MF Bug?

[shavenlunatic]

I know that pre 1.10 there was a MF thing where it was best to have 250% MF or something?? (i dont really know as i only started playing circa 1.10) but is there still MF strangeness?

Ill give my little story and await opinions, please keep in mind that I know anyone can have dry patches of MF when hunting.

I recently started on ladder from scratch, so i had no mules and no real item help from friends. Managed to get me a tarn helm, mig's orb and various other cheap MF stuff to get it up to about 350%, after VERY few mf runs (and I mean about 20-40 runs total) I found a Shakko, an Occulus, Skullders, loads of IK, Titans, Bartucs.. and loads of other useful Uniques (cant remember off hand) but MF was going GOOOOOOD to say the least...

Then i started MF-ing with my new found 480% MF and for about a month i literally found NOTHING of use so as I got bored of repeatedly running meph and it taking a while to kill him i stopped switching to nagel rings and kept my 10% FCR rings on and boots with resists on etc. Taking my MF down to around 387%, in doing this, within around 20 MF runs i found another Occulus, another Shakko, a SOJ, Gheeds Charm and some Elite set items (amongst other very nice uniques which again I cant remember)

So basically, is this a bug or just amazing coincidence? hmmm?

[adeyke]

All else being equal, more MF will give you more magic/rare/set/unique items. So for a fixed number of runs, more MF will always help. The only time when MF will have a negative impact on the number of uniques you find is if you have to sacrifice killing speed to get it.

[Obi2Kenobi]

http://www.lurkerlounge.com/diablo2/discov...es/032001.shtml

Vicars like tea.

[shavenlunatic]

All else being equal, more MF will give you more magic/rare/set/unique items.  So for a fixed number of runs, more MF will always help.  The only time when MF will have a negative impact on the number of uniques you find is if you have to sacrifice killing speed to get it.

Yeah, I know its documented as such, but as I said, I've had so much better luck with less than 400%MF than 500%+MF, not taking into account the kill speed, just purely for run:find ratio it has been better with the lower MF.

Strangeness, I guess it's just been a weird coincidence. I'll do some experiments,
20 meph runs with high MF and 20 without and total up the "useful" items I find, I'll run this repeatedly over a few weeks and see if the trend continues... I'll probably end up with nothing of interest but I'm just curious.

I guess I just wanted to know if anyone else had experienced this phenomenon

[Fragbait]

Hi shavenlunatic,

If you really do some tests, make them worth reading.
That is: do 1000 runs with 500% mf, and 1000 with 250% (and 1000 without any).
Record ALL data, all items you find, the normals, magicals, rares and uniques alike. If an item is useful or not lies in the eye of the beholder, and often statistics are false only because just the uber items have been counted. Also, the might-have-been-a-unique items must be mentioned. (I think they are rares with high durability or so).

I hope you will be the first to stick to your statement and really conduct some serious testing, for there have been so many that said so and never did.
Good luck, then ! (well - actually not. Just average findings :D )

If you want to read what others think, indeed read the thread Obi linked to.


Greetings, Fragbait

[adeyke]

Record ALL data, all items you find, the normals, magicals, rares and uniques alike.

Also, you'd need to see which magic and rare items have extra durability, to find the failed sets and uniques.

[Raziel]

Just to muddy the waters for the heck of it..

My IK barb finds way more stuff than my MF sorcs. And he finds it in wierd places (eg. from random monsters in the middle of nowhere). I did a few areas last night while standing around in pubby trade games and was suprised at the nice items I got. M'avinas bow, Highlords, that sort of thing.

Maybe he rolled a really good "luck" stat or something :lol: . He's always my best MF'er, and yet, he has barely any MF. What the heck.

Of note, my M'avinas Zon has a good reputation for MF finds as well. Hey, there's a bit of a trend there: both are getting MF bonuses granted (wholly or in part) by the completion of a set. I don't suppose that is treated any differently to "ordinary MF"?

I know, I know, silly question. If it were true all the tal sorcs would be having a field day.

