Changes to the Stormrage Guild system

[Zippyy]

That was my attempt at misguided humor...see I was trying to make the joke that I accidently booted the REAL Bolty. :)
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It was not misguided, I didn't catch it because I am dumb.

It's not you, it's me.

[MongoJerry]

Taking into consideration the discussion and feedback given in this thread, I spent the past week carefully composing this Lurker Lounge Chat Channel and In-Game "Guilds" Official Guide and Policy Statement. I hope this document addresses many of the issues discussed in this thread, and I welcome further feedback on this issue as my opinions are not immutable. However, please keep in mind that this document is the currently operating Lurker Lounge policy covering the in-game guilds, and I ask that guild masters and all players for that matter follow these policies until such time as it's determined that a change to the policies be made.

[LochnarITB]

The thread containing the policy was locked so I'll just reply here.

1. In the chat window, right-click on the General tab.

When I first tried this, I had some difficulty. It turned out that you had to get the tab to highlight before you could click on it. In order to highlight it, I had to move the mouse to the top of the tab. The middle of the tab does nothing. You might want to add a note that the tab changes colors when it is highlighted and only then can it be right clicked.

(Note: Killing on sight members of well known KoS guilds is fine. Turnabout is fair play).

I don't think it is proper to include this. My understanding of the feelings of the Lurkers community is that, in the Diablos, PKing a PKer is still PKing. How is this different?

[Boutros]

I don't think it is proper to include this.  My understanding of the feelings of the Lurkers community is that, in the Diablos, PKing a PKer is still PKing.  How is this different?
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Firsly, I never supported PKing or so called PKKing in Diablo or Diablo 2. I can't recall if I ever made a direct response to Anonymous Coward on the DSF, but my feelings were always opposed to her point of view, and to any PvP outside of consencual duels. PvP was not an major or well balanced part of Diablo, or to the best of my knowledge, and important part of Diablo 2. Yet in World of Warcraft it is clear that PvP is an important and integral part of the game, and also it is entirely voluntary. Those who set their PvP flags or start a character on a PvP server know or should know what they are getting into. When you are on a PvP server and see a red name, with a known KoS guild tag attached, you are about to be attacked, unless you are with a superior force. Thus to give yourself the best chance to come out of the fight alive you should gain the initiative with a pre-emptive strike.

If anything, I feel the PvP guidlines set by Mongo may be a bit too restrictive. That is not to say I KoS as a matter of course. 90% of the time I adopt a live and let live policy when I encounter filthy alliance, especially when I am questing. Yet I feel there are situations where indiscriminate killing is appropriate or even called for. For example, I went to a raid of Astranaar with some Basiners some weeks back. As I was level 33 or so and the Astranaar guards are 40 I couldn't really do anything to them, so I contributed by murdering low level quest NPCs and anyone with a red name (most of the time I didn't even check what their level was). I felt that this was in the spirit of the raid, and reasonable. If I'm actively taking over an Alliance area or town, I'm not going to let the enemy go about their buisness just because they are 10 levels lower than me.

There are other situations where I have killed more or less indiscriminately and I don't feel particularly bad about it. If I'm at Nesingwary's I won't be shy about killing people outnumbered or outleveled or anyone at all, because I wan't the camp under horde control so I and others can do buisness there. It's even true that at times I get fed up with getting killed by higher leveled characters and I take my anger out on any nearby alliance, but I never corpse camp and don't generally jump people while they are fighting monsters or things like that. I don't support unrestricted KoS, or greifing people, but I think there are times and places for killing first and asking questions later.

[MongoJerry]

I don't think it is proper to include this.  My understanding of the feelings of the Lurkers community is that, in the Diablos, PKing a PKer is still PKing.  How is this different?

Oy! Why do I have visions of spending a week trying to define KoS and griefing and all the nuances of what's right and not. Lochnar, player killing in WoW is very different from Diablo II. As I said before, I was one of the most vocal opponents of PK'ing in Diablo II, and some of my sentences on PK'ing in hardcore games got integrated into Sirian's famous diatribe. What I found surprising about playing on the WoW PvP servers is that I actually enjoyed the PvP experience. The WoW PvP experience is very different from Diablo II. The three primary ways they are different are:

1. There is an intrinsic mutual consent in PvP in WoW. When someone logs in to the PvP server, one is in effect getting a James Bond license: "The right to kill or be killed." This doesn't mean that you would agree to fight in every fight you end up having, but unlike Diablo II, you did actually have the choice to play in a PK-free or a PK-ok environment.

