexs, like backfire which PUNISHES. Monks have to be prepared for it. Minus one healing / other skill slot, and time to cast. They SHOULD, but there are dummies out there. Healing is interrupted. If they ignore backfire--it is their deaths.

Direct interrupts: Power spike, surge, etc. Yeah, monks don't want to go there. Healing is taken out, and spellcasting interrupted.

Skill nullifers: Diversion, blackout, etc. One mesmer takes out Monk healing for several attack/spellcasting rounds.

So...

One mesmer takes out Two monks ability to heal. Granted, the mesmer may not be going for the monks. They might simply take out elementalist powers, or up to multi warrior adrenaline gaining abilities. Don't know, but that definitely edges the team DPS and HPS into the mesmer's team favor.

Quote:That, and the monk doesn't have to worry about running around, avoiding attacks, worrying about Skull Crack, or Water Trident.
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Monks are great, but just healing won't cut it--and the monk that doesn't run around avoiding attacks, is going to be a sitting duck. That doesn't mean monks should always run, especially with those knockdown if running skills around, but mixing it up is definitely important.

Run. Heal. Not heal. Cure ailment. Enchant others. Protect. That's monk class alone. Monk paired with other class skill sets? The possibilities are overwhelming. I'd hate to try to fight that heal-tank I described in the paragraphs above here, not without some skills to sap and take away the tank strengths.

Mesmers don't kill, they cripple. Enemies aren't dead, but they become neutered, with their strengths taken away from them--thus becoming living targets, or greatly less effective healers and damage dealers.

Thus, mesmers can limit the overall momentum of the enemy, manipulate it to place control over the battle, and he who can control the battle is most deadly.

Healing is great, but control over your own abilities takes precedence. If you cannot use your strengths...

Mesmers take priority as targets.
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#9
Blackout is really not too an impressive of a skill, ever since the recent changes. Diversion is nice, however. Backfire/Arcane Connundrum on a Monk = the team is typically able to remove the hex, considering the urgency.

As for mesmer interrupts, they can't exactly disable a monk, bar a lucky Power Leak. 1 second casting time on most Monk skills = extremely difficult to react.

An energy steal-focused Mesmer is perhaps the closest thing to a monk disabler (Ignoring Lingering Curse) - the Monk is pretty much restricted to Orison of Healing, and using a Glyph of Lesser Energy (From secondary Elementalist, or a skill charm).

And about the "Characters, even with healing can't stand still, must run" bit - wouldn't this apply moreso to Monks, increasing the reasons for focusing them? (Obviously running away from your team's healers is a bad idea)

Now, I appreciate the power of Mesmers - I think of them to be targets of utmost priority. Monks of course, still get the utmost-utmost priority award. Ever since I spent half a dozen hours playing the pre-built Monk/Elementalist with my guild in the Tombs, I've gotten a whole new appreciation for Monk Strengths and weaknesses - Energy draining being very much higher up then interrupts.
"One day, o-n-e day..."
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#10
Whoa...!

I did try out Guild Wars a bit last beta weekend, but only remembered in time to get up to... level 4 or so. At that point I had just figured out that I could buy skills from the guy in the main town. Yes, I'm serious. :lol:

All I can say it keep the information coming!!! :D
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#11
SwissMercenary,Feb 8 2005, 12:09 AM Wrote:Blackout is really not too an impressive of a skill, ever since the recent changes. Diversion is nice, however. Backfire/Arcane Connundrum on a Monk = the team is typically able to remove the hex, considering the urgency.

As for mesmer interrupts, they can't exactly disable a monk, bar a lucky Power Leak. 1 second casting time on most Monk skills = extremely difficult to react.

Now, I appreciate the power of Mesmers - I think of them to be targets of utmost priority. Monks of course, still get the utmost-utmost priority award.

Energy draining being very much higher up then interrupts.
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Yep, we're really chewing on nits--as priority really depends on other more immediate factors like: what's available to attack, momentum of party, et al. That isn't my focus however. Mine is an excuse to discuss through the game's skills.

I do not like Blackout. It doesn't last nearly long enough.

I can typically assume the monk will be casting or using skills a great % of his time. This is a safe assumption with most humans. If the current casted spell is not interrupted, the next one will be. However, that shouldn't be necessary. Interrupt Mesmers should have fast cast, less than 1/2-1/3 a second is needed. Plenty of time--unless the healer themselves is a fast cast Me/Mo. Then the anti-cast interrupts are probably better spent against El's Necro's.