[Fragbait]

Hi adeyke,

Yeah, that's what I meant when I wrote:
"Also, the might-have-been-a-unique items must be mentioned. (I think they are rares with high durability or so)."
;)

Thanks anyway. So magical items can be failed uniques (sets), too. Ah.


Greetings, Fragbait

[adeyke]

Failed uniques are triple durability rares.
Failed set items are double durability magic items.

[shavenlunatic]

If you really do some tests, make them worth reading.
That is: do 1000 runs with 500% mf, and 1000 with 250% (and 1000 without any).

When I do provide the statistics, please remember that I am relatively a D2 newb and all the "in-depth" stats and item details are completely over my head.

I will do my best, if my results aren't up to standard I can live with that as I know I'm not the most qualified of people to carry out these tests :D

Wish me luck..lol

LOL, ive never done 1000 MF runs in my life! :)

I will do as many as I can to provide some form of useful statistics I promise, I cant guarantee that I will do as many as you stated though as I work 14 hour days and have a pregnant girlfriend and whatnot.

[Guest]

I will do as many as I can to provide some form of useful statistics I promise, I cant guarantee that I will do as many as you stated though as I work 14 hour days and have a pregnant girlfriend and whatnot.

I made this rash promise a few weeks ago, and found myself unable to keep my word. Stuff happens. :blink:


I think that this topic (not the thread/forum sense of it, but the topic in general) has evolved into older members of the forum scolding people who bring up the posibility of stuff in mf. I personally think that modder types are scared of the possibility that there could be some mf dealie that they dont' know about because it's stored server side, so they respond harshly/sarcastically. ;)

Edit: Not calling YOU a newer member, it's just that since I joined here, two other people (newer than me) have hinted at this.

[Munkay]

I think that this topic (not the thread/forum sense of it, but the topic in general) has evolved into older members of the forum scolding people who bring up the posibility of stuff in mf. I personally think that modder types are scared of the possibility that there could be some mf dealie that they dont' know about because it's stored server side, so they respond harshly/sarcastically.

Perhaps you are right that the modders are just to scared to admit they could be wrong. But I'd still wager that it's more of an issue with hersay that gets the old dogs to bark (not sure if I'm included in the old dogs category, but I definately bark).

"Server side patches" are like the reasoning people who use good luck charms use to justify losses. Anytime you are dealing with % like magic find, its sticky business. And server side patches are so ever illusive, that unless there is some really hard, and well documented, evidence (such as insane meph runs) its impossible to figure out what they are. So until there is hard evidence, 'server side patch' criers are the same as boston redsox fans thinking Johnny Damon's facial hair has anything to do with the sox winning or losing, or as bad as this post :P

Then again, looking at the Red Sox's history, I'd try anything for a bit of luck ;).

-Munk

[Raven Vale]

Well all I can say is I wished I had known about all this durability hoohaa before I made my 2000 runs , I was never going to mention it because of the Grand scale which I messed up , but , I will say this . Before we got the new runewords I was making runs for myself , 1000 in all , Pindle runs Hell , 437 MF . I was getting a set or unique item on average 1 in 4 runs , I completed another 1000 runs a couple of weeks ago , of course , well after the new runewords , I now get a set or unique item 1 in every 25 runs , sometimes the odd 40 - 50 runs or more without a set or unique , also have noticed a big difference in that I am getting more blue/white drops or even just white . Even without durability issues , surely even that says something . Same sorc , same runs , same MF . I am not saying that something happened when they introduced the new runewords , like changing the way MF works "again" , but it seems strange (conspiracy theorists get to work ) also it was just coincidence that the runewords came out not long after I had finished the first runs . Anyway like I say , that it is just bare statistics , maybe I will do another 2000 runs , but this time note the durability .

Take care

[Fragbait]

Hi Raven Vale,

You really did that many runs? Congrats on that. I think not only I would be VERY interested in your tables. Unfortunately you did not mention if the items had uncommon durability, but I guess that's neglectable at first. Most important is that we get our hands at some real hard data now. Please post your detailed results here.
Maybe when you do the next 2000 runs, why don't you do 1000 with all your +437% mf, and 1000 with the half, say +218% mf. That would be great.

