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12-11-2003, 06:01 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-11-2003, 06:13 PM by IlleglWpns.)
I've been playing a charger paladin lately , and it's been so much fun that I decided to write a guide. This first two parts will focus on skill point allocation, and using charge effectively. The equipment section will go up when I have more time. Any corrections/additions are welcome.
Part I: Skill Allocation
As a charger the focus of your build is doing ginormous physical damage. The bulk of your charge damage will come from the two synergies (vigor and might), which when maxed add 800% to damage vs. 575% from the skill itself. I highly recommend maxing both. Maxing charge, vigor, and might uses 60 skill points. A typical character tops out at level 80-85 which means 92-97 skill points counting quest rewards. That means there are quite a few points left. A few of the (IMHO) better options are listed below:
I: Get a better damage dealing aura. Might is great in normal but is lacking in some key areas: For starters, Might does not provide an AR boost. With charge's massive AR bonus it might not seem necessary, but as you'll see later missed charges are a serious problem. The additional AR from, say, fanaticism might not seem like much, but even a few extra % is helpful. Furthermore if you're using conversion as a support skill might is completely useless. You need to hit to convert, and conversion provides no AR boost whatsoever.
The second problem is redundancy. When playing in parties it seems like everyone uses either a holy freeze or might merc, rendering your might moot.
II. Get a crowd control option. One of the nice things about charge is that as long as you're zipping around smacking things into oblivion you won't need crowd control. However things can and do get ugly in a hurry, and certain enemies (especially fast ones) will need more than a merc to distract them. Conversion is perfect for this role because monsters absolutely LOATH their converted brethren. Convert a couple and watch the rest jump on them like Rush Limbaugh on Vicodin.
Because of severe diminishing returns you won't need more than 5 points into conversion. This combined with +skills will do nicely. However you MUST support conversion with the appropriate gear and skill choices for it to be effective. More on this in the equipment section.
Holy freeze is the other option (indeed it's probably the canonical one). The slowdown from holy freeze benefits chargers in several ways. Slower monsters mean that they will reach melee range later, which gives you more time to react and pick a target appropriately. Slower monsters also mean that you can tempt fate (hit and run while the monster is in its swing animation) more effectively. This is especially useful on act bosses and other things you can't knock back with charge.
However since holy freeze is available on mercenaries it might be better not to spend the points in it yourself (since the extra cold damage is useless to you).
III.
Get more defense. If you're using a shield pumping holy shield and defiance is always a good idea. It's not quite as effective with a charger since you're constantly moving around, but there may be occasions where you are forced to tank and there the extra defense and blocking will come in handy.
IV. Get a PI solution
PIs are no longer nearly as common as they were in 1.09, but they are still a pain. Your shiny new BOTD Colossus blade doing a hojillion points of damage won't do squat the first time you run across a stone skin maggot boss.
You have two options here. One is to defeat phys immunities with gear. This means getting a wand with amp damage charges and putting it on weapon switch, or getting a weapon with a high % to cast amp damage.
The second is to invest skill points. There are three possible routes here, one is to invest in vengeance, the other is to use blessed hammer, the third is to use sanctuary. The blessed hammer route has a certain elegance to it since it shares a synergy with charge. Pumping concentration is a good idea, since it increases both charge and hammer damage. However blessed hammers are hard to use and in general a charger won't have the mana pool or equipment to cast hammers for long. Vengeance is a more intriguing option, because its synergies enhance your defensive capabilities. The resist xxx auras now increase maximum resists, so by pumping them you can simultaneously have a decent phys immune killer and greatly increased resistance to the elements. The problem here is striking a good balance between damage, AR, and mana consumption, but it can be done. Both options will require at least 20 points to be effective in hell, so don't be stingy!
For blessed hammer I suggest 20 in concentration and 10 in hammer.
For vengeance I suggest 10-20 in vengeance (for the AR), 10 in resist fire, and 10 in resist lightning.
The third option, sanctuary, is perhaps the most efficient one. Sanctuary negates the resistances of undead monsters. This means undead Physical Immunes will have NO physical resistance while under the influence of sanctuary. Since the only physical immunes you have to face are undead (the spectres in the arcane sanctuary) it comes in handy. 1 point in sanctuary will suffice for this purpose. However if you plan to use the knockback effect of sanctuary as well you will need a greater investment.
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Very nice start and it follows in a tradition here (Occhi's, Swarm's, etc) of being stylishly written as well as sound analysis.