2. The death penalty is much smaller -- only a loss of time and some dignity. I won't say that there is *no* penalty like some claim, because I know opportunity costs are real (ie. you lose time that you could've spent getting gold or exp), but it's not as draconian as losing your character forever in Diablo II -- or if you were a softcore wussie, some chunk of experience.

3. Players have the ability to fight back. Some classes have some advantages over others, but there is no one class or group of classes that is completely dominant over other classes like in D2. What's more, unlike Diablo II, the PvE equiped player isn't very different from the PvP equiped player, so a PvE player can do quite well against an attacker. Finally, after you die in WoW, you have the ability to come back and get revenge on your attacker either by hunting him or her down yourself or gathering friends or factionmates and going after him or her. It's not like in D2 where the PK can just laugh at you in town and then run off to a different server.


Anyway, back to the discussion about KoS activities, you need to play on the PvP server to understand. There are certain guilds whose purpose in life is to be kill-on-sight guilds. That is, their purpose is to go out and kill all members of the other faction anytime anywhere at any moment -- and the more unfair the fight is the better. A character in this guild's entire focus is on this and other activities like leveling and getting equipment is designed to be able to kill other members of the other faction. Two Alliance guilds on Tichondrius who do this are Exiled and Kali Compton. Understand that I have never once had a person or group of players in these guilds pass by *any* opportunity to gank or attack me or any other person I've spoken to. What's more, these guilds plan events specifically around ganking entire zones.

It is not a case where they are a couple of guilds with a few bad actors in it. It's a case where the guilds' stated purposes are to gank and KoS all members of the opposing faction. A person who joins one of these guilds knows what they are getting into. They are in effect signing a stronger James Bond contract: "A license to gank or be ganked." For them, ganking and being ganked is part of the game, so yes, I release Lurkers from all moral inhibitions from KoS'ing members of well known KoS guilds. A person who joins a KoS guild choses to play the game that way and in effect publicly declares that they are playing the game that way. A Lurker should have no inhibitions about indulging that person. If the person doesn't like the KoS way, they always have the opportunity to leave the KoS guild.

If anything, I feel the PvP guidlines set by Mongo may be a bit too restrictive. That is not to say I KoS as a matter of course. 90% of the time I adopt a live and let live policy when I encounter filthy alliance, especially when I am questing. Yet I feel there are situations where indiscriminate killing is appropriate or even called for.

Come on, Boutros. Let's not get into scemantics, and please don't make me have to write a white paper on what is and isn't KoS activity. We both know what KoS activity is when we see it. I very explicitly say, "KoS activity means always killing players of the opposing faction no matter what the situation and level differences are among the players." When you're raiding a town, you're raiding a town. When you're defending Nessingwary's Expedition so that people can turn in quests, you're defending Nessingwary's Expedition. But when you're a level 60 riding through Desolace and you see a level 35 character of the opposing faction fighting a couple of mobs for quests and there haven't been any reports of serious ganking or fighting in the area in the general chat channel, then don't be a jerk, OK?

[Guest]

Im curious. What would you guys do if you were waiting for a quest spawn with a friend and their were 2 enemies waiting there 2?


As I said I am just curious(since you put this on the LL forum I guess its my right to be curious).
Peronally I dont enjoy the way many of you play, I find it contrived and "carebearish". Im not one of KOS the world guys but I dont like restrictions. But thats just my preference.

[MongoJerry]

Im curious. What would you guys do if you were waiting for a quest spawn with a friend and their were 2 enemies waiting there 2?
As I said I am just curious(since you put this on the LL forum I guess its my right to be curious).

Sure, I'd probably attack them. Why wouldn't I? You're not ganking. You're fighting over a resource, which is the cause of most wars. Add in the fact that both pairs are probably in the same level range if they are doing the same quest, and I don't see a problem with starting a fight over it. Don't join a PvP server, if you don't want to engage in PvP. Just be ready to have to deal with your new-found friends rezing while you're fighting said quest spawn.