Greetings, Fragbait

[Guest]

Server side patches" are like the reasoning people who use good luck charms use to justify losses.

I thought that certain runewords, and the ability to upgrade things to elite are stored serverside only. Isn't this true? If it isn't, than why don't we know all of the runewords already, and why can't we upgrade our stuff to the best of the best in sp?

[Munkay]

I thought that certain runewords, and the ability to upgrade things to elite are stored serverside only. Isn't this true? If it isn't, than why don't we know all of the runewords already, and why can't we upgrade our stuff to the best of the best in sp?

Unreal, for a good person, you often miss the subtleties of conversation. :)

There are server side patches that exist. But they are nearly impossible to know if something as complex as magic find has changed via server side patch, without blizzard telling us. That's why people are calling for insane amounts of mephisto runs, to figure this out.

Until then, server side patches (about things like magic find) are hersay. They are a great way to pass off 'bad luck' as something predetermined.

So until they are found, most people shy away from conversations about them. And especially arguements. It's not that people at the lounge are adamantly against the idea that a patch could exist. But they need proof before they beleive it. Or else we'd all be speaking on conjectures with no base.

And there's nothing worse than a conversation that has no real foundation :).

-Munk

[adeyke]

I thought that certain runewords, and the ability to upgrade things to elite are stored serverside only. Isn't this true? If it isn't, than why don't we know all of the runewords already, and why can't we upgrade our stuff to the best of the best in sp?

There are four known realms-only runewords. There are no known realms-only recipes. You can upgrade items to elite in SP.

So yes, server-side patches do happen. However, you still need some evidence to justify a claim about them. In the case of the realms-only runewords, the recipe and the stats were discovered and there was screenshot evidence. Skeptics could verify the claim themselves. So the existence of those runewords was proven. The existence of any sort of realms-only MF anomaly hasn't been proven.

If just saying "maybe there was a server-side patch" was accepted as solid evidence, we might as well just delete the entire workshop and maggot lair, as well as most D2 web sites, since nothing could actually be known about the game.

For example, suppose I made the claim that act 1 normal quill rats could drop the Windforce, but had only a 1/1,000,000 chance of doing so. Obviously, our knowledge of drop mechanics shows without a doubt that this is an impossibility. WF is too high-level, and they can't drop hydra bows to start. However, there could be a server-side patch that makes it so they can drop one. It's not possible to completely prove that there wasn't such a patch. You could only do it with statistics. If you killed about 3,000,000 quill rats and still didn't get a WF, you could state with 95% certainty that they can't drop one. However, it's not reasonable to actually kill the 3,000,000 quill rats, and there'd still be the chance that you were simply unlucky during the 3,000,000 runs. And even if you could prove that quill rats can't drop a Windforce, there'd still be the possibility that they made another server-side patch to make it impossible again.

In other words, if you allow the server-side patch argument without any burden of proof, anyone could make whatever ridiculous claims they want without being held accountable for them. It just wouldn't work.

[Guest]

I've heard all this before, I'm just verifying (sic?) that it is POSSIBLE.

You can upgrade stuff in SP? Awesome.

Also, I don't know too much about this stuff, but is it POSSIBLE that they could have put an mf dealie in the source engine? Modders can't view the source code, can they?

[Baajikiil]

Please post your detailed results here.

Actually I'd be interested as well, 1000 is quite alot of documented runs.

One question though: Since you mentioned white items, I wonder if you are killing pindle's minions as well as pindle himself(pindle will only drop magic weapons/armor).

It will make calculations to figure pindle's drop rates more complex if minion's drops are counted into the figures.

Be sure to isolate pindle's drops from his minions' if you run him.

(well, you could have been refering to potions/gold/other non-magic stuff I suppose)

[Munkay]

Also, I don't know too much about this stuff, but is it POSSIBLE that they could have put an mf dealie in the source engine? Modders can't view the source code, can they?

Let's think about this: If a server side patch about magic find was impossible, every post about it would be quickly filled with 'not possible' responses. Modders can't view a server side patch that can only be found on bnet servers, or else this question would already be answered. ;)

God loves logic!

So yes, you are definately correct Unreal, it is possible. :)

-Munk