There will be no real PvP system

[crayhorse]

Because griefers live to grief you.

Very true. The flaw in your thinking Bolty is to believe that some honorable form of PvP play exists. PvP is inherently about denying another player what they want to accomplish, i.e. causing them grief. No matter how carefully Blizzard designed WoW, there will always be opportunities for mean-spirited players to annoy and harrass others, even on PvE servers. So it's great for non-griefers and griefers alike that Blizzard created PvP servers to attract the griefers off the PvE servers.

[Bolty]

A document that really openned my eyes to the world of players in these kinds of games is this one linked here.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm

One of the things it discusses is the fact that explorer-type personalities like Lurkers tend to be would actually tend to be the least bothered by player killers, because we as explorers tend to range off into distant lands, while player killers like to stay in zones with a high concentration of potential victims.
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Wow Mongo, that's a really great read. I've gone through it and I'm impressed with the job he did at analyzing populations.

Obviously I lean very, very strongly in the Explorer category - practically 90-95%. The other 5%-10% would be the Achiever category, as I do enjoy eventually building up my characters and seeing them kick rear in a game. (Unfortunately, the moment I achieve "kick butt" status, I become instantly bored with the character, but I'm getting off the point.) And I'm betting most Lurkers closely match my profile, simply because the very nature of this website has always attracted that type of player. While not all of us here are Explorers, a vast majority are.

However, I think you may be taking the term "Explorer" a little too literally. Explorers don't just travel to see "distant" lands (which I'd already all explored anyhow), they experiment with everything in the game. Heck, I joined the PvP server to experiment with the future PvP system that never came. As an Explorer, I wanted to try out many of the classes and be able to compare them as well.

This is very true of WoW, where there are certain zones that have a high concentration of ganking and yet when one travels outside of those zones, the frequency of ganking and griefing drops off precipitously.  Which areas are the worst?  Why, precisely the ones you mentioned -- Hillsbrad, Alterac, and I'll add Stranglethorn Vale to that.  Redridge and Duskwood on occation as players come up from Stranglethorn Vale, (but I would add that I saw plenty of defence of those two zones as well when I ventured in them with my hunter).  Venture outside those zones and you'll see very little of that griefing by level capped players that you complain so much about.
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So, what you're saying is that a level 25-ish character should go to Ashenvale? That's about the only option left. And that was only deserted because the Horde had a handful of quests there that most didn't bother doing. That is (or has already) going to change.

This gets back to the problem I've discussed with you several times -- about how you kept on creating new characters and never saw any of the higher end content.  Of course you saw a lot of griefing -- because you kept starting new characters and throwing yourself at the zones where the most griefing occured!
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And of course I kept starting new characters! I'm an Explorer - I want to see and try everything. I played Warlocks, Priests, Mages, Warriors, and Rogues, and my only regret was that I lacked the time to try out more classes. It IS a very time-consuming game, after all. In the end, I had played over 9 different characters significantly. To me, reaching level 60 and running the same instances over and over again is rediculously dull. Maybe that's why we can't see eye to eye - you are maybe 50% Explorer, 50% Achiever. You can't deny that you spent quite a lot of time running for loot and goodies. I don't mean to demean your playing style - everyone enjoys these games in a different way. However, I found myself getting tired of a character any time it got even close to the level cap. That level 39 mage I had reached the cap early on in the beta and I never played him again, as an example.

I was at a point where I could write solid play guides for 3 different classes and be a knowledgeable source for another. You might argue that one can't write a good guide for a class if they don't get them to level 60, but in reality higher level characters employ very similar tactics that mid level characters do, just in different situations. Since AFAIK only Warlocks have new spells after level 40 currently (pfft), I think I'm justified in that point.

My gameplay behavior has been similar in every other game I play. I must have made over 100 characters for Diablo II over the years, and I never took one above level 85. It seemed silly to me, when I could start with a new character, try something different, and see where it took me.

Anyway, I'm getting off the point...

Once you hit level 30, you have lots of places -- both outdoors and in instance dungeons -- where you can quest and explore without fear of the worst gankers.  Once you hit level 40, you're going to be adventuring in zones where the griefers don't tread and even if one griefer or a group of griefers did come to one zone, you'll have so many places you could go instead -- or so many places to disappear to within a given zone -- that it wouldn't matter.
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Here's my argument - so what? I know what you say is true - my level 44 Warlock in closed beta PvP was only really messed with by Rogues once I got to that level, undead Rogues especially, since I'd own everyone else. But I had to put up with weeks of unnecessary ganking to get there, which served no point other than to slow me down and provide a minor thrill to the ganker. And I don't really count Stranglethorn Vale as a gank zone. I was only killed maybe 8 to 10 times there by gankers (a small number, considering the town "safe area" is a warzone) - most deaths were by "fair" (even-level) PvP fights, which I don't mind at all, because that's what I signed up for when I joined the server.

As an Explorer personality, I'm never really going to be in for the faction raids unless I'm really bored. And if I want to "explore" PvP options, I can go to the Battlegrounds. Gankers are an irritation - I don't get mad at the players so much as I get mad at the system that allows the players to waste an hour-plus of my time while I'm "Exploring," just as you described. My attitude when being ganked is not "that F&*#ing jerk!" It's more like "well, there goes another 5 minutes; sigh..."

I had said before that the PvP server is the superior choice if Blizzard finds a way to stop or slow ganking. Since they haven't, there isn't much else I can really say now, is there, except to repeat arguments that have been given by much better debaters than myself about a hundred times? You know I agree with you about many of the good things in PvP: the heightened comraderie, better on average players, etc (see my original server choice thread).

So, I'll stand by what I said - if you read Mongo's linked article and find you're an Explorer personality like myself, you'll prefer the PvE servers.

-Bolty

[Occhidiangela]

Some snippage to tighten focus of reply.

