Confirmed: Stacking CoT's 2nd and 3rd Charges

[bigeyedbug]

Clicky for my post at the AB.

I have a couple of questions too:

Does NextDelay immunize targets from ALL effects--not just damage--of the relevant attacks on the list. Or, to put it another way, will a NextDelay missle pass through an immunized subject with its full payload of effects intact?

When does the NextDelay timer (effectively) start? From the first, last, or some other frame a relevant attack is in contact with the target?

[Ruvanal]

Does NextDelay immunize targets from ALL effects--not just damage--of the relevant attacks on the list.

It would be all effects as the missile is being treated as a non-collision event to prevent multiple stacking of effects. You need to look more closely at the number and shape of some of the missiles that are set up for the NextDelay and why they are set up that way. Nova at ~64 missiles per cast would devastate anything close to the caster due to the number of overlapping missiles at close range (missiles are arcs that have full circular spread like the spread of a tight Multishot spread). Another case is the 'nova like' effect from Battle Command; if every missile could effect the target then what would the amount of plus skills that would end up being applied to the characters (in particular the barb that is touched by every missile that he creates when he does the shout).

When does the NextDelay timer (effectively) start? From the first, last, or some other frame a relevant attack is in contact with the target?

It should be from the first frame of the first contact with such a missile. See above for why anything else could result in some ugly balance problems.

[bigeyedbug]

That makes sense. I should rephrase the second question though, and spell out what I meant by "(effectively)": Does the NextDelay timer reset itself every frame the relevant missle is in contact with the target? Or is subsequent NextDelay itself another part of the payload which is ignored because of the missle's treatment as a "non-collision event"?

[Ruvanal]

Part of the payload. That is why most of the nova like effects only need a delay of 4 frames to be sure that under normal circumstances that the missiles have passed the character and do not trigger again. If the delay was shorter than 4 frames and a character moving in the same direction as a missile could end up getting 2 or more successful interactions.

[bigeyedbug]

Ah. This does imply that under the right circumstances some other ND effects can stack. I talk about knockback in the AB post, but another possibility I just mentioned in passing is the XXL targets. I wonder if their size--possibly in conjunction with their direction and speed like you mention--sometimes earn them the distincion of being hit multiple times by the same missle.

In any case, thank you for the replies.

[bigeyedbug]

Ah.  This does imply that under the right circumstances some other ND effects can stack.  I talk about knockback in the AB post, but another possibility I just mentioned in passing is the XXL targets.  I wonder if their size--possibly in conjunction with their direction and speed like you mention--sometimes earn them the distincion of being hit multiple times by the same missle.

Apparently not, or at least not most of the time. adeyke has run a mod test with the act bosses and failed to get both nova and charged bolt hits without KB. And if that doesn't work, it's not likely that more than one CB can hit--again, with the possible exception of unusual confluences of spread and target speed and direction.

[whyBish]

Another case is the 'nova like' effect from Battle Command; if every missile could effect the target then what would the amount of plus skills that would end up being applied to the characters (in particular the barb that is touched by every missile that he creates when he does the shout).

I would hope that battle command is a state (like curses) so that it would not need a next delay?

[Caaroid]

I would hope that battle command is a state (like curses) so that it would not need a next delay?

I would think that the "nova" that sets the state has the nextDelay. If the state is an int, not a bool, wthout a nextdelay it could get a high value.

[whyBish]

Why on earth would it be an int? Two different barbs battle commanding you more than a next delay apart do not give a stacking effect, just as two necros cursing you or two paladins giving you an aura (apart from HS/HF/HF which are damage dealing, and not states). Next delay wouldn't even achieve a reduction in the amount processing time, since if it is just a state you can essentially OR it with 1 for 60 times (for roughly 60 cycles of processing) whereas next delay would require a LOAD of some time counter, a comparison with the next delay value (or zero if the counter is set to next delay to start with) and then an ADDition to the int, and a STORE. So it would take approx twice as long (both have load and store), but even this is really irrelevant in terms of processing requirements.

[IKKE]

I dont get it...whats the fuzz about it ?
with CoT ? Does it do more damage when u knockback it ? What's the point

Sorry for being stupid :P......

[bigeyedbug]

Well, there is no point, really. ^_^


Actually there is a point (and several implications) but it's only clear if you were familiar with NextDelay and its supposed effect on CoT damage. It was thought that it prevented targets affected by the second nova charge from being affected by the third charged bolt charge. As a result of the testing, we can infer that:

There is a zone beginning approximately in the middle of the nova area and extending outwards where the nova outpaces the charged bolts by more than the four frames of NextDelay. Targets in this zone are eligible to be damaged by both the nova and charged bolts.

Like I say in the link, this is more than two-and-a-half times the damage potential that was previously thought. That's without doing anything special to take advantage of it.

If you really want to milk this for all its worth, kb can be used to forcably move targets back into the overlap zone. Dragon Tail is ideal for this because it bumps back multiple targets, maximizing your damage output with every release. And any kind of kb will result in the release target getting affected by all three charges, which is pretty respectable.

If you want to know what those other two guys are arguing about, you'll have to ask them.