Digital Camera Advice

[Munkay]

They say everyone grows up to resemble their parents and thier upbringing in some form or another. My father has been an avid photographer for my entire life, and was one of the first people to go 'digital' with a top of the line 2.1 megapixel Olympus that costed astronomical amounts at the time. Well that was a very long time ago and since then he's moved on to digital leica digilux, and is in the process of getting a Digital Canon Rebel to 'test' out.

Of course the dinosaur Olympus is what I've been using for years, and it's always served me well. I'm not looking to invest lots of money into a new digital camera, but at the same time I want at least equal shooting power to the one I have now, in a much smaller, more portable size.

Currently I use a 64 meg ID card, and when shooting at 2 megapixel resolution I can get a little over a hundred pictures per card. The fact is a 5 megapixel camera is great, but there are few situations that I can forsee needing much more than 2 megapixels. Why? I'm at college for another year, and the subject matter is generally college kids doing stupid things. This is hardly a situation that needs enormous quality.

If I feel like it I can always borrow my fathers Nikon F4, or my brother's F3, if I feel the urge to shoot high quality on film. And I can always shoot with the Leica Digilux if I need high quality digital (there's no way I'll get my grubby little hands on that Rebel unless I'm on a shooting trip with my father, in which case he'll steal all my good shot ideas anyways :P).

So the question is, who makes a good, small, portable camera? I'm looking for something close to 200$ (if that's reasonable) since I want this to be something I can pop in my pocket and go out with at night, and not spend too much time worrying about losing it.

The only real string attached is I'd like to purchase it at Best Buy. Why? Not only do I hate an anger problem connected with that store, I also have a 150$ product replacement certificate! (works like store credit) I got this lovely slip of paper after I bought a broken dvd player from them. <_<

Any input appreciated,

Munk

[D-Dave]

While this may not be new information I would suggest waiting till after the photokina September 28th - October 3rd as this will most likely be the date of new models being presented and released.
Last time I got an awesome deal 2 weeks later on a discontinued / replaced model.

Good luck finding your personal big deal B)

[Munkay]

Sounds great!

I found a few slightly out of my price range, so hopefully they'll drop down in the next few months.

Cheers,

Munk

[Roland]

Anything from their CoolPix line.

Nikon Digital Cameras

Coolpix 2200
Coolpix 3200
Coolpix 4200

Any of these would be ideal choices. Exceptionall small, and just downright beautiful. And the picture quality is of course top notch. Available for ~$200, $300, and $400 respectively, with 2, 3, and 4 megapixels respectively.

My advice? Get at LEAST 3 Megapixels. It will GREATLY increase the lifetime use of your camera, as since you are in college, and you'll be graduating within a couple years, you'll be able to still use the camera for higher-end photography.

My g/f and I were looking at them. It was her idea to get me a Coolpix camera, because she thought I'd be more comfortable with the point-and-shoot. What she didn't realize is I HATE point and shoots, and so I told her to get one for herself if she wanted, but I'm sticking to the D-70 we have planned. ;) THAT beast costs a grand, but it's a BEATIFUL camera. It was love at first sight. I was drooling as I held / used it. That baby WILL be mine. :D

Tell me how it goes and what you choose!

[gekko]

I tried for about the last six weeks to convince myself the D-70 would be a good investment. Fact is, I'm more in the situation described a few posts higher up :) and since in Canada the D-70 retails for ~$1800 (although, to be fair, a buddy was going to get me a VERY nice deal), I simply couldn't justify that kind of purhcase for my own needs.

For someone in your situation, Munkay, I highly recomend anything from Canon. Not sure what their lower end digicams are going for in the states at the moment, but a smaller 3 megapixel one shouldn't break the bank. They're not as good for raw beginers as, say, a Fuji, but for someone with a little experience (such as yourself) they're simply great cameras. I personally own (and love) a Powershot S110, which I bought at the very end of ITS lifetime. And even though it's 'only' 2 megapixels, it easily prints up 8x10 shots with great clarity. The only times I've wished I had something with a little more ooomph was (1) landscape shots or anything requiring some zoom. The 2x optical zoom simply doesn't cut it, and compounds the second problem, namely (2) anytime I wanted to digitally blow up a specific part of a picture afterwards. This is where a 2 megapixel camera really shows its limitations. Granted, for myself that translates to about a dozen shots in the last 600 or so, which is why going from a 2 megapixel digicam to a 6 megapixel SLR behemoth would have been simply a colossal waste of money. Althought Roland is right, it IS a damn fine piece of equipment.

gekko

[CelticHound]

I have a Canon digital Elph - the 4MP version - and am happy with it. There are 3MP and 5MP versions, too.