Obviously I lean very, very strongly in the Explorer category - practically 90-95%.  However, I think you may be taking the term "Explorer" a little too literally. 
**
Explorers don't just travel to see "distant" lands (which I'd already all explored anyhow), they experiment with everything in the game. 
**
And of course I kept starting new characters!  I'm an Explorer - I want to see and try everything.  I played Warlocks, Priests, Mages, Warriors, and Rogues, and my only regret was that I lacked the time to try out more classes. 
**
Gankers are an irritation - I don't get mad at the players so much as I get mad at the system that allows the players to waste an hour-plus of my time while I'm "Exploring," just as you described.  My attitude when being ganked is not "that F&*#ing jerk!"  It's more like "well, there goes another 5 minutes; sigh..."


-Bolty
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Please forgive the snipping.

On the article and personality types. (The link elicits a "grazie mille" to Mongo Jerry.)

1. Bolty, I'd venture to assert that Variant Scum are eccentric Explorers, and even less extreme persons are the core community of LL Land, who often fit the Explorer motif. As a special request, though, could we be considered "Mozillas" rather than "Explorers?" :lol: Bill Gates is the ultimate griefer to some, eh?

From the article, in re "killers.
2.

Tilting towards killers is more difficult, because this type of player is parasitic on the other three types.  The emphasis on causing grief has to be sacrificed in favour of the thrill of the chase, and bolstered by the use of quick-thinking and skill to overcome adversity in clever (but violent) ways. In other words, this becomes an arcade ("shoot 'em up") type of game.

If this analysis is correct, and my gut says it is, can one conclude that the garden variety PK will tend to be an FPS customer for the gaming industry? If so, one way or another, these MMORPG "parasites" (Sirian, where are you with a comment on that turn of phrase ?) are catered to in the hopes of sustaining some measure of brand loyalty -- by any game company.

3. On one of Mongo Jerry's points, my response to that in a different vein.

Once you hit level 30, you have lots of places -- both outdoors and in instance dungeons -- where you can quest and explore without fear of the worst gankers.  Once you hit level 40, you're going to be adventuring in zones where the griefers don't tread and even if one griefer or a group of griefers did come to one zone, you'll have so many places you could go instead -- or so many places to disappear to within a given zone -- that it wouldn't matter.

This strikes me as the Diablo II and Diablo I equivalent of "go play passworded games if you don't want the PK's to bother you." Is this ability to "disappear" present on a full server? I must profess ignorance, which is why I ask. I envision, perhaps incorrectly, that part of the fun of the Gank Gang is to hunt down the prey. Maybe only for a small set.

I make the observation realizing that with a subscription model, server population can be reasonably controlled to ensure that Realm population density does not force players to trip all over one another, unlike the Malthusian crowding that would now and again plague bnet Realms. Or was that, again and again . . .

On Gankmeisters.

4. Gankers and D II (HC and SC) PKers, particularly those who used Trigger hacks and scroll hacks . . . they are more than an in game irritant, they are in game people, just like their targets. While it is nice that WoW is not HC for that express reason, my bile is saved for the jerk, not the game, although when loopholes are found, the non closing of them is a separate source of frustration.

Golfers will quip "it's not the putter (club), it's the putter (person putting), that is the source of three putts." Well, it takes an act of volition to PK/grief someone, and there is not infinite time and money to design a perfect online world. The lion's share of culpability lies with the parasite cum person, who deserves each and every bit of derision or abuse, or other suitable response like the D I island trapping, that he or she receives for griefing: be it PK, item snatching, kill stealing, quest disrupting, spamming, whatever.

We may have to agree to disagree, but as I see it, society is not to blame when Shorty murders Frankie: Shorty is. The same applies to the parasites if "reasonable" measures are taken to mitigate their suckage. (Imagine a large slimey lamprey . . .)

Of course, "reasonable" measure identification takes us to where you may not want this thread to go. There appears at the moment a dearth of new, salient points to harvest.

Occhi

[MongoJerry]

Wow Mongo, that's a really great read.  I've gone through it and I'm impressed with the job he did at analyzing populations.

Definitely. It's a classic paper that I understand is required reading in some computer science classes and game development companies. It'll definitely be worth a link in the community section.

So, what you're saying is that a level 25-ish character should go to Ashenvale?  That's about the only option left.  And that was only deserted because the Horde had a handful of quests there that most didn't bother doing.  That is (or has already) going to change.

If all other methods of clearing out the griefer fail and the area that a level 25ish player is playing in is indeed unplayable, then yes there is still the option for that player to go to another area for a bit. Taking your example of the level 60 mage who kept griefing you in Redridge, a level 25ish player (and level 25 is a bit high for Redridge, isn't it?) can go to Duskwood, Wetlands, Ashenvale, and Stonetalon for outdoor areas. For instance dungeons, such a player can go on Stockades and Blackfathom Deeps runs and can soon start going on Gnomeregan runs. A mid-20's level player doesn't have the options open to a mid-40's level player, but yes there are still options.

Note that this does not excuse the griefer, and I hope GM's will be given some power to suspend or ban the worst griefers. However, even for a mid-20's player, there are options.

And of course I kept starting new characters!  I'm an Explorer - I want to see and try everything.  I played Warlocks, Priests, Mages, Warriors, and Rogues, and my only regret was that I lacked the time to try out more classes.  It IS a very time-consuming game, after all.  In the end, I had played over 9 different characters significantly.  To me, reaching level 60 and running the same instances over and over again is rediculously dull.  Maybe that's why we can't see eye to eye - you are maybe 50% Explorer, 50% Achiever.  You can't deny that you spent quite a lot of time running for loot and goodies.  I don't mean to demean your playing style - everyone enjoys these games in a different way.

Holy cow! Have you ever got me pegged wrong! Would an achiever write the Adventures of Neriad stories, considering they take three times longer to write than to actually play? No way, that'd be a total waste of time for an achiever. Would an achiever write guides for other players to use? No way, an achiever wouldn't want to give away secrets (unless the person knew they'd get something back for it)! Would an achiever play a pacifist necromancer or a punching sorceress? :lol: Give me a break!

No, no, no. I'm a 60% explorer, 30% social, and 10% (at most) achiever. As far as my exploring goes, I prefer depth over breadth. I like to take certain zones, instance dungeons, and character classes (priest and to some extent hunter) and get to know every single little detail about them. For exploration purposes, I run the same instances dozens of times, because I know that there's no way that you can learn everything about an instance after only playing in it a couple times. I love figuring out tricks to dungeons and finding areas of instances that most people bypass. This can be shown in my Scholomance journals where I went through every single quest series even remotely related to Scholomance, and I had to learn about every little trick for the place and discovered quite a few of my own. (For example, to my knowledge, I was the first one to come up with the idea of ghosting through doors to get through the main gate in Stratholme. At least, I know I was the one who gave the idea to some of the more well known "achiever" types on the PvP server who went on to implement my idea -- over and over again).

