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Refrigerator · 11-02-2004, 06:24 AM

No, this time it isn't me that needs help. :D
My friend's website has a problem: It doesn't display correctly in mozilla. I don't really want to post a DIRECT link to the site as she's using geocities and the amount of traffic from this place might be a bad thing, I dunno...

But, the code that I think isn't working right, is..:

<body>
<table CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="0" BORDER="0" LEFTMARGIN=0 TOPMARGIN=0 MARGINWIDTH=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0 CLASS="x">
<tr>
<td nowrap background="Top-Left.bmp" width=329 height=219 style="background-repeat: no-repeat;">
</td>
<td nowrap background="Top-Middle.bmp" width=200 height=119 style="background-repeat: no-repeat;">
</td>
<td nowrap background="Top-Middle-Right.bmp" width=200 height=119 style="background-repeat: no-repeat;">

</td>
<td nowrap background="Top-Right.bmp" width=214 height=119 style="background-repeat: no-repeat;">
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td background="Bottom-Top-Top.bmp" width=329 height=95 style="background-repeat: no-repeat;">
</td>
<td colspan="2">
</td>

<td background="Right.bmp" width=119 height=94 style="background-repeat: no-repeat;">
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td background="Bottom-Top-Bottom.bmp" width=319 height=94 style="background-repeat: no-repeat;">
</td>
<td colspan="3">
</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td background="Bottom-Bottom-Top.bmp" width=319 height=94 style="background-repeat: no-repeat;">
</td>
<td colspan="3">
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td background="Bottom-Bottom-Bottom.bmp" width=319 height=94 style="background-repeat: no-repeat;">
</td>

<td colspan="3">
</td>
</tr>
</table>

<table class="y">
<tr>
<td width="15"></td>
<td>
<div align="left">

<table width="396" height="715">
<tr>

</center></td> </tr>
<table width="300" height="380" bgcolor="#000000" style="border: 1px solid #800000; filter: alpha(opacity : 65);">
<tr><td>
<div class="entry">

<iframe width="290" height="370" src="http://www.geocities.com/dbs_newbie/Updates.html" name="update" frameborder="1" scrolling="auto" allowtransparency="true" style="filter:chroma (color=blue)"></iframe>

<div align="center">
</div>
</tr></td>
</table>

I personally have no freaking clue what all this means, or why it doesn't work for me. in mozilla. I know what it's supposed to do. It's supposed to put a bunch of images up in a sort of inverted L in the top left corner.

Yes, I know, they're .bmps, I'm working on that with her... :angry: They'll soon be .gifs that are a fraction of the size.

Just tell me if you need any more information, and thanks for any help!

Tal · 11-02-2004, 01:43 PM

Refrigerator,Nov 2 2004, 02:24 AM Wrote:No, this time it isn't me that needs help.  :D
My friend's website has a problem:  It doesn't display correctly in mozilla.  I don't really want to post a DIRECT link to the site as she's using geocities and the amount of traffic from this place might be a bad thing, I dunno...

But, the code that I think isn't working right, is..:

I personally have no freaking clue what all this means, or why it doesn't work for me. in mozilla.  I know what it's supposed to do.  It's supposed to put a bunch of images up in a sort of inverted L in the top left corner.

Yes, I know, they're .bmps, I'm working on that with her... :angry: They'll soon be .gifs that are a fraction of the size.

Just tell me if you need any more information, and thanks for any help!
[right][snapback]58928[/snapback][/right]

I'm a visual person and really need to see the site as is before I can start tracking down the problem. I usually load the site into mozilla and then examine the code. If you're worried about it taking down the site from traffic feel free to PM me the link and I'll look at it.

kandrathe · Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio.

I'm no longer a big fan of using tables to position graphics. Check out this website; CSS Zen Garden

With the web pages I'm working on, we are pushing all style related information into the (.css) style sheet, including relative or absolute positions of graphical elements. You might want to research the bugs in IE, and work arounds.

Also, your document will act differently in different browsers if you do not declare it's DOM type. Such as;

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en" >
<head></head>
<body></body>
</html>

Edit: ... and I second Tal, without the graphics I cannot tell what is broken.