I have temporarily put up a page with some images from it, at:

http://www.mikesmithstudios.com/canon_phot...otos/photos.htm

It also takes movies, but they are too big for me to upload.

Is there a particular kind of shot you'd like to see as a sample?

-- CH

[Roland]

$1800 bucks Canadian? Jesus Mother-of-God. It costs a grand here in the states, and that's expected to drop at LEAST a hundred bucks come Christmas time.

Myself, as I said, I hate point-and-shoots. They're TOO simplistic for my taste, even if I AM a horribly amateur photographer. I also, OTOH, do NOT subscribe to my g/f's father's way of thinking when it comes to amateur photography - if you TRULY want to learn, learn on a fully MANUAL camera. *shudders* What 18th century thinking. I think he fails to realize EVERY setting on a manual camera can be done MANUAL on an automatic camera - you just have to know the controls. ;) I know I LOVE manual focus. My g/f is less enthused about it - she finds auto-focus to be much simpler and easier, as she prefers more point-and-shoot. I find it to be an automatic pain in the rear, as I prefer usually to line up a great shot, even if it takes me 10+ minutes of posing.

God I love butterflies. :D

(I'll have to make a digital copy of some of my photos. Most are crap, but I got a few real gems in there - especially when I figured out the aperture adjustment! :D My g/f and I have totally different eyesight through the lens of the camera, which was why my early photos were all so blurry, no matter WHAT I shot - even with autofocus on, to boot.)

Edit:
And I still recommend Nikon over others. Canons are fine and dandy for your average amateur, but I suspect you'll be happier with a well-made Nikon.

Edit 2:
Unless $400 is out of your price range, this brand new little beauty would be a REAL treat for you. Up to 8x Optical Zoom, in a very compact little package, to boot. All the same great features of comparable lesser CoolPix cameras, but with more optical zoom than any of them - even the 5200! It boasts as much optical zoom as the 5800, at less than half the price! And half the size, don't forget. ;)

Just thought I'd throw that out as an idea. Any of the others I suggested before would also do you just as well; I just thought this was an ESPECIALLY good deal - I just found a camera I will be buying within the next 6 months for my g/f. :)

[Zippyy]

I've been using my old Nikon Coolpix 4500 for a couple of years. It gets a lot of laughs because of the strange design (swivel) but has proven to be very versatile (mainly because of the swivel) and able to take pretty decent quality pictures. Click my sig for results.

I'll second Roland's advice to go with a Nikon whole-heartedly. In my mind, Canons are the only brand that can compete, but in my experience Nikons are so much better at macro shots that me getting a Canon is totally out of the question. It's up to you though, and your style. My ancient Coolpix 4500 can focus perfectly on a macro shot from 2cm away. :D I even got one of those ring lights because at 2cm I was obviously blocking out all the light.

I've had my eye set on the D70 since it was announced. It gave the Digital Rebel a pretty firm stomping. The camera is about $1000 and the lens is $200-300 depending on where you get it.

Also, check out dpreview.com. Best digital camera site I've ever found. Super in-depth reviews.

Good luck with your purchase. :)

Edit: Fixed ambiguous sentence

[ShadowHM]

I have been reading this thread with interest. Thanks to all who commented.

I have been a 'point-and-shoot' photographer for a long time, because I mostly take photographs of my children, who (btw, Roland) do not deal well with 10 minute set-up times. :blink: Ten minutes later they are not even in the vicinity.)

But the medium is starting to get to me. I have whole rolls of photographs of which only two were worthy. The ability to know right away that a photo is a dud to be erased would be a boon.

Also, as the children grow, I am getting more interested in nature photography. Of course, that means keeping the camera by my side at all times, because the damnedest things happen when you are not expecting them. Last weekend, I saw a bat clip the water surface with a wing and go for an unexpected swim. It would have been wonderful to have been able to record the sight of a Little Brown Bat doing the Butterfly stroke.