Regarding running instances repeatedly, you have my motivations all wrong. I care very little about items. It is the social aspect to instances that I love. I love being in a group of five or more players and taking on a challenge together. It's the reason why I play a priest. An achiever would play a warrior or a mage, who could solo much more efficiently. As a priest player, however, I can join practically any group I want to, and along the way, I get those "thanks" from people who I heal or save. That's the stuff I crave. And it's the reason I love the PvP server more than the PvE server. People group up much more on the PvP server than on the PvE server, because the danger is greater and there's more us-vs-them comraderie.

I do get items and I certainly don't mind when I get something nice, but items are not my goal. Want to know what my three favorite items that the beta Neriad had? My favorite was the "Piccolo of the Flaming Pyre" that when activated would cause all nearby players (within 30 yards?) to start dancing. God I loved that thing! My second favorite was the Barov Family (something) trinket that called forth three servants of the Barov Family to cook, clean, and fight for you. Everytime I saw them pop out and say, "A spot of tea, gov'ner?" I just rolled with laughter. My third favorite item was my cannon trinket. I mean who wouldn't want to be able to call forth a mini-cannon?

I was at a point where I could write solid play guides for 3 different classes and be a knowledgeable source for another.  You might argue that one can't write a good guide for a class if they don't get them to level 60, but in reality higher level characters employ very similar tactics that mid level characters do, just in different situations.  Since AFAIK only Warlocks have new spells after level 40 currently (pfft), I think I'm justified in that point.

You're right that I would argue that you can't write an excellent guide for a class if you don't get them to level 60. You can write a passable guide, and I'll be happy to take anything you create, but no if you haven't gotten the character to level 60 and played it level capped a while, then you're missing a lot of the potential of your character. The most obvious thing you'll be missing is the experience with the high-end talents and the different configurations of talents that can radically alter the gameplay of your character. But aside from that, I submit that you really don't learn to play your character until you have to fight mobs that test you to the limits of your character and abilities, and that's what you see at the high levels. It's also at the high levels where you meet other highly experienced players with whom you can exchange ideas about equipment configurations, talent setups, and tactics. At the low-to-mid levels, you can get away with a lot of sloppy play, but at the levels, there's less room for error, and therefore that's where you really get to know your character. But again, this difference in our approaches shows the "depth versus breadth" philosophical difference between us.

However, I found myself getting tired of a character any time it got even close to the level cap.  That level 39 mage I had reached the cap early on in the beta and I never played him again, as an example.

Oy! I remember those level 39 level capped days. They seemed interminable, and I think that's probably why you thought I was somehow achiever oriented, because I kept running the Scarlet Monastery over and over and over again. There were some things you didn't know were going on, though. Besides the social aspects of running the instance that I found enjoyable, I got skill points and cash (actual cash or items to sell on the Cosmos auction) to support my trade skills habits. As you say, there are ways to explore a game that don't involve traveling, and one of those ways I explored was experimenting with trade skills. With Ariadne, my undead priestess at the time, I maxed out as much as was possible every trade skill that was available at the time except blacksmithing -- and I was just starting to work on that when the patch finally came out that added the PvP server.

But back to the issue at hand. Bolty, you're missing something big here, and I've tried to show it to you and everyone else here with the journals near the end of the beta. Level 60 is not the end. It is only the end of the first stage of the life of your character. Seriously, listen. This is not like Diablo II where once you killed Baal and the Cow King, there was nothing more to do. There are vast stretches of lands and huge new instances that are devoted to serving characters who are level capped. There is a lot of content now for level capped players to explore, and what's more I predict that 80% of all new content from this point forward will be targetted directly at level 60 players. The level 1-59 content is mostly done. Battlegrounds, the PvP honor system, raid instances and epic quests are going to be largely geared toward the level 60 player.

Now, the primary reward for those epic quests, PvP honor points, and raid instances will be items. At this, point, you may take a monastic approach and shun such worldly goods. Here I say that you may still be in too much of a Diablo II mode. In Diablo II, powerful items were the bread and butter of the achiever crowd. The only purpose to having a Windforce, for example, was the prestige of owning a Windforce. One certainly didn't need a Windforce or any such uber powerful items, to beat the game, as we have all shown in our own ways countless times.

However, items play a different role in WoW, especially after one is level capped. You seem to have no problem with the idea of leveling a character as a means of advancement or openning up new areas of the game to that character. But what is leveling, really? You kill enough mobs to reach a magic experience point number where you get more stats, some incrementally more powerful spells, the ability to hit enemies more easily, and the ability to dodge or resist enemy attacks more easily. What happens when you're level capped and you kill a mob that drops a really nice item? Why, you get more stats, possibly some incrementally more powerful spells (e.g. "+30 to shadow spells"), maybe the ability to hit enemies more easily, and maybe the ability to dodge or resist enemy attacks more easily. When you reach level 60, items become the means by which you continue level. You might not get that satisfying thunderous sound and gold glow that surrounds your character when you reach the next magic experience point number, but the effect is the same.

And this is Blizzard's intention. The developers have specifically said that incrementally harder and harder small-group and raid instances will be added to the game where one will need to be wearing the better items from the previous less difficult instance if one is going to have any chance of success. I didn't know what they meant until Onyxia was added. After joining raid after raid on her, it slowly sank in that in order to beat her, we needed fire resist gear. Not 20 or 30 or 50, but at least two hundred and preferably over three hundred fire resist. By the end of the beta, the group with whom I raided Onyxia, which included some high power capital A achievers, came to the same conclusion. Had we known about Onyxia ahead of time and had known we should have saved all those "junky" items that had fire resist on them, we could have won. (We got her to 63% as it was -- a little bit after she starts flying and searing the place).