Zarathustra · 11-02-2004, 06:14 PM

Refrigerator,Nov 2 2004, 12:24 AM Wrote:I don't really want to post a DIRECT link to the site as she's using geocities and the amount of traffic from this place might be a bad thing, I dunno...
[right][snapback]58928[/snapback][/right]

You could always snap screenshots of what it SHOULD look like (using IE or Netscape) and then go in with Mozilla and snap another one. Then just host them at http://www.savefile.com and show us what's going on.

Refrigerator · 11-03-2004, 02:37 AM

I'm just going to reply to myself here.

Thanks for the replies! I'll PM her site address to you two (and anyone else who wants to help, post and I'll PM it to you too. More minds = better? Yes. :)

I guess I'll give you her e-mail too, because trying to explain it to me is sort of pointless :lol:
When it comes to stuff like this, I'm lost

Just don't sign her up for spam or anything. :D :ph34r:

Okay, everything done? Tell me if I forgot something. Whee!

Solostaran · 11-03-2004, 10:18 PM

I also will most likely need to see a link to figure out the real problem, but I can tell you this upfront, filters are proprietary IE objects, thus, they obviously won't work with FireFox. I posted the code where she uses filters. I also have never seen the allowtransparency="" attribute. Feel free to add me to the list of people to PM if you would like me to take a closer look.

Code:
<table width="300" height="380" bgcolor="#000000" style="border: 1px solid #800000; filter: alpha(opacity : 65);">

...

<iframe width="290" height="370" src="http://www.geocities.com/dbs_newbie/Updates.html" name="update" frameborder="1" scrolling="auto" allowtransparency="true" style="filter:chroma (color=blue)"></iframe>

Moldran · 11-04-2004, 02:58 AM

Quote:Also, your document will act differently in different browsers if you do not declare it's DOM type.

One more note on this: If you want to trigger a specific browser mode for a certain browser (i.e. Firefox "Standards Compliance Mode"), lookup exactly how they react to different doctypes. The doctype evaluation behaves somewhat "strange".

Erigion · 11-07-2004, 12:49 AM

http://validator.w3.org/

That's a helpful link for every web designer.

Tommi · 11-08-2004, 09:08 AM

Refrigerator,Nov 2 2004, 08:24 AM Wrote:<table class="y">
<tr>
<td width="15"></td>
<td>
<div align="left">

<table width="396" height="715">
                <tr>

</center></td> </tr>

1. Missing: <td>, <center> before the closing tags
2. Missing: <td> for the <table width="396" height="715">

Quote:<table width="300" height="380" bgcolor="#000000" style="border: 1px solid #800000; filter: alpha(opacity : 65);">
<tr><td>
<div class="entry">

<iframe width="290" height="370" src="http://www.geocities.com/dbs_newbie/Updates.html" name="update" frameborder="1" scrolling="auto" allowtransparency="true" style="filter:chroma (color=blue)"></iframe>

<div align="center">
</div>
</tr></td>
</table>

1. Unneccessary <div>
2. </tr> and </td> in the wrong order.
3. Missing two </td></tr></table> in the end (for <table width="396" height="715"> and <table class="y">).

Cheers!

11-14-2004, 05:59 PM

I doubt it's the problem but have they considered putting the table values in quotes, and defining what unit they are using, such as % or px?

Leshy · 11-16-2004, 12:29 PM

Moldran,Nov 4 2004, 03:58 AM Wrote:One more note on this: If you want to trigger a specific browser mode for a certain browser (i.e. Firefox "Standards Compliance Mode"), lookup exactly how they react to different doctypes. The doctype evaluation behaves somewhat "strange".
[right][snapback]59151[/snapback][/right]

Not really. Just be sure to use the full DTD, including an URL referring to it's location to trigger standards mode in MSIE, Mozilla/Firefox and Opera, such as this one for XHTML 1.0:

Quote:<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">

If you omit the DTD altogether, all browsers will switch to quirksmode, whereas I believe both Opera and Firefox have a so-called "Almost-Standards" mode which can be activated by using a DTD without the URL.

Simply be sure to add a full Document Type Definition to your pages, ditch tables for anything besides presenting tabular data and all will be relatively well :)

Fragbait · 11-16-2004, 03:09 PM

Erigion,Nov 7 2004, 02:49 AM Wrote:http://validator.w3.org/

That's a helpful link for every web designer.
[right][snapback]59493[/snapback][/right]

:lol:
Just for the fun of it: type in www.microsoft.com once and compare to www.mozilla.org ...
:D

Thought I'd share..