[Kevin]

Im curious. What would you guys do if you were waiting for a quest spawn with a friend and their were 2 enemies waiting there 2?
As I said I am just curious(since you put this on the LL forum I guess its my right to be curious).
Peronally I dont enjoy the way many of you play, I find it contrived and "carebearish". Im not one of KOS the world guys but I dont like restrictions.  But thats just my preference.
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On a PvP server I would fight them, sure. Same reasons Mongo stated. On a PvE server, if they were already in PvP mode I would most likely fight them (unless I was hopelessly outclassed by them you know they were +5 levels on me). On an RP server it would depend entirely on what my characters make-up was. This is part of the reason I have characters on different servers. Sure most of my time has been spent playing on a PvE server but since I didn't have anything but the final stress test and the open beta I want to see the content more safely first. I'm thinking that I will play more PvP server later (unless the battlegrounds satisfy all my PvP cravings). But there are days I just don't want to deal with it. I can have a lot of fun without battling against another human.

But again, on the PvP servers, yeah I would fight in a case like that, I would fight over resources nodes too, otherwise whats the point of being on a PvP server.

Now I still wish PvP was more robust. I wish they had more robust crafting to help make PvP more robust as well. It would be cool if you could raid a town and actually damage it. You know have an impact on the game. It would be cool if you could then use crafting to repair the town. I would be on PvP servers so much more if there was more point to it like that. A dynamic quest system so that quests could be generated to get all level ranges involved to repair the outpost or the town. But anyway I'm rambling way too off track.

But there are differences in the way you should think about PvP and PvE servers. Blizzard finally listened to the D2 people and gave you the toggle at the time you "create game". That is a good thing. You have a lot more choice in the game and when you play PvP you are stating from the start you are willing to fight the other faction at any time in a contested zone. If you are on PvE you are only willing to fight when you want to. This is a very good thing and it's the way D2 should have been :)

[LochnarITB]

I understand that PKing is a hot button issue and that your focus was on that. My intention was to point out that my take on the Lurker stance was turnabout was not fair play, in reference to the last words of that quote.

I do not need to play on a PvP server to understand what is being said. If it was my choice to play on a PvP server, I would do many of the things mentioned here, in the spirit of PvP. I would participate in raids. I would battle over resources. I would defend areas critical to quest completion. What I would not do is take a high level character out hunting low levels of the other side, even if they were in a known KoS guild. By saying "turnabout is fair play", that's what I see being advocated. Perhaps that is what you are saying but I just can't see that as being fun.

You also run into one other problem, defining a "known" KoS guild. Will someone create a blacklist somewhere saying such and such guilds are officially KoS and hunting season is open? Will they wear a KoS on their guild tag to indicate their status? What happens when one sees an incident of extreme imbalance? Do they then start hunting that guild until they are informed they are not KoS and that it was just one bad apple (or even a misinterpretation of what was seen to trigger the hunt)? By opening the door to the possibility, you do set the need for some definition. The simplest way to do that would be to have said blacklist and state a no holds barred policy for those guilds.

[Boutros]

I define a "known" KoS guild on the basis of previous encounters with the guild. I keep my own private death list and add people and guilds whenever appropriate. I wouldn't use a public list, as I might in fact be attacking people who had helped me in the past just because someone else said they were jerks.

[MongoJerry]

You also run into one other problem, defining a "known" KoS guild.  Will someone create a blacklist somewhere saying such and such guilds are officially KoS and hunting season is open?  Will they wear a KoS on their guild tag to indicate their status?  What happens when one sees an incident of extreme imbalance?  Do they then start hunting that guild until they are informed they are not KoS and that it was just one bad apple (or even a misinterpretation of what was seen to trigger the hunt)?  By opening the door to the possibility, you do set the need for some definition.  The simplest way to do that would be to have said blacklist and state a no holds barred policy for those guilds.

My intention is to create guidelines and ask Lurkers to use their best judgement when implementing them. Otherwise, I end up having to create a long list of legalistic rules and procedures that invariably don't cover every situation and anyway will end up being too restrictive or too loose and everything just gets into a big mess. As far as creating a Lurker Lounge blacklist goes, that creates two problems: 1. That's what guilds do, and the Lurker Lounge is not a guild. 2. Lurkers play on many different servers and I don't want to keep an updated list of blacklisted KoS guilds for all servers.