And Onyxia is considered a level 1 raid instance. I don't think anyone got anywhere past the front guards of the Molten Core, and the instances -- raid and single group -- that the Blizzard developers are thinking up are going to be even harder than the two raid instances that have already been implemented. If you want to explore those high level instances, which I do, then you're going to have to spend the time gathering the best items you can from the slightly easier instances and epic quest lines that come before them.

Obtaining level 60 is not the end. It's just the start of a new phase for your character.

[Bolty]

Dang Mongo, you're good.

Okay, okay, I concede that point - your runs on the instances were not pointless Achiever-style loot-fests. :) I suppose we hit our "Explorer" modes in two different ways - you by going for exploration of content, and me by going for exploration of gameplay styles. The two ARE mutually exclusive. Unless one doesn't have a jobfe, there's only so much time to play as many characters as I did.

I disagree with your dismissal of tactics for lower level characters, and how their instances are less challenging. One problem at the lower levels is that all too often players are assisted by someone who's too powerful in their party; i.e. the level 35 who tags along on a Gnomeregan run. See, at the level cap, that doesn't come into play - those level 60 chars aren't going to be helped through the level 60 instance by a level 65.

You need just as much expert play to beat Van Cleef with a group of 18's as you do a group of 60's in the higher instances. But how often do a group of 18's actually try? That's my point there.

Finally, we were discussing the PvP server. You are claiming that PvP rewards will include items. Until that happens, I consider it a null argument because it hasn't been done. Same as guild halls in D2. :) Also, how would they balance the high-powered raids and instances for PvE'rs if they don't have access to the same items?

-Bolty

[MongoJerry]

Finally, we were discussing the PvP server.  You are claiming that PvP rewards will include items.  Until that happens, I consider it a null argument because it hasn't been done.  Same as guild halls in D2.  :)  Also, how would they balance the high-powered raids and instances for PvE'rs if they don't have access to the same items?

Oh, no, you're not going to draw me into that. The discussion of items was related to a tangential discussion. It started with me saying that the reason you kept running into griefers was that you kept making new characters and throwing yourself at the zones where the griefers hung out. Then, you said that explorers like Lurkers tend to be would tend to do that. Then, I said that's not true since really explorers tend to range far from griefers and that after the 20-30ish level hump, it's easy to explore places that don't have griefers. Then, you said, but explorers like yourself would get bored easily at the level cap and therefore would tend to make lots of new characters and would constantly find themselves in the high-griefer zones. Then, my latest response was that in fact life does not end at level 60, that there are lots of things for explorers to explore at 60, and that items become the mechanism by which one continues to level at 60.

None of this has anything to do with item differences in PvP versus PvE. In fact, I predict that there won't be any, since Blizzard developers have already said that one can earn honor points by killing NPC's. The point of my discussion was that it is in fact not true that Lurkers who try out the PvP server will always find themselves the victims of griefers. Azeroth is a large wide-open world, and it is easy to avoid or deal with the griefers if one wishes to do so.

[Bolty]

Oh, no, you're not going to draw me into that.
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Aww! :)

Then, you said that explorers like Lurkers tend to be would tend to do that.  Then, I said that's not true since really explorers tend to range far from griefers and that after the 20-30ish level hump, it's easy to explore places that don't have griefers.
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This still holds true. You and I have explored the high-grief areas to tears and have no problem instead sticking to low-grief areas, which I still claim will become almost non-existant except for instances, as more and more gankers hit the cap. However, what of Lurkers new to the game? What if they want to see all the quests in Duskwood, which you'll admit is a really fun questing area, and can't because of the gankfest that is Raven Hill? They should instead run Gnomeregan 8 times to level to 30?

Same with Stranglethorn Vale and other high-gank zones. You are once again letting griefers dictate the style of play to you. As has been pointed out in the thread already, "go to another zone" is oh-so-similar to "play in a passworded game," the backwards-logic warcry of the griefer for years.

Then, you said, but explorers like yourself would get bored easily at the level cap and therefore would tend to make lots of new characters and would constantly find themselves in the high-griefer zones.  Then, my latest response was that in fact life does not end at level 60, that there are lots of things for explorers to explore at 60, and that items become the mechanism by which one continues to level at 60.
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Doesn't this apply to both server types?

None of this has anything to do with item differences in PvP versus PvE.  In fact, I predict that there won't be any, since Blizzard developers have already said that one can earn honor points by killing NPC's.  The point of my discussion was that it is in fact not true that Lurkers who try out the PvP server will always find themselves the victims of griefers.  Azeroth is a large wide-open world, and it is easy to avoid or deal with the griefers if one wishes to do so.
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Doesn't it bother you that you can earn honor points by killing NPC's? It bothers me. NPCs are of course much easier to kill than other players. If you're Alliance, go up to the farms in the Arathi Highlands and just whack the Orcs there all day to score major points.

Of course Lurkers will not always find themselves the victims of griefers. I have quite a few times nailed the griefer who tried a move on me, or at least made him pay. And I still disagree that you can avoid them. Especially when they're mounted and you're not. There is no escape, unless you're willing to hide and do the same areas repeatedly when you're young - the very opposite of exploring.

Well, we're not going to convince each other, so I guess we're playing up to the other readers of this thread. Anyone want to comment on our discussion? It's been fairly quiet except for you and me, Mongo :)

-Bolty

[Rinnhart]

I'm hiring crack squads of dwarven rifle men to hunt you two.

Oh, they're fueling up the black helicopters right now.

NPCs are of course much easier to kill than other players.

Not in my experience.

The point of my discussion was that it is in fact not true that Lurkers who try out the PvP server will always find themselves the victims of griefers. Azeroth is a large wide-open world, and it is easy to avoid or deal with the griefers if one wishes to do so.

If you're allergic to griefers, you'd best not play on a PVP server. Eventually, even the best get jumped by someone.

Perhaps we need a concrete definition of "griefer"?