Of course, I still have to balance the purchase price with other competing needs/desires - like children's extracurricular activities and my desire to own a HAM radio. But the input here will help. Thanks :)

[Roland]

...I highly recommend the 4800, because it's a great point-and-shoot with incredible zoom capability (35 - 300mm equivalent on a 35mm SLR). That will give you the fast-shooting and easy portability you'll be looking for, while still providing you with MORE than enough zoom to take nature shots (which are my speciality; and my passion). When it comes to nature, controlling zoom is a necessity. Without it, you'll be missing out on 90% of the shots you want to take. At least, if you're like me and like to take close-up shots, or shoot from far away (like with your bat).

Check out any of the CoolPix line of cameras. The smaller versions are, IMO, probably the best bang for your buck, if only because I'm not a huge fan of hybrid cameras (the 5xxx and 8xxx series of CoolPix - they combine SLR style and functions with point-and-shoot abilities; great for amateurs and professionals alike who don't want the weight and hassle of an SLR, but still want more than just point-and-shoot functionality, but horrid for me; a step back, if you will). Although the hybrids certainly have their place, and that's entirely up to what YOU are looking for, so don't let the fact that they don't suit MY personal needs deter you from getting one.

Your BEST bet is to go to a local photography store and feel each camera. Find the one that fits you best.

And, as always, I recommend a good Nikon. They have just such great quality. And always pair it up with Fuji film. Kodak focuses too much on reds, which makes nature shots look less-than-stellar. ;)

[ShadowHM]

When it comes to nature, controlling zoom is a necessity. Without it, you'll be missing out on 90% of the shots you want to take. At least, if you're like me and like to take close-up shots, or shoot from far away (like with your bat).

You nailed it right there.

I have all too many shots of tiny figures in a pretty setting. You know: the "See that brown dot in the centre of the pic? That was the bear that wandered past my cottage and got scared off." Or the "See that dot over the water? That's the osprey that just caught a fish in the middle of the bay."
Or, worse yet: "See that dark dot against the white beach? That's the wild boar that came down to the water to drink." *

Thanks Roland :)

*Yes, there really is a place in Ontario with "wild" wild boar. Hay Island in Colpoys Bay (part of Georgian Bay) has been stocked with wild boar. Landing your boat on the island is not recommended. :P

[Munkay]

I also, OTOH, do NOT subscribe to my g/f's father's way of thinking when it comes to amateur photography - if you TRULY want to learn, learn on a fully MANUAL camera. *shudders* What 18th century thinking.

:o

There's little that can compete with the feeling of a true manual camera. I'm in love with my fathers Nikon F4, but can't afford to shoot endless roles. Its sort of the difference between driving a manual BMW and an automatic BMW. Most new BMW's have 'manual' switches which allows you to shift 'up' and 'down.'

Granted you can technically do everything you could do in a manual (such as downshifting, aka needlessly burning your engine), its still not the same 'feel.'

To keep with the car analogies, digital is kind of like power steering, compared to old rack and pinion steering. My brother has a 1984 Three series BMW, with the old rack and pinion steering. Its a joy to drive on windy roads, and even modern BMW's don't really compare. There's something to be said about manual cameras, since they are much like Rack and Pinion cars, the knobs are directly connected to a mechanical part. There is no interpretation like in a digital camera.

My point? There is definately a reason for manual camera's still being around, even if it is purely for the feel.

Plus I'm one of those losers who thinks developing film in a dark room is fun :).

I guess I'm just an old man for my age :P

-- To Roland:
Much appreciated for the links, the only problem is now I'm pining after the camera's out of my price range :)

-- To Zippyy
Thanks for the link to dpreview.com, I'm already plunged head first into the reviews. I'm picking up the Digital Camera Jargon as I go.

--To ShadowHM
You're making me nostalgic for summer days spent in Maine. I can definately relate to many pictures of 'dots.' I have at least a role full of 'that dot's a bald eagle' and 'that one is an osprey diving.' :)

-- What about this one?
Canon Elph
As far as the personal reviews go it seems pretty solid, tiny, and would work for what I'm asking for. If I ebay a few items I own, I should be able to raise my price range to 300, which seems a lot more reasonable the more I look. By 300, I mean Camera+Bigger Card. Any thoughts on the Elphs?

I should note I'm more of an extremes person. I'd much rather have a simple point and shoot camera with good picture quality, and options light. And (if ever wanted) invest in a good SLR.