A couple of thoughts:
1) I think in a guide you really do need to talk people through developing the character through the game. Where to put points at level 85 is a bit redundant for many people. New people might not get that far, hc players might not get that far for a different reason and I just think in general that where should I be when I start Hell is the single most useful point to know about
2) What about the Charge bug? Is it fixed now? If it isn't how do you get round it?
3) Is the "vengeance in a can" option still viable for PIs? This option is using a fast high elemental damage weapon with Zeal and was actually pretty popular in 1.09
4) You last sentence is spending a lot of points on Vengeance. Can you not get by with less?
5) You need to explain the two types of plus enhanced damage. For this build Cruel is incredible and Lay of Hands adds trivial damage, this is not at all obvious
6) More on the moving would be nice. I had an epiphany with Charge when I finally realised it's a ranged attack not a melee attack and started lining up my shots, taking care not to get trapped in crowds, and so on. It made a big difference for me and it took a long time for the penny to drop
7) We need to know whether it works for HC Hell because the general feeling is that melee borders on impossible. Did you finish Hell? Did you die? Could you have finished Hell without dying do you think?
8) Quote:More on this in the equipment section
**Polite cough** ;)
9) I'm in two minds about using things like phys and amp in a guide. I do it all the time in posts and it's not perhaps a bad thing if you're writing for new people to acclimatise them to our jargon. On the other hand, it is for new players.....
You might want to consider tidying it up, or at the very least we'll expect you to answer the What does "phys" mean? posts if we get any :)
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12-11-2003, 07:51 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-11-2003, 06:05 PM by IlleglWpns.)
Part II: Using charge
To use charge effectively, you must first know WHAT charge does and how it works [insert obligatory Sun Tzu quote about knowing thyself]. Charge is very simple in execution. When you click on the enemy your paladin will rush forward and smite them with great furiousnessness, knocking them back and causing a variety of debilitiing symptoms, such as nausea, dry mouth, diarhhea, and (hopefully) death. However you cannot charge if:
a ) You are within weapon range of the enemy
b ) If you're out of mana (duh)
Given that charge does knock monsters back, you can in theory keep charging at your hapless target until they become a nasty looking stain on the ground. Should this happen they will have NO chance to retaliate whatsoever as knockback causes the stun animation to occur.
In practice things are a fair bit more complicated. You won't always have the room to continually charge one target, you might misclick and end up walking into the midst of the enemy, you might be blocked in a doorway, the enemies might be in a tight formation, etc etc. However if you keep one thing in mind you will be able to use charge efficiently.
PICK YOUR TARGETS!
If you charge the wrong target you will end up in the midst of a mob, unable to charge, and you will have to waste time breaking off contact and running away to set up another attempt. If you charge the right target you will experience the rush of taking down 10 enemies in the blink of an eye, without suffering a scratch in return.
As they say in (badly translated) fighting games. 10 HIT COMBO! FRAWRESS VICTOLY!
The general rule is never to charge enemies that are right next to other enemies. You want to charge opponents that are physically separated, so that you can immediately start a charge after a first. For example:
Enemies are in a tight cluster:
Code: oo
ooo
oo
BAD
Enemies are spread out:
Code: o o
o o
GOOD!
You also want to keep in mind where you'll end up if your first charge doesn't end up killing the opponent:
Enemies approaching in a line (x stands for you):
Code: x o o o
If you charge and kill the enemy it will look like this:
Code: x o o
If you charge and don't kill the enemy it will look like this:
Code: x oo o
In this case charging again will result in you standing right in front of a monster, which is bad.
However you can prevent this by charging from a different angle. Instead of charging head on, come in obliquely as follows:
Code: o o o
x
After you charge at the closest enemy you will be in a much more favorable position:
Code: <----- monster's rotting corpse lies here
x
o o
What do you do if all the enemies are in tight groups? If you're facing more than one such group at once you can use a technique known as "the ping pong".
Code: Group 1: Group 2:
oo ooo
oooo <---- x ----> oooo
oo ooo
Charge a target in group 1, then charge one in group 2. Repeat until all are dead, or until you can't charge anymore.
Another use for the ping pong is to charge in confined environments. Often you'll have one enemy pinned against a wall or some other terrain feature, which prevents you from charging him to death. In this case ping bong between that enemy and another one as follows:
Code: o <--- x ---> o | <---- obstacle
There are also modified variants of the ping pong where you bounce between three, or even four enemies at once. This works well to break apart a group of tough, but slow moving enemies (like frozen creepers).
But what if the ping pong isn't possible? Well there is still another option. I call this "culling the herd", because you want to pick off monsters who are straggling at the edge of the pack.