[MongoJerry]

I'm going to keep this simple, as I'm heading to bed and this thread is beginning to go in circles. Bolty and Occhi, there are two very distinct questions that relate to this thread and both of you are mixing them up. The questions are:

1. Are there things that Blizzard can and should do to make the experience of players on PvP servers better, particularly those who join the servers several months from now?<>
   
2. Can some Lurkers of the right temperment enjoy a new and different experience on the PvP servers, even if Blizzard does not make any radical changes to the PvP servers?<>
   [st]
   My answers are simple:
   
   1. Absolutely, and I can think of some ideas myself.<>
      
   2. Absolutely.<>
      [st]
      Saying that there are things that a Lurker can do to avoid the worst griefers is not the same as condoning the griefers' actions or the same as saying that Blizzard should not make any changes. It is saying that in the worst case scenario that a severe griefer is rampaging an area, a Lurker who wishes to experience the PvP server does have options at his or her disposal and can still enjoy him or herself.
      
      And, Bolty, regarding what you believe the servers will be like several months from now, I simply summarize my arguments made above.
      
      1. We have already seen what a PvP server looks like after months of being open, and while problems existed particularly in a few select areas, they were not all-pervasive problems. (Keep in mind that I started my Hunter late in the beta, so yes I do have experience with what a new player would experience on the server).<>
         
      2. Once one gets high enough in level (say, 40ish), the available space allowed for a person to explore and adventure in becomes too large for true griefers to affect an individual significantly.<>
         
      3. Similarly, the real griefers tend to focus on the lower level areas with a high concentration of potential victims who have no chance of defending themselves, so once you get out of those areas, the amount of genuine griefing one sees is minimal.<>
         
      4. If Blizzard adds more engaging high level content like battlegrounds, a PvP honor system, epic quests, and new high level instances and raids, then the number of level capped players who grief out of boredom will be lessened, leaving the griefing to only the genuine deviants.
         
         And I will add two more notes that summarize what I would like to say at a future time:
         
         <>
         
      5. Blizzard should deal with the deviants.<>
         
      6. PvP servers can be enjoyable for some but not enjoyable for all. The fact that they are not enjoyable for all does not mean that they cannot be enjoyed by some.<>
         [st]
         Once again, I do not count being attacked by a person or group of roughly your level as "griefing." If you did not want to fight members of the other faction, then you wouldn't be on the PvP server in the first place. An example of true griefing would be the level 60 mage who ran around the lake in Redridge, slaughtering all the level 20ish players, for hours and days on end.

[Occhidiangela]

Similarly, the real griefers tend to focus on the lower level areas with a high concentration of potential victims who have no chance of defending themselves, so once you get out of those areas, the amount of genuine griefing one sees is minimal.  If Blizzard adds more engaging high level content like battlegrounds, a PvP honor system, epic quests, and new high level instances and raids, then the number of level capped players who grief out of boredom will be lessened, leaving the griefing to only the genuine deviants.

**
Once again, I do not count being attacked by a person or group of roughly your level as "griefing."  If you did not want to fight members of the other faction, then you wouldn't be on the PvP server in the first place. An example of true griefing would be the level 60 mage who ran around the lake in Redridge, slaughtering all the level 20ish players, for hours and days on end.

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From the article, and from my own interacting with a variety of griefers on line, I will offer you this: It is not boredom that induces the high level ganker to grief. While you make some very good points overall, on this issue you seem to be measuring their wheat with your bushel, which strikes me as unsound reasoning. The griefer/killer has fun effing with other people: that is why he is in the game. Fun is where you find it, and that is where he finds his fun.

My other question is: do you see the vicious circle you require the low to mid level PvP quester to indulge in?

Once one gets high enough in level (say, 40ish), the available space allowed for a person to explore and adventure in becomes too large for true griefers to affect an individual significantly.
Similarly, the real griefers tend to focus on the lower level areas with a high concentration of potential victims who have no chance of defending themselves, so once you get out of those areas, the amount of genuine griefing one sees is minimal.

COnsider: How does one get to 40ish if the questing areas and the building block areas, poarticularly those known to harbor good quest/item matches, are infected with harassment day in and day out? How much time and emotion does one invest in the game? Part of the answer is "party up, in numbers there is strength."

Against AoE spells? Your selection of a mage as griefer is spot on.

You bunch up on any battlefield, and the Siege Artillery, or the Cluster munitions, grind you up in groups. The dispersed squad TTP's used by skirmishers may be the only scheme that "trying to survive the gank" groups distill down to, and that is assuming a small or single unit griefing force. A sizeable mix of AoE spell casters will fix you and f*** you easily. (From my real life definition of Close Air Support: Find 'em, fix 'em, frag 'em is the family friendly version.) Their only problem is to find you, and if there is a natural channelization to certain spots, you enter the engagement under TAC SIT One: found.

"Once you get out of those areas." Exactly. An entire set of guides on "how to deal with arseholes" probably need to be written. :w00t: That's one I won't have time for, I have arseholes aplenty to deal with on my day job, don't need that in my leisure activity.

Each gamer has a threshold of harassment "up with which he will put," on his own dime, before it aint fun anymore. Then, color him gone, unless we are talking obsessive compulsive disorder. (All Loungers probably have that to a certain degree from the get go!)

Glad to see you reinforce the excellent point that on PvP servers, partying up is an imperative, and not just for instances. Perhaps the player who prefers the chance of failure/loss has the grit and gaming mindset to figure out a way past the arseholes. Imagination and innovation are then what is tested, which takes us back to the relative mixture of Explorer/Achiever in a given gamer.

Fun is indeed where you find it. :D

Occhi

[LochnarITB]

Similarly, the real griefers tend to focus on the lower level areas with a high concentration of potential victims who have no chance of defending themselves, so once you get out of those areas, the amount of genuine griefing one sees is minimal.
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Occhi has already commented on this better than I would be able to. I just wanted to say that I have been following this thread and this is the point that I always got stuck on. How many people are going to put up with the griefers long enough to get out of these areas? When people get frustrated with spending more time being killed than building their character, they are going to lay the blame on Blizzard. "Why don't they do something about those ***holes?!"

[MongoJerry]

From the article, and from my own interacting with a variety of griefers on line, I will offer you this:  It is not boredom that induces the high level ganker to grief.  While you make some very good points overall, on this issue you seem to be measuring their wheat with your bushel, which strikes me as unsound reasoning.  The griefer/killer has fun effing with other people: that is why he is in the game.  Fun is where you find it, and that is where he finds his fun.