Remember Cry of frustration? That's a fun interrupt.

Mesmer skills do not generally "only" interrupt. There's always a secondary quality to to thier skills, like damage or mana leak

Aside on Mana draining skills: Typically, its very easy to drain mana to very low levels. With more than one mesmer, it almost always happens--especially since many early mesmers choose chaos storm for extra damage. Chaos storm steals energy whenever the foe casts a spell in a given area. This is one reason why 'not moving' is bad for monks. Localized area of effect spells over time that would be ineffective otherwise suddenly approach their full potential.

Power Leak: Oh boy. Interrupt and drain mana off target. Very fun.

Power Spike: interrupt and big damage.

Diversion is fun. Hex removing means time spent removing hexes rather than healing (or something else). That's a good thing for the Mesmer's team.

I've also had the honor of using this a few times:
Power Block: If target foe is casting a spell, that spell is interrupted. The interrupted spell and all spells of the same attribute are disabled for 3-13 seconds for that foe. This is an elite skill.

Lots of interrupts, and hexes available. Can't assume your party will take care of your problems for you, but if they do, they're spending time cleaning up Mesmer's messes rather than fighting/healing/etc, meanwhile the mesmer is interrupting left and right.

I'm really glad to have you to discuss Skill sets with Swissmercenary. I'm sure the rest of the lurkers appreciate it too.

Care to write a bit more about Monks and Necros? :D

I'm severely lacking in the Necromancer experience department, and monk as a primary healer too. I've only had them as secondaries and witnessed some excellent monks in PvE.

I am primarily interested in what Necromancers can do, how you would describe and group their skills, and what synergies you can create by using skills in conjunction with Necro skills and how it works with various other profession skills.

For anyone reading that request, that is how you should be approaching Professions. What kinds of things can these do? How can I make them work together? Can I think of how I want to make it work with other skills?

A few times, I've had 3-4 Monks in our high level PvE groups. The healing was insane. Funny as heck too. We could survive anything.
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#12
Occhidiangela,Feb 7 2005, 11:28 AM Wrote:Thanks!&nbsp; Nice analysis.&nbsp; Between my lowbie fighter and the higher ranger, I saw a few rather odd matches.&nbsp; Used Ranger Elementalist and Warrior Monk.&nbsp; Tend to agree that Monk as a primary might be suboptimal, on some of the raids they tended to die quickly and horribly.

Occhi
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hehe, those are my exact first classes played! I loved my ranger elementalist, and w/mo early on.

Good Primary Monks are rather tough bastards. They know when to run. They know when to provoke. They know when to stay. They know when to do a fighting run. They are a bastion of hope when all is lost by the rest of the team.

Bless the Monks. Salt of the earth. Too bad I almost never paid attention to secondary classes of Primary monks. I never quite know what others desire to compliment the Mo ability. All professions have 'support' skills somewhere. Just a matter what kind and when to use them.
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#13
Some minor comments - won't go into details (For now):

Chaos Storm - I don't see this spell used too much - people generally move after getting hit by it.

Interrupts - even with 1/3 of a second cast times, there's always lag, and reaction time making getting them off quite difficult. And, yes, I do remember CoF... Of course, players have nothing on the instant reflexes of monsters, eh?

Ah, and honestly, I have not had much experience with a primary Necromancer - I have only made it to Riverside with a Me/N, and have gotten through a few missions with a N/Me. From observing PvP, however, I'd have to give props to Well of Blood, and Mark of Pain. From browsing skill lists, Rend Enchantments is quite the nice ability.
"One day, o-n-e day..."
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#14
Drasca,Feb 7 2005, 01:22 PM Wrote:Pets: Wolves, Lynx, Warthog and Moa bird. Many beast mastery skills. Basically your own personal frankenstein animal, as it can be ressurrected without penalty and tank better than most warriors! Not superb damage from pets, but very reasonable. Watch out for Beastmasters, they rock.

Bolded text: Does that mean no more 15% death penalty on the owner of the pet, or no penalty for the pet itself? I still have nightmares about my Moa Bird dying a horrible death and crippling me for an entire mission. I even stopped resurrecting him.

Quote:Rangers are also Escape artists.