Cheers,

Munk

Edit: Added more replies, didn't want to double post for each person.

[LochnarITB]

Click my sig for results.

Some very nice stuff there. It is obvious that you revel in close-up detail, but my favorite is Beach (followed closely by Mischevious Monkey :D ). Someday (I say that WAY too much), I hope to be able to produce the qulaity that you show there.

[Munkay]

Hail Zippyy,

I'm also a big fan of your photography. Mind if I ask which camera was used for those?

Also, picture #80 and #81 are different, but I beleive the thumbnail for them is the same.

Cheers,

Munk

[DeeBye]

You really can't wrong with either a Canon or a Nikon. They both make great digicams. I'll also toss out Sony as an excellent brand. These three manufacturers probably make the best consumer model digicams. It all comes down to personal preference and brand loyalty (and of course PRICE!) when choosing amongst them.

If you are looking for something that won't be obsolete in the next couple of years, I really suggest that you get a 5+ megapixel camera. If you're just using it for small prints (up to 8x10) or web images, a 2-3 megapixel camera is just fine. This is assuming, of course, that you have a good quality 2-3 megapixel camera. I've seen some 2 megapixel Canons and Sonys that outperform cheapo 5 megapixel piles of junk in terms of picture quality and colour.

I guess this brings me to my major beef with most uninformed digicam shoppers -- megapixels aren't everything. A $200 noname 5 megapixel camera is going to suck compared to a $200 Canon 3 megapixel camera. Quality costs more, and it's worth every penny. Just be informed about what you're sinking your money into beforehand.

[CelticHound]

-- What about this one?
Canon Elph
As far as the personal reviews go it seems pretty solid, tiny, and would work for what I'm asking for.&nbsp; If I ebay a few items I own, I should be able to raise my price range to 300, which seems a lot more reasonable the more I look.&nbsp; By 300, I mean Camera+Bigger Card.&nbsp; Any thoughts on the Elphs?

I have the 4MP version of that camera and am happy with it. See the link in my previous post for some sample photos. I have at least one shot I took on the S230 - that's the model the 110 replaced, I think - I liked it enough to buy my 400. If you want, I can dig it out and post it, too.

But then I'm not a serious photographer. I believe in the philosophy that you take more pictures with the camera you have in your pocket than the one that you left at home because it was too heavy to cart around.

-- CH

[Zippyy]

Lochnar: Interesting story about that monkey, actually... I took that picture while I was out in the Nicaraguan equivalent of the boonies. There was a very nice man who had two monkies, a cat, and a dog. As I am taking a picture of the other monkey on the roof (Contemplating Life), the Mischevious Monkey swings towards me on his rope and grabs my hair. Duly surprised, I whirl around and grab his arm. He doesn't like this, and grabs onto my shirt with his feet. Now I am in a real mess. I carefully set down my camera and try to figure out to unlatch the monkey from my head. I try pulling, no luck. I try pushing, no luck. The monkey's owner is laughing at me now. As you have have surmised, the monkey has another arm, which he now uses to grab my hair also. I have had quite enough of being a monkeyhead, so I push him away as hard as I can. This seems to work, but as the monkey is flying backwards, he grabs my arm and bites my pinky finger. Ouch! Anyone else been bitten by a monkey?

You have also hit my head on the nail. I do like macro shots, probably more than is healthy. When I was a tot I used to read a kids magazine called Highlights. In some issues it would have several macro pictures and you were supposed to guess what they were. In a way, I think I am trying to reproduce that but with a more artistic and emotional slant. You wouldn't believe some of the guesses I have gotten for some of my shots (it seems no one EVER reads the captions). One unnamed Lurker guessed that Ice Crystal was an, erm, appendage of an Ice Elemental. <_<

---------------------------

Munkay: I certainly hope you were not involved with coordinating the monkey attack. You and your kind...

Anyway, thank you very much for the compliment. I used a Nikon Coolpix 4500 for all the pictures on my website. Hopefully within a few months I will be able to upgrade to a Nikon D70 (having an SLR with easy manual focus will be like dying and going to heaven after the 4500).