You first simplify my already simplified argument and then try to counter it. That doesn't fly. I said already that there are two types of griefers: Bored level-capped players and true deviants. Bolty's fear of a flood of griefers months from now comes from a fear that there will be a wave of bored level-capped players. My response was that if Blizzard publishes more high end content as they have said they plan to -- battlegrounds, PvP honor system, level capped instance dungeons, and level capped raid content -- then the population of bored level 60 players will be smaller than he thinks and therefore the number of griefers will be smaller. Note that I say smaller and not eliminated entirely. One will then be left with the true deviants.

Blizzard should deal with the deviants.

But even if they don't, the available world is too big, even for a level 25ish character, for the comparatively small number of true deviants to really prevent a person from adventuring and leveling. One might have to choose to work on a different quest series than one had planned to work on at the time, but one will not be prevented from leveling or adventuring.

What disturbs me about Bolty's comments in this thread is the "sky is falling" attitude that would give the impression to a player who has never played on a PvP server that griefing is a regular and pervasive occurance that one can't do anything about -- like, say, PK'ing on the Diablo II servers. Understand that I was one of the most vocal opponents of PK'ing in Diablo II, and some of my sentences on PK'ing on hardcore servers actually got integrated into (read: plagerized by) Sirian's famous diatribe. The situation isn't nearly as dire as in Diablo II, and I found myself surprised by how much I enjoyed playing on the WoW PvP server after the experiencing the cesspool of Diablo II. Very briefly (and I want to expand on this more in an upcoming guide), if one *does* find out through the general chat channel that there's a higher level character in the area killing lower level characters, there are things that one can do and things that actually *do* happen:

1. Group up. There is safety in numbers, and a group of lower levels can kill a higher level character. For example, a small group of level 30's can take down a level 40. It won't help against a level 60, but it will help against the griefers who are, say, 10 levels above you.

2. Call in a higher level guildie. Other more active guilds do this a lot, and I was happy to see many areas I leveled in with my hunter protected by higher level guardians. I put in my time of guarding areas like Duskwood myself. I wish more Lurkers would play on the PvP server so that we could start protecting each other. The act of slowing down a griefer is beneficial in itself, and if a griefer gets stopped too many times, the true griefer will tend to go to a different area where there is easier prey.

3. Page a GM after the griefer dies three times. There is a "three deaths and you're out" policy, and it is incumbant on the GM's to follow through on enforcing that policy.

4. Work on a different set of quests than you had planned on. Playing on the PvP server requires a bit of flexibility on a player's part. A single griefer can only exert a local zone of control of an area, and there are lots of places to quest in any zone that would not run into any given griefer. The only way a an entire zone could be griefed is with a full griefing team, but true deviant griefers are usually antisocial, and anyway if a team does show up, usually zone defence is not far behind. If the griefing really gets to be so bad that you really can't quest at all in a given zone, then as mentioned previously there are plenty of other zones -- outdoors and instances -- where one can go to.

Again, PvP servers are not for everyone, since you have to have somewhat of a thick skin to play there. But at the same time, if one has the right temperment, one can have an enormous amount of fun on those servers that one wouldn't get on the PvE servers. The commraderie among strangers and the level of play is much higher there, and I don't want Lurkers to miss out on the fun simply because of Bolty's "sky is falling" diatribes. If, like Bolty, you like to make a new character every time you reach your mid-30's and if you insist on playing in the worst griefer zones and if you have no flexibility on what order you complete quests, then you're going to have a miserable time. If, however, you are a flexible person, have a little bit of a thick skin, and actually level up your character, you might find the PvP servers to be enjoyable.

COnsider:  How does one get to 40ish if the questing areas and the building block areas, poarticularly those known to harbor good quest/item matches, are infected with harassment day in and day out?  How much time and emotion does one invest in the game?  Part of the answer is "party up, in numbers there is strength." 

Against AoE spells?  Your selection of a mage as griefer is spot on.

Your ensuing battlefield analogy is entertaining but irrelevant. The real life frag bombs you spoke about cover an area of a square kilometer or more whereas a mage's AoE spell only affects a radius of 10 yards. What's more, the mage has to stand in the middle of the enemy party to get it to work, and a mage that does that is a dead mage.

"Once you get out of those areas."  Exactly.  An entire set of guides on "how to deal with arseholes" probably need to be written. &nbsp; :w00t:  That's one I won't have time for, I have arseholes aplenty to deal with on my day job, don't need that in my leisure activity.

I've been actively thinking of making a guide like this called, "How to play on a PvP server and have more fun." The trouble is, I keep getting sucked into the circular arguments in this thread. Oy!

[MongoJerry]

Occhi has already commented on this better than I would be able to.  I just wanted to say that I have been following this thread and this is the point that I always got stuck on.  How many people are going to put up with the griefers long enough to get out of these areas?  When people get frustrated with spending more time being killed than building their character, they are going to lay the blame on Blizzard.  "Why don't they do something about those ***holes?!"

You are also subtly mixing up the two questions I stated above. You're taking my discussion of the second question and acting like it's the answer to the first.

1. Are there things that Blizzard can and should do to make the experience of players on PvP servers better, particularly those who join the servers several months from now?

Yes, there are things that Blizzard should do, and that is a worthy topic in its own right. That, however, is not the topic under discussion. If one wants to talk about what Blizzard should do, then I suggest that a new thread should be created so that this discussion stops going around in circles.

2.  Can some Lurkers of the right temperment enjoy a new and different experience on the PvP servers, even if Blizzard does not make any radical changes to the PvP servers?

But this is the real subject of this thread and is the question that I have been focused on. The part of my post you quoted was part of my answer to explain to Lurkers that in fact the situation is not nearly as dire as Bolty makes it out to be. Bolty is like a guy who dresses up in fancy clothes, walks through a known high-crime neigborhood, gets mugged, and extrapolates that event to claim that the crime rate is insanely high across the country. I'm saying that I've seen more areas of the game than he has and letting Lurkers know that the situation isn't nearly as dire as Bolty makes it out to be. If you are a Lurker who is struggling on the PvP server, then I'm telling you now to be flexible and stick it out. The situation does get better. Oh, and despite the occational problems, the PvP server can be a heck of a lot of fun.