*Has flashback of playing tag with the white mantle guys*

Yeah, tell me about it ^_^
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#15
I do not believe that rangers have death penalties for pet deaths anymore, no. Also, don't think that pets HAVE a death penalty counter to worry about... But I could be wrong, since I don't play Rangers.

As for escape artistry, try out Illusion of Haste, for getting from area to area - if you can get a lead on enemies, they tend to stop chasing you.

Edit: Pfah, meant as a reply to Walkiry
"One day, o-n-e day..."
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#16
Not so much a nit, as a disagreement on a matter of opinion.

Drasca,Feb 7 2005, 12:22 PM Wrote:I believe you should create a character to cater to your desired form of gameplay, and your primary attribute will drive what type of character you create.

I'd also tend to disagree with this - its very much plausible to play to one's secondary (As in the case of the El/Mo, or the N/Mo), and still quite plausible to completely ignore one's primary attribute (Warrior (ab)using monk signets - the low mana pool is not a problem, and you get to enjoy some impressive defense, as well as lovely utility spells, such as Sprint. And, of course, you can't forget "For Great Justice!!!111" :lol: ). Likewise, a R/Me who uses plenty of Mesmer skills has little need of Expertise - it only reduces the mana cost of attack skills.
"One day, o-n-e day..."
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#17
SwissMercenary,Feb 9 2005, 03:05 PM Wrote:I'd also tend to disagree with this - its very much plausible to play to one's secondary[right][snapback]67705[/snapback][/right]

Hehe. Shows I need to reword my statement. Didn't focus on skillsets enough, and primary attribute as a secondary factor to support those skills. I think we have a similar philosophy, to say the least... although the particulars on how to word it isn't easy :)

We do differ a little bit. I think the Primary attribute should be taken into consideration. However, disregarding the attributes all together, there is NO combination which is completely useless. Less effective than others for certain tasks, sure, but still quite effective. I've used my R/E from complete Ranger, to complete Elementalist and back again to Beastmaster / Escape artist - Survivalist for emergency healer type-- by adding ressurrect skill using a superior skill charm. You can do anything...

However, I want players to have full knowledge and be able to take advantage of primary attributes against their priorities in gameplay. Advantages/Disadvantages of armor protection (vs Phys and Elemental, W & E respectively) vs energy should though of too, but nitpicked last imo, as they're less important to overall flow of desired gameplay.

SwissMerc, those are prime examples of skill flexibity you gave. There aren't standard limitations in gameplay. Mix and match the skills as one pleases. Mix and match attributes too. Sometimes, the skill's so useful, one doesn't need to even invest attributes into it! Or support it with loads of energy. Don't have to. Take in consideration what are its effects, not how numberically 'effective' it is--as that is not clear cut. I love the skill whirlwind, and I never need to invest in air magic for it to be useful. Knock down all around me, and for a pittance mana cost. I like it on my casters, and it'd be highly useful on a melee character. Use whirlwind on enemies, then those +belly smash skills that require a knocked down enemy.

Everyone, whenever you go to a skill trainer, scan for unusual and highly effective skill combinations from seperate trees and professions, starting with knowing what skills you currently have. My skills do X, what skills can complement X?

Low mana cost skills? Easy mana gain? No real need for energy on armor then.

I love the 'support' and 'command' skillsets in each profession, as they can be useful everywhere.

You've covered signets, so I'll name skills useable for anyone off the top of my head.

Rangers: Evade+Run skills. Oh my. That's useful for any caster. Marksman's wager, +5 energy for each successful ranged attack, -10 for each miss. Quick ranged recharge.

Warrior: Instant disposable +Hp, +block/evade/dodge/parry stance skills. Especially bonetti's defense, which gives +5 energy for every parry. Caught in a rut? Use that, and firebomb AoE spells. Defend yourself and recharge.

Mesmer: Whole bunch of instants, signets. The whole Inspiration magic tree really. Mana of distortion, stance +75% evade for 5-3 energy per evade. Mantra of flame/frost, serious elemental damage reduction AND gain energy from said element.

Monk: Everything that's a 'cure' or boost, which is 2 whole trees. Resurrection especially.

Elemenalists: All those Earth magic armors and +block attack auras. Whirlwind, which knocks down attackers. Gale, the sit your arse down skill. Signets that reduce energy cost. Very neat stuff.

Necro: Necro teleport. Well of Power. Bunch of slow / cripple enemy curses.