Greetings, Fragbait

Moldran · 11-18-2004, 12:37 PM

Leshy,Nov 16 2004, 01:29 PM Wrote:Not really. Just be sure to use the full DTD, including an URL referring to it's location to trigger standards mode in MSIE, Mozilla/Firefox and Opera, such as this one for XHTML 1.0:If you omit the DTD altogether, all browsers will switch to quirksmode, whereas I believe both Opera and Firefox have a so-called "Almost-Standards" mode which can be activated by using a DTD without the URL.

No. Most browsers use standards mode for most (not all) 'strict' doctypes, but use quirks mode for most (not all) 'transitional' doctypes.
Furthermore, the browsers do behave differently. For example, IE uses quirks mode for some doctypes where other browsers use standards mode (e.g. certain - perfectly valid! - XML doctypes). If you use a HTML 4.0 doctype, the behaviour of browsers also differs alot.
Also note that including a URL referring to a DTD is not necessary for a doctype declaration to be valid, and in some cases also not necessary to trigger standards mode. If Firefox finds a doctype without a URL, it will go into standards mode for *some* doctypes, but into almost standards or quirks mode for others. On the other hand, it is also not true that every valid doctype declaration with a URL will trigger standards mode in Firefox, and the behaviour of other browser differs from that again.
And so on, and so on... there are alot of inconsistencies. If you really want to trigger a specific a browser mode, you must inform yourself in detail about the behaviour of the browser in question, or just test it.
The very concept of doctype sniffing sucks, if you ask me... but I guess we have to live with it for the next few years...

Quote:Simply be sure to add a full Document Type Definition to your pages, ditch tables for anything besides presenting tabular data and all will be relatively well :)
[right][snapback]60301[/snapback][/right]

Unfortunately, there are still some situations where you have to use tables for your layout. CSS and the support for it is still far from being perfect, even in modern browsers :-/ One should try to avoid using tables for layout purposes whenever possible, though.

Leshy · 11-18-2004, 10:25 PM

Moldran,Nov 18 2004, 01:37 PM Wrote:No. Most browsers use standards mode for most (not all) 'strict' doctypes, but use quirks mode for most (not all) 'transitional' doctypes.

Not really. The only browser which triggers Quirks mode on a Transitional document with URL is Mozilla/Firefox, on HTML 4.00. The presence of a URL is in fact the deciding factor in most cases.

Granted, it's not very pretty as you can see here, but generally using a full doctype switches all browsers into the same mode, or at least very similar ones.

Quote:For example, IE uses quirks mode for some doctypes where other browsers use standards mode (e.g. certain - perfectly valid! - XML doctypes).

This is a known bug in MSIE - it is caused by having any form of content before the DTD, such as a comment or an XML prolog. Removing it will also trigger Standards mode in MSIE6.

Quote:And so on, and so on... there are alot of inconsistencies.

That, I will grant you. However, for the most relevant document types, being HTML 4.01 and XHTML 1.0, the behaviour across browsers is fairly consistent. Having a full DTD with URL is the best choice for predicting how browsers will render your code.

As much as DTD sniffing is annoying, yes. Another nice piece of MS legacy :rolleyes:

Quote:Unfortunately, there are still some situations where you have to use tables for your layout.

Only if you design your page graphically and demand to make everything fit and look exactly the same across all browsers. Which is, imho, the wrong design approach :)

Although I'll fully grant that tables are an easier solution when you're having issues with vertical positioning.

Moldran · 11-19-2004, 11:51 AM

Quote:Granted, it's not very pretty as you can see here, but generally using a full doctype switches all browsers into the same mode, or at least very similar ones.

'Generally', and 'very similiar' modes, yes. But if you really rely on it, you have to look up the behaviour of the broswer you want to put in a certain mode, because there *are* exceptions, and quite a few of them.

Quote:This is a known bug in MSIE - it is caused by having any form of content before the DTD, such as a comment or an XML prolog. Removing it will also trigger Standards mode in MSIE6.

Unless you send the document as XML in stead of text/html with an XML declaration, in which case the behaviour is *again* different.

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