[Occhidiangela]

Please forgive snippies.

Bored level-capped players and true deviants.&nbsp; Note that I say smaller and not eliminated entirely.&nbsp; One will then be left with the true deviants.

Blizzard should deal with the deviants.

Check.

But even if they don't, the available world is too big, even for a level 25ish character, for the comparatively small number of true deviants to really prevent a person from adventuring and leveling.&nbsp; One might have to choose to work on a different quest series than one had planned to work on at the time, but one will not be prevented from leveling or adventuring.

Yep, I'd hop from game to game in D II avoiding hasslers, and was able to play as much HC as I wanted by keeping a weather eye out for arseholes. The occasional complete arse sprang from game to game now and agin. You'd see the same guy keep cropping up in a dozen games and hostiling everyone with his Trigger Hacked Amazon. That was indeed uncommon in my experience, others may have seen it more frequently than me. The first few times I got PK'd was due to my own carelessness or inattention to the environment. When the scroll and Trigger hacks proliferated, HC simply got to be too much arse pain.

Understand that I was one of the most vocal opponents of PK'ing in Diablo II, and some of my sentences on PK'ing on hardcore servers actually got integrated into (read: plagerized by) Sirian's famous diatribe.&nbsp; The situation isn't nearly as dire as in Diablo II, and I found myself surprised by how much I enjoyed playing on the WoW PvP server after the experiencing the cesspool of Diablo II.

Check. Was that back when Occhi and Ariel

*ANDARIEL! Who runs around naked and spits poison*

would find one another in the same thread at the Lounge? :w00t:

3.&nbsp; Page a GM after the griefer dies three times. There is a "three deaths and you're out" policy, and it is incumbant on the GM's to follow through on enforcing that policy.

My brain did not wrap around that too well. If a Griefer kills me three times, I am out or he is out? Or, do I have to mug him with my gang three times and call a GM to dispose of the corpse?

4.&nbsp; Work on a different set of quests than you had planned on.&nbsp;

Bang. That sore point some folks won't want to budge on, however, if they are that hardover on it, then PvP servers are indeed not for them, RP of PVE are.
Can't agree with you more that "Again, PvP servers are not for everyone."

Your ensuing battlefield analogy is entertaining but irrelevant.&nbsp; The real life frag bombs you spoke about cover an area of a square kilometer or more whereas a mage's AoE spell only affects a radius of 10 yards.&nbsp;

Suggest you not try to wrestle with a bear in his own cave, though perhaps you don't get what I mean by CAS. Cluster munitions come in all shapes and sizes and AOE, as do HE rounds. They are not all ATACMS, which take out half a grid square (1/2 a square kilo) a piece if all works well. Nor was I referring to carpet bombing, I was referring to CAS: Close Air Support. CAS is not about covering grid squares with cluster munitions, that is a Air Interdiciton (or Battlefield Air Interdiction if you are a NATO sort.) CAS is Close Air Support, not infrequently Danger Close (a few hundred meters from own troops) and I was using it in the modern, not WW II 1944 "Let's Bomb our own troops and the enemy in Normandy," sense. Not irrelevant, very tactically germane, and as relevant with an 81 mm mortar as with a 500# GP bomb as with a battery six of 155mm shells.

What's more, the mage has to stand in the middle of the enemy party to get it to work, and a mage that does that is a dead mage.

You seem to have skimmed the skirmisher model I suggested as the counter to AOE killers, and went straight to "AoE versus a clump" picture. I probably should have expanded a bit further on the thin mention of the team (albeit small) of PK mages, who use the synergy of differing spells to fix and frag their targets. I would not expect a single mage to pull it off, due to spell cool down times, a factor that did not register in my head while making the previous post.

I've been actively thinking of making a guide like this called, "How to play on a PvP server and have more fun."&nbsp; The trouble is, I keep getting sucked into the circular arguments in this thread.&nbsp; Oy!

Got it.

Your experiences on the PvP realm point to a glass half full. I will not pretend to predict the arsehole density on any given server, though I imagine that the grapevine should do a pretty good job of putting the word out on a realm by realm basis.

Your assessment is that the grief PK is, due to being generally antisocial, less likely to cluster, even in small groups. I assume that the gang mentality translates pretty darned well onto the internet, and that the healthy Killers will be doing as you suggest if the content shows up, and that the "deviants" will find enough kindred spirits to cause hate and discontent. I cannot predict whether or not Blizz will do as you suggest -- I support your position on that in any case -- and deal with deviants. I must admit I like what they did to the botters yesterday.

Will population density be low enough to provide "lebensraum?" Your judgment meets my "good enough" standard. The "glass half full" position has room on the table with "chicken little." :lol: And since I already bought the game, and intend to put a critter, probably after Christmas, onto Tichondrius, I am not in the same side of the argument of as Bolty anyway.

Occhi

[Skandranon]

You seem to have skimmed the skirmisher model I suggested as the counter to AOE killers, and went straight to "AoE versus a clump" picture.&nbsp; I probably should have expanded a bit further on the thin mention of the team (albeit small) of PK mages, who use the synergy of differing spells to fix and frag their targets.&nbsp; I would not expect a single mage to pull it off, due to spell cool down times, a factor that did not register in my head while making the previous post.

Occhi, I still can't see how even a full party of mages could do it if they wanted to use AoE spells. You, I think, like many new players, are vastly overestimating the capability of the mage's AoE arsenal. If mages are going to grief, they're going to do it with fireballs, frostbolts, arcane missiles - not AoE stuff that can be avoided with a little movement. Fix them? With what? Polymorph regens them to full HP immediately and the first hit from an AoE spell pops them out of sheep form (plus, the random wandering of the sheep offers a distinct chance of the AoE missing). Frost Nova goes back to the problem of the mage in the middle of everyone (who'd scatter as he came in) and the first spell would shatter the ice, freeing everyone to move again. The worst that could happen would be someone's 3-point Improved Blizzard, but even so, the most panicky, disorganized scatter will clear them out of the way. And that's not even mentioning how AoE damage tends to be slightly to vastly inferior to single-target damage.

