When do you max prereqs?

[Guest]

When should somebody max a prerequisite? For example, if you are making a Bone Spear/Spirit Necro, do you put points into teeth steadily untill you hit lvl 18, or do you save your skill points so you always have a store of points to max out spear/spirit simultaneously?

[Obi2Kenobi]

It depends, really. If you place points into Teeth, it really helps you out for those first 17 level ups. However, a balance will get you the most damage after a certain level. So it is higher at low levels to max teeth earlier, then becomes higher to put points into both the skill and the synergy after a certain point (ie: if maxing Spirit, no need to save more than one point per level, as it is just going to waste). But then, after they are all maxed, it doesn't matter. :P

[Chesspiece_face]

It depends. For your example of the Bone Necro I would recommend not putting points into teeth until you are finishing your character. Reasoning being that Teeth would really only help you get through those first 17 lvls faster. After that the only point it has is to add to your other skills. Those first 17 lvls are easy enough as it is so the added bonus of a leveled up teeth really doesn't mean that much. It would be much more benificial for you to have extra skills saved up so you can max both Bone Spirit and Bone Spear as soon as possible. After those skills are maxed you can go back to teeth for the added bonus to your main attack spells.

Also if you are going to spend points early as a PnB necro those points will be much more useful going into Bone Armor. Bone armor will help you at all levels and later when all your skills are going into maxing the BS's and things start to get harder you will be happy that you have the extra defense when your main attacks aren't fully up to speed.

I would recommend putting points into Teeth last. There are much better skills to spend your points into that will synergize with a PnB skillset much better. Start with some points into Bone Armor till about lvl 6 then save points till you get Bone Spear. Sink all your points from there into Bone Spear till you get Bone Spirit. From there you should be able to put 1 into both of those skills till they are maxed. Extra points go into Bone Armor. After those are maxed start on Bone Wall. That will synergize with your attacks and with your Bone Armor. After that you should have Marrow Walks for the lvl 33 bone prison etc. When you are done with all those skills, And you are sure you have all the curses you need, then put points into Teeth.

[ShadowHM]

Also if you are going to spend points early as a PnB necro those points will be much more useful going into Bone Armor.

I disagree.

Points spent in Bone Wall always will give more benefit to Bone Armour than points in Bone Armour itself. If Bone Wall is part of your play style anyway, then you should be placing points there instead of Bone Armour for sure.

After that you should have Marrow Walks for the lvl 33 bone prison etc.

PLEASE do not advocate bug abuse here. If you are going to use Bone Prison, put points in Bone Prison.

[Chesspiece_face]

PLEASE do not advocate bug abuse here. If you are going to use Bone Prison, put points in Bone Prison.

Please don't assume that your personal opinions can be translated to others moral choices. Marrow Walks is a perfectly acceptable character choice. just because you feel it is wrong doesn't mean that everyone should delete their characters and start over. If people want to plan their characters around that then fine let them do it. And as for it being a bug i would like you to point me to the post that blizzard made stating that it was an accident. (i'm not saying they didn't say that, but i would like to read it.)

Edit: Also, maybe you missed the part of my post that said to max bone walls as well.

[adeyke]

It is a bug. Purposefully using it for the synergy is bug exploitation. We don't need Blizzard to tell us that.

It's also a logical fallacy to state that, since we don't have official word from Blizzard saying that it's a bug, it must not be one. I could just as easily ask you for official word from Blizzard that it is intentional.

If you accept that it's bug exploitation but decide that bug exploitation is acceptable, that's your choice. However, if you say that it's not a bug, you're wrong.

[Griselda]

Hi,

Bug abuse has been frowned upon at the Lounge for as long as there's been a lounge- when it was Bolty's Diablo Strategy Central, you'd better believe that intentionally exploiting the mana shield bug was frowned upon. Bug exploitation contains a lot of grey area- people draw the line in different places (lightning hose bug, anyone?). But, make no mistake, your point of view is in the minority here, where we "promote fair gameplay and a healthy game environment for learning how to play games the way they are meant to be played". Whether you agree with this point of view or not, we are not going to change on this issue.

I don't plan to hold my breath waiting for Blizz to officially admit to every bug that still exists in one of their games, either. Even though they made the game, they don't have the final word on what constitutes cheesiness or bug exploitation. It's not in their best interest even to admit to bugs, especially when they do not plan to release additional patches.

-Griselda

[Chesspiece_face]

If you accept that it's bug exploitation but decide that bug exploitation is acceptable, that's your choice.  However, if you say that it's not a bug, you're wrong.

Wait a sec. you are gonna stand there and tell me that i'm wrong and at the same time say that there is no way you can prove it?!

I'm not saying it's a bug, i'm also not saying that it is not a bug. I'm saying that i don't care either way. And i don't see what the big fuss is about it. I understand you position that you feel it is a cheap way to gain power. But at the same time it isn't completely free. the use of Marrow Walk is a personal and tactical decision. For that added umph to your attack skills you are losing A LOT in your defensive capabilities. I point you to the other post a little ways down the forum regarding "Boners". Pretty much everyone agrees that using Bone Prison is essential to their playstyle. Well by using Marrow Walk you are effectively removing Bone Prison from your arsonel. It's a choice of Decent offense/High defense or High offense/decent (arguably low) defense.