Yes, the thumbnails are the same. Thanks for pointing that out! I will fix that pronto. Currently I am writing a content management system in PHP to handle all that stuff. No more Zip errors :)

Edit: Spelling, grammar, and I am dumb

[CelticHound]

And if you *do* decide on an Elph, it seems that Dell is a decent place to order one. They periodically have sales and coupons. For example, there's a deal that expires today:

Canon S410 4MP Digital Camera for $349 - 10% - $30 = $284 Search A0293115

Here's a site that tracks deals like this.

http://www.spoofee.com/

BTW, check the review for the cycle time(? anyway the spell timer between shots) on the camera. A long casting delay drives me crazy. My S400 was an improvement on previous models in that regard.

-- CH

[LochnarITB]

he grabs my arm and bites my pinky finger.&nbsp; Ouch!&nbsp; Anyone else been bitten by a monkey?

LOL right up to that point. Too bad there wasn't someone else filming that going on. Can't you get something like rabies or monkeypox from a bite like that? Ouch!

When I was a tot I used to read a kids magazine called Highlights.&nbsp; In some issues it would have several macro pictures and you were supposed to guess what they were.

I remember and enjoyed both the magazine and the picture puzzles you mentioned. I think it is Conan O'Brien that uses a version of that on his late night show. They start out zoomed in and pull out a couple times to the, hopefully, comedic payoff.

[SoulEdge]

I dabble in photography, probably no longer an amateur but definately not a pro. Just have some random things that I like to share.

- Silver halide film is about 14 megapixel resolution.
- Prints of 300 dpi (dots per inch) resolution is a standard used by photography magazines (in UK).
- perhaps it's better to ask yourself what size of prints you want to get from your digital camera. For 6x4in or 5x7in prints at 300 dpi, 3 megapixel or 4 megapixel digital camera is sufficient.
- zoom range: digital zoom is rubbish. Optical zoom is the real deal, zoom range of (35mm equivalent) 35-200mm probably is good all round. Problem with most digital cameras is the wide angle end of the zoom range (the lower number), if you are into landscape, you probably want more wide angle end on your zoom lens.
- close focus or macro, how close the camera can focus: Usually not a problem for digital cameras (10cm or less), but if you are into macro, close up and/or still life, then it's good to get a camera with good close focus (smaller number better).
- file formats: camera that provide lossless format is always a good thing, like tiff or raw.
- start-up time and write time: shorter the better, else you may just miss that very special moment because the camera takes, say, 10 seconds to start up.
- point-and-shoot, SLR-style, SLR: how much control do you want? Personally, lens changing is a must. As for exposure control: manual, aperture priority and shuttle priority are probably what I use 99% of the time. And for focusing, definately the ability to focus manually when I want to.
- ISO range, digital sensor sensitivity. Usually is the lower end that digital cameras are lacking, ISO 25, 50, and even 100. This dictates the grain size in film and I believe it dictates the "digital noise" in digital camera. Low ISO is good for fine grain (pixel?) prints, capable of enlarging to big prints, but sometimes grainy photograph is nice too.
- maximum aperture: probably more important when you have control over the aperture size (the f/ number ), the lower the number, the bigger the aperture, and that's better in the sense that you have a "faster" lens. Light can reach the sensor/film faster, needing shorter shuttle speed, so less chance of blur caused by shaky hands.
- shuttle speed range: again, probably matters when you have control over which shuttle speed to use. Digital cameras seem to have problem holding the shuttle open for a long time. There are situations when long shuttle speed, say 10 seconds or more, are needed to capture the photo. Conventional SLRs have shuttle speed of 30 seconds, and with the "bulb" (B ) function for longer exposure.
- power: digital cameras need a lot juice, get one using rechargable battery, Lithium-Ion perhaps.
- existing camera system: if you are a Nikon SLR user, make sense to continue using Nikon for all the accessaries you already possessed, and since I am a Canon user, I will continue to use Canon, I like the superb USM lens, thank you very much! :P

I am still using a film SLR, Canon EOS 5 to be precise (USA may call it differently, like they do so with so many other models), and shooting mostly on slides nowadays. Will move on to digital SLR in the future, so I am constantly keeping myself up to date with new digital SLR models. Canon EOS 20D looks neat! B)


EDIT:
For portable point-and-shoot digital cameras, like those credit card size ones, check out Casio and Konica-Minolta:

Konica-Minolta Dimage X series - non-protruding zoon lens!
Casio EXILIM series