The scenario for a team of mages griefing is something like: party of mages engages party of targets. Each mage sheeps an opponent. All of them cast fireballs on one sheep at time for instant kills. No AoE.

[Occhidiangela]

Occhi, I still can't see how even a full party of mages could do it if they wanted to use AoE spells.&nbsp; You, I think, like many new players, are vastly overestimating the capability of the mage's AoE arsenal.&nbsp; If mages are going to grief, they're going to do it with fireballs, frostbolts, arcane missiles - not AoE stuff that can be avoided with a little movement.&nbsp; Fix them?&nbsp; With what?&nbsp; Polymorph regens them to full HP immediately and the first hit from an AoE spell pops them out of sheep form (plus, the random wandering of the sheep offers a distinct chance of the AoE missing).&nbsp; Frost Nova goes back to the problem of the mage in the middle of everyone (who'd scatter as he came in) and the first spell would shatter the ice, freeing everyone to move again.&nbsp; The worst that could happen would be someone's 3-point Improved Blizzard, but even so, the most panicky, disorganized scatter will clear them out of the way.&nbsp; And that's not even mentioning how AoE damage tends to be slightly to vastly inferior to single-target damage.

The scenario for a team of mages griefing is something like: party of mages engages party of targets.&nbsp; Each mage sheeps an opponent.&nbsp; All of them cast fireballs on one sheep at time for instant kills.&nbsp; No AoE.
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Thanks for clearing that up.

We'll see what the preferred griefer choice of char is, I suspect, as the game matures. It may be a Parcel of Rogues, for all I know. :D

[MongoJerry]

My brain did not wrap around that too well. If a Griefer kills me three times, I am out or he is out? Or, do I have to mug him with my gang three times and call a GM to dispose of the corpse?

The second case. After an invader dies three times, they are supposed to leave the area for an hour, and the GM's are supposed to forcefully enforce this if the person does not comply voluntarily. This depends on the responsiveness of the GM, so one's mileage will vary greatly, but it is supposed to be an option. The rule was put in primarily to keep mass raids from continuously invading a town, but it does also apply to individuals and small groups.

Your assessment is that the grief PK is, due to being generally antisocial, less likely to cluster, even in small groups.  I assume that the gang mentality translates pretty darned well onto the internet, and that the healthy Killers will be doing as you suggest if the content shows up, and that the "deviants" will find enough kindred spirits to cause hate and discontent.  I cannot predict whether or not Blizz will do as you suggest -- I support your position on that in any case -- and deal with deviants.  I must admit I like what they did to the botters yesterday.

Ah, yes, I was considering the solo griefer. It may sound counterintuitive, but I consider team griefers to be less of a problem. First, teams of griefers are harder to form and they are unlikely to last as long in an area as an individual. Some members of the party will have real life stuff that will make them have to leave and/or some of them will not be as deviant as other people and will get bored faster than others.

But second and more importantly, teams of griefers tend to bring about teams of defenders. Let's take Bolty's experience of one level 60 undead mage running around the lake in Redridge. When level 60's puttering around Ironforge hear about this, the typcial responses are, "Bah, it's not worth it," "It's too far away," and "It'll be a pain chasing that guy around," etc. On occation, a lowbie person adventuring in Redridge in this situation will have a high level friend who helps him or her out, but for the most part, one member of the other faction running around a lowbie area isn't going to illicit much response from high level potential defenders.

However, the situation changes greatly as the size of the enemy party increases. The more people in the enemy party, the more likely those same level 60's in Ironforge are going to think to themselves, "Hey! This could be fun!" The bigger the enemy party, the less time one is going to have to spend running around hunting down the enemy party. (The larger the invading party, the easier it is to find). There are also (obviously) more targets to kill, so it becomes more worth it to travel to whatever location is being invaded. Finally, there's also the social aspect of it, as people on the PvP servers I've found tend to be very social. If the enemy party is large, then it's easier to message some friends and say, "Hey! Raid on Redridge! Let's head down!" In my estimation, a party of one or two invaders will not illicit much response. A party of three or four can be stable for a little bit, but eventually someone will call in some high level friends to help out if the invading party causes too much trouble. An invading party of five or more will bring in high level strangers to help almost immediately.

[Boutros]

Some very interesting points being made here on both sides. I'm playing on Tichondrius, but having only reached level 24 I can hardly say I've experienced the length and breadth of the PvP system. Yet I am enjoying myself, not just enjoying the game but some of the aspects that arise from PvP servers in particular. I especially have come to enjoy the sense of camaraderie among Horde players, and the us vs. them attitude, and I've had some PvP encounters that were loads of fun. However, I think I have yet to experience any serious greifing. Several of my ventures into Hillsbrad have resulted in my laying face down in a ditch, getting laughed at by mounted alliance, but I have never had my corpse camped or experienced anything that I would call out and out griefing. I don't even particularly blame the alliance members who slayed me. I wouldn't go out of my way to murder lowbies, but if I happened across Alliance who I had a chance against in contested territory I'd probably try to slay them (though probably not if they were much lower than me). And on the other hand I've seen level ?? alliance run right past me while I was questing in Stonetalon and Ashenvale, without giving me even a second glance. These might just be nice people who don't attack lower level characters, but I think it more likely that they had quests of their own, so they didn't have time to kill me. They were likely achievers who were being kept busy by abundant content, not killers looking to destroy anyone they come across.

I suppose there are likely a number of quests from Tarren Mill that I will never complete on account of them being too difficult in a PvP environment, but there are lots of other places I want to explore just as much as Hillsbrad. I still have parts of the Southern Barrens and Ashenvale, and Stonetalon to quest in, and I still need to finally complete Shadowfang Keep, so I can get a look at Blackfathom Deeps and Razorfen Kraul. Perhaps there are some who wouldn't be able to overcome not being able to quest in an area without difficulty, but I guess my personality lets me keep it from bothering me. After all, I know I'm never going to complete every quest and see every part of the world, but there is still plenty that I know I will see that keeps me interested. My opinions could no doubt change over time, but thus far I'm enjoying my PvP server greatly, honor system or not. Though I do echo Mongo's sentiment that we could use more lurkers on the PvP server. The 2-3 (active) person guild is nice, but does not facilitate easy group finding.