I must write more before the weekend...
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#18
Walkiry,Feb 9 2005, 08:51 AM Wrote:Bolded text: Does that mean no more 15% death penalty on the owner of the pet, or no penalty for the pet itself? I still have nightmares about my Moa Bird dying a horrible death and crippling me for an entire mission. I even stopped resurrecting him.
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That's what we all used to do. The death penalty for player upon pet death has been removed, and far as I can tell there's no death penalty for pet.

So... yes. Instant punching bag, but with a few call of protection skills with damage reduction. Oh boy, near invincible punching bag. I do not know if there's a minimum damage after -dr kicks in, but my pets nearly never died once I offered skill support. Yes, that commits half the skill bar for an extremely strong pet with 2 damage reduction skills, one pet ressurect/heal skill, and one charm animal to keep him there.. but it can be worth it. Especially so, when there are no official tanks.

Granted, in most situations you only need one damage reduction beast skill, but for those times when you do not have a tank. . . You'll want that near-invincible pet.
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#19
Drasca,Feb 9 2005, 09:12 PM Wrote:Mesmer: Whole bunch of instants, signets. The whole Inspiration magic tree really. Mana of distortion, stance +75% evade for 5-3 energy per evade. Mantra of flame/frost, serious elemental damage reduction AND gain energy from said element.

Mantra of distortion - not too great, without skills that replenish energy when you parry/your opponent attacks. Gets bumped up to "Nice skill", if you have them.

The elemental mantras - too situational for my taste.

Quote:Elemenalists: All those Earth magic armors and +block attack auras. Whirlwind, which knocks down attackers. Gale, the sit your arse down skill. Signets that reduce energy cost. Very neat stuff.

Don't forget Ward Against Melee. 50% miss rate for enemy warriors in the area. Ward against Elements is nice too.

Quote:Necro: Necro teleport. Well of Power. Bunch of slow / cripple enemy curses.

Haven't seen the teleportation spells put to that great of a use - a bit too situational (You need to have an unexploited corpse, it needs to be in the right place, etc, etc.) And, well, situational skill = probably there's a better alternative for a slot.

Let me also give props to Mark of Pain and Rend Enchantments. Don't leave home without them, kids.
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#20
Swiss Mercenary,Feb 9 2005, 07:17 PM Wrote:a bit too situational (You need to have an unexploited corpse, it needs to be in the right place, etc, etc.)[right][snapback]67727[/snapback][/right]

My perspective is that everything is situational. Some more than others, of course, but the only semi-guaranteed positions are meat shield and healer. Then there are layers to stop even that! Skills that reduce or eliminate ability to heal, directly on the healed or indirectly by taking down caster's skills or caster's life.

A situational skill does not automatically mean better alternative for that slot. It means you must decide if being strong in that situation is worth it. Funny, because I do consider ressurrect a situational skill too. Resurrect isn't always necessary, it usually is, but the game gets more intense without a dedicated resurrecter. Almost all skills have their place. Newbies, don't let 'being situational' scare you. Cure HEX is a situational spell. The enemy may never HEX you seriously, especially on newbie levels. Backfire, a mesmer HEX skill, is rather situational in that it depends on the caster actually casting spells within 10 seconds of being hexed! Imagine that! It has happened, and many times for me.

Mesmer skills are generally more situational than professions, of course. With mantras of elements, you get situational strengths vs those elements when you need it. Mantra of distortion, I generally do not keep up if I do not need to. Whether mantra of distortion is up depends on my perceived threat level. However, I am safe in the knowledge that if

Remember, the great tactician knows not only of, and how to use, but the matter of when too. Constant Mantra of distortion use might mean draining the mana pool, especially for melee people. If mana is not a problem, fine, but if it is. Use mana of distortition in tight spots, or when can temporarily alleviate normal tanks.

Low health? Mantra of distortion time. Fire users (and there are generally a lot of them)? Mantra of flame time.

There was also an interesting R/Me build which had a 'call of wind' that turned all elemental damage to fire, and mantra of fire. Hence, he would be very strong against fire damage almost all the time. Not everyone's so specialist, but this combination managed to circumvent the normal limitations of mantra of flame--at a temporary 5% death penalty cost per usage.

Worth it? Can be. 5% health vs ~25-50% damage reduction from elements. I think the latter wins when there are archers and elementalists around.
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