Not only that but if wearing Marrow Walks can make an individual have that much more fun playing the game more power to them. The only exception to this would be if you are dueling etc. And Marrow Walks are pretty much banned in all respectable duels anyway. If you are using them to gain power over other players in that way then you have much more pressing moral problems than the actual use of the boots in the first place.

In the history of imbalances and bugs in D2 I really don't see Marrow Walks (or Carrion Wind) even registering on the scale. They give players more choice in character customization and in the case of the Marrow Walks that choice comes with consequences. Neither character plans can be rationally described as unbalanced. They are just different.

[Chesspiece_face]

where we "promote fair gameplay and a healthy game environment for learning how to play games the way they are meant to be played". Whether you agree with this point of view or not, we are not going to change on this issue.

I'm not asking you to change your opinion on any issues. I just argue that playing "games the way they are meant to be played" is arbitrary and a completely prejudicial statement. every single player can define the way a game is meant to be played, and many of those will end up differently. Not only that, but it is my opinion that the use of marrow walks doesn't exclude "a healthy game environment". When it comes right down to it, whether a player uses Marrow Walks for the added power to their attacks effects nobody other than that player Except when the player using them is a complete jerk. And in those cases the reason that it isn't a healthy gaming environment isn't because they used Marrow Walks but because they are a jerk.

[adeyke]

Wait a sec. you are gonna stand there and tell me that i'm wrong and at the same time say that there is no way you can prove it?!

(For the following, I'm ignoring those "synergies" that are affected by +skills, as the bone skills definitely aren't in the list and as they thus aren't terribly relevant).

1. Blizzard did state that items wouldn't increase synergies. The charges synergy bug is the only exception to this.

2. Since only base points count for synergies, you're limited to a maximum 20 synergy points per synergizing skill. The charges synergy bug is the only exception to this.

3. Putting points in bone prison eliminates the effect. You'd thus be heavily penalized for actually investing in the synergy. This behaviour doesn't make any sense if it was an intentional feature.

4. It's overpowered. The boot slot is perhaps the least valuable of all for necros. With this, however, you get 33 synergy points for just that slot. That translates to at least a 40% increase in total damage for the bone attack skills and +495 bone armour absorption (as well as a bonus to bone wall).

Those four things are sufficient evidence for me. If it looks like a bug and smells like a bug, it's a bug, even if Blizzard hasn't acknowledged it as such.

[Samka]

But when should bugs be avoided? IMO, lurkers should celebrate the discovery of those "bugs" which make variants ordinarily underpowered, viable.

[Bob the Beholder]

But the point of a "variant" is to be underpowered. Last I knew of, that's why variants were created, and why the entire concept lasted.

[ShadowHM]

Please don't assume that your personal opinions can be translated to others moral choices.  Marrow Walks is a perfectly acceptable character choice.  just because you feel it is wrong doesn't mean that everyone should delete their characters and start over.  If people want to plan their characters around that then fine let them do it.

I didn't tell you not to make your own character skill choices. You have the right to make any choices you want. Heck, you can even use Map Hack, drop hack, any old hack you want, as long as you make no mention of it in this forum.

I told you not to advocate here that others exploit a bug. This forum, as Griselda has already pointed out, has a long history of frowning on deliberate bug exploitation.

And to Bob the Beholder:

But the point of a "variant" is to be underpowered. Last I knew of, that's why variants were created, and why the entire concept lasted.

Thank you ! It is indeed the entire point of making a variant and why they are so much fun to play. :) Prevailing despite weakness is the whole point.

[Samka]

But the point of a "variant" is to be underpowered. Last I knew of, that's why variants were created, and why the entire concept lasted.

The point of a variant is to do something different to the norm (hence the name), and have fun in trying to make it work. If bone spells were much less effective, then should the use of Marrowwalks still be frowned upon? I wouldn't think so.

[Guest]

What's a marrowalk? What's a charged bug? Quit flaming!

[Bob the Beholder]

The point of a variant is to do something different to the norm (hence the name), and have fun in trying to make it work. If bone spells were much less effective, then should the use of Marrowwalks still be frowned upon? I wouldn't think so.

The point is that bone skills are not less effective. And I'm quite sure that, here at least, it would still be frowned upon, and anyone who advocated its use would be jumped upon just as quick as anyone who has advocated it now.

'Round these parts, from my experience, it really doesn't matter what kind of a benefit a bug gives you; it's still a bug. And, generally, a "less effective" skill or set of skills is more an invitation to see what you can do with it than an invitation to decide it needs a boost from an error in the game's code.

[Samka]

The point is that bone skills are not less effective.

That's not the point. Adeyke seemed to be campaigning against all bugs, so I just wanted to say that maybe there are some bugs that aren't really so bad.

For instance, the barbarian's 'war cry' skill occassionally stuns champions and uniques. That may well be a bug, but you wouldn't want to go round calling singer barbs abusive, for instance - despite the fact that most of them will use the bug to survive.

Marrowwalks are a bit much, I agree, but on the other hand if I can stick a sword with firebolt charges on an Act 3 fire merc to make him a bit more useful (but still grossly underpowered cf Act 2 mercs), then it doesn't bother me so much.

[Obi2Kenobi]

For instance, the barbarian's 'war cry' skill occassionally stuns champions and uniques. That may well be a bug, but you wouldn't want to go round calling singer barbs abusive, for instance - despite the fact that most of them will use the bug to survive.

We're not going around calling them abusive as they don't intend to do it. It would still be used in the same way if it didn't.