In my guidelines, however, I do specifically say "well known KoS guilds," so that should cover your issue of if a person sees one incident of extreme imbalance. The phrase "well known" could mean that you've seen mulitple incidents involving different people in that guild, that you have talked to others who have seen similar incidents from the same guild, and that maybe you have seen some posts by the guildmaster of those guilds bragging about such incidents. I leave it up to the individual Lurker's judgement to find out what guilds on their servers are KoS guilds, but it usually doesn't take long for a KoS guild to show its face for what it is (usually they brag about being a KoS guild).

[Boutros]

Come on, Boutros.  Let's not get into scemantics, and please don't make me have to write a white paper on what is and isn't KoS activity.  We both know what KoS activity is when we see it.  I very explicitly say, "KoS activity means always killing players of the opposing faction no matter what the situation and level differences are among the players."  When you're raiding a town, you're raiding a town.  When you're defending Nessingwary's Expedition so that people can turn in quests, you're defending Nessingwary's Expedition.  But when you're a level 60 riding through Desolace and you see a level 35 character of the opposing faction fighting a couple of mobs for quests and there haven't been any reports of serious ganking or fighting in the area in the general chat channel, then don't be a jerk, OK?
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I knew you were no carebear so I was a little suprised when I read your guidelines. But It's clear now that I misinterpreted your intent and meaning. Thanks for the clarification, I no longer have any issues with your policy.

[Magicbag]

Hello Lurkers

No wishes to open up old wounds, so if this thread has been mostly resolved in the eyes of all parties, please disregard.

Some background on me:
I made the investment of time/energy/skill to become a GM of a guild about 6 months before D2 came out. I had played D1 and browsed LL at that time, but only really became interested in a game and the accompanying in-depth stategy enough to join when D2 came out.

At this time, there were a lot of great information coming out of the lounge. People who had dug into the code or tested certain aspects of the game enough to present facts that Blizzard itself got wrong or didn't mention.

When the D2 phase died down (I think it was about 2 years for me) I naturally stopped visiting the lounge much. It also went down at some point. I revisited and reopened a new account when I got bored and went to revisit D2. I was pleasantly sursprised to see the LL still here with many familiar faces.

What LL means for me:
The LL to me (and I would say a lot of people) is an intelliigent community with a few didicated games that they delve into the nuts and boltys of. I savor informational posts, new ways of playing the game, and different attack agles on problems faced in the game. To this end it is a gaming community.

What one joins WITHIN thse games is a guild. These differ from gaming communities in a lot of ways. Firstly, they are highly organized often with an organizational structure far removed from the boards. Secondly, and most importantly they require more commitments from the members. Many people could be long time members of the community and never post, to play in the guild and never participate would not be welcome me thinks.

Some places combine both of these aspects with good results i.e. AB (alhtough I have never gamed with them). Others only can only really do one feasably.

As is evident in this post, a community leader like Mongo is almost by default at odds with an in-game GM like Tal over several issues. Both are difficult positions, and as a former guild GM I must offer the following advice (assuming LL still wishes to be both an in-game guild as well as a community):

Advice:
To minimize the negative impact of bad apples, don't make people members until the whole community accepts them. Strict limitation through people who surviive a trial process approved by the GM and witnessed by as many members as possible should be the only way to gain entrance. Just because I am the son of a Lurker doesn't make me a good player.

Candidates should at a minimum possess a working knowledge of the basics of the game and if not should go to the lounge or to blizzard to get this. In addtion, they should conform to the either understood or posted rules that the guild sets up regarding coduct/looting etc.

If it were my guild, I would require both an introductory post (as well as continuing particiaption) on the guilds as well as a lengthy trial period where the individual grouped with other loungers. THIS SHOULD BE A PRE-REQ FOR MEMBERSHIP.

Having decided that this player would defiantely be an asset, as opposed to something two letters shorter, they could be invited to join the guild. This would facilitate a 2-3 tier structure similar to beta.

Conclusion:
I know it's been long winded, but I thought I'd try to present a different angle that would try to discover the wishes of the community in this sitaution as well as offer advice for possible solutions. Everyone I met in beta was not only helpful, but great fun to play with, and there's no reason why that shouldn't continue. I also really hate to see such a large rift go unchecked. Appologies for not browsing the thread earlier as I wasn't part of the in-game guild and thought this thread only had to do with that.
-MB