Let's say your monster group looks like this:
Code: ooo
oooo
oo
o
Seens impenetrable at first glance, doesn't it? Unfortunately for them, they aren't as safe as they think they are.
If you charge from the directions indicated:
Code: | |
VoooV
oooo
oo
-->o <--
]
You can actually knockthe monsters away from the mob where they are summarily dispatched. Furthermore by doing this you can actually cause such turmoil in the enemy ranks that they break formation to chase after which leads to more exp for you and messy deaths for them.
Charge Bugs:
Unfortunately in patch 1.10 there are a number of charge bugs. Individually none are particularly serious, but collectively they can cause problems, so it's worth your while to be aware of them.
1) If you charge when out of mana you will freeze in place. This can be cured by switching weapons.
2) If you charge while in blocking animation (and possible while in hit recovery) you will freeze in place. This can be cured by switching weapons.
3) If you charge while being knocked back, you will charge BACKWARDS until you change position (by walking or running).
1) can be avoided by watching your mana carefully, using mana steal and/or mana potions.
2) can be avoided by not charging massed ranged attackers head on.
3) can only be avoided by not getting hit. Otherwise you will have to live with it.
Using the above tactics will allow you to charge with precision and style. However knowing how to use charge is only part of the battle. Knowing how and when to you use your auras, supporting skills, and equipment as well as knowing how to pick your battles are essential to victory. Coming up next in Part III: General Strategy (Know Thy Enemy)
Brista:
The above is my first shot at explainng how to use charge well. I'll probably end up adding a section on charge bugs (there are still some in 1.10 final, though not nearly as bad as 1.10s) and some of the nicer "hidden" features of charge, but this is really the meat of the guide so I wanted to get it out of the way.
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You haven't played much with Charge yet have you? :unsure:
Anyway . . . in response to your first post, have you noticed that half the PI monsters you have to get through are Undead? Have you also noticed the power Sanctuary when applied through a Charge attack? Try it. They make a good match.
Point 2:
Quote:Given that charge does knock monsters back, you can in theory keep charging at your hapless target until they become a nasty looking stain on the ground.
Here I would suggest listing the monsters that cannot be knocked back eg. Izual, Diablo and the Ancients.
Point 3: Regarding your first diagram, one of the preferred tactics is to drag the pack back towards you a little and if they still remain in pack form, target a monster at the back of the formation. Once in a while it can get a little suicidal, but most of the time you'll bounce the edges in and stand a good chance of peeling a back one off for subsequent auto-Charging. Works best with a Charge/Thorns build and is also superb for a Charge/Sanctuary attack.
Regarding the formation of three in a row, I agree on taking an angle (if you have the speed), but the best target is not the front monster. ;)
I'm glad you mentioned the "ping pong", but normally I find this is most appropriate for holding off two Moon Lords rather than two packs of monsters. The tactic can vary widely depending on monster speed, like for instance being able to lock up three Frozen Creepers in a triangle formation (due to their slow speed). There's also the Iron Wolf assisted three-way ping pong where a centrally positioned Cold Iron Wolf can lock up one foe at close range while you run your Paladin 'through' him to lock up a fast monster on either side . . .
O<-----> X >----> WO ---------------->O
. . . Where the "O"'s are the monsters, "X" is the Pally and "W" is the Iron Wolf. BTW The Iron Wolf solves many problems for a Charger, but creates a few more, like crowd control gets easier if you have to stop, but frustrating suicidal merc actions are higher than normal.
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12-11-2003, 02:20 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-11-2003, 05:56 PM by IlleglWpns.)
Quote: You haven't played much with Charge yet have you?
Uh, I've played with it quite a bit actually. What brought this particular non sequitur on?
Quote:Here I would suggest listing the monsters that cannot be knocked back eg. Izual, Diablo and the Ancients.
Good idea. I also plan to have a section devoted entirely to act bosses.
Quote:Anyway . . . in response to your first post, have you noticed that half the PI monsters you have to get through are Undead? Have you also noticed the power Sanctuary when applied through a Charge attack? Try it. They make a good match.
Yes, but I'm not sure if sanctuary was bugged in the final patch. I heard rumors about the melee bonus not applying. Although the knockback of sanctuary is intriguing when combined with charge. I'll edit the skills section to mention it.
Quote:Point 3: Regarding your first diagram, one of the preferred tactics is to drag the pack back towards you a little and if they still remain in pack form, target a monster at the back of the formation. Once in a while it can get a little suicidal, but most of the time you'll bounce the edges in and stand a good chance of peeling a back one off for subsequent auto-Charging. Works best with a Charge/Thorns build and is also superb for a Charge/Sanctuary attack.
How do you target the one at the back through the ranks of its compatriots? Seems to me you'd get blocked and stop.
Quote:Regarding the formation of three in a row, I agree on taking an angle (if you have the speed), but the best target is not the front monster.
Never said it was, though it makes relatively little difference in the example I gave. Which one to target initially depends on many circumstances, there's no hard and fast rule like "target the back" or "target the middle", though generally you want to end up as far as possible from the bulk of the monsters.
As for speed, well given that vigor is a synergy for charge I don't see any "if" about it. Besides, a slow charger is a dead charger.
Quote:I'm glad you mentioned the "ping pong", but normally I find this is most appropriate for holding off two Moon Lords rather than two packs of monsters. The tactic can vary widely depending on monster speed, like for instance being able to lock up three Frozen Creepers in a triangle formation (due to their slow speed). There's also the Iron Wolf assisted three-way ping pong where a centrally positioned Cold Iron Wolf can lock up one foe at close range while you run your Paladin 'through' him to lock up a fast monster on either side . . .
Another use of the ping pong when you are in a confined environment...there are lots of subtleties to this trick that I should mention. And you are right in that in won't hold off two group of monsters, but it will thin their ranks quite a bit.
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Quote:a ) You are within weapon range of the enemy
It's been my experience that you can charge from a much closer range now if not melee. It might be good to find out just what this range is. Is it based off of weapon range? If not you may be able to zip from a zeal to a charge quite easily.
Also I didn't notice any mention of knockback items in your guide. These are great if you are too close and miss a charge. Even without the charge attack rating bonus you usually have a 50%+ chance to hit which means you may revert to a normal attack and knock a monster back before you even realized you missed the charge. :)
Another useful aura at times is holy freeze, if for no other reason than just running away. Also you can use it for moving around, it's like using vigor only you don't have to think as fast . ;)
Someone awhile ago who used charge more than I did said vigor was a great aura to use while charging because the faster move allowed you hit more often. In PvP he got my amazon a few times this way. :D 1.10 charge seems pretty fast so I'm not sure if this applies significantly or at all anymore.
A couple questions:
How do you get around desync which is so common on bnet? A lot of times I charge something that looks like it is in front and it turns out to be behind. <_<
How do you get around that new (I think?) charge bug where you are frozen? The only way I have seen is the monster you charged dies but that is often impossible. How does this happen exactly? It seems like it might be you can't get around an obstical but I haven't experienced it enough to say.
Quote:You haven't played much with Charge yet have you?
Uh, I've played with it quite a bit actually. What brought this particular non sequitur on?
It's his way of trumping his own experience. He uses it often, just ignore it. :P
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Quote:QUOTE
Point 3: Regarding your first diagram, one of the preferred tactics is to drag the pack back towards you a little and if they still remain in pack form, target a monster at the back of the formation. Once in a while it can get a little suicidal, but most of the time you'll bounce the edges in and stand a good chance of peeling a back one off for subsequent auto-Charging. Works best with a Charge/Thorns build and is also superb for a Charge/Sanctuary attack.
How do you target the one at the back through the ranks of it's compatriots? Seems to me you'd get blocked and stop.
I think the idea is that as you approach the guys in the middle, those behind the front target will spread out to either side of it, trying to flank you, which could allow you to knock the front monster back, thereby setting up chargelock.
For Act Bosses, Holy Freeze would probably be best, for a couple of reasons.
1. With the exception of Mephisto and Andariel, all Act Bosses "fly" solo. What this means is that you won't be triggering any LEB types and can concentrate on slowing down the boss.
2. Only Duriel is immune to cold, IIRC, so all other Act Bosses should be slowable. This will allow you to charge into them, causing them to use "melee AI"(by this, I mean they start using melee attacks more, which might keep Diablo from using his LBOD so often), and by the time their attack lands(slowed by HF), you'll have charged away. Then charge them again.
My $0.02. :)
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IlleglWpns,Dec 12 2003, 02:11 AM Wrote:Uh, I've played with it quite a bit actually. What brought this particular non sequitur on? You guide so far scratches the surface of the Charger.
Quote:Yes, but I'm not sure if sanctuary was bugged in the final patch. I heard rumors about the melee bonus not applying. Although the knockback of sanctuary is intriguing when combined with charge. I'll edit the skills section to mention it.
Well I haven't found of if the damage bonus applies yet, but I do know that the Resistance pierce versus PI's is working just fine.
Quote:How do you target the one at the back through the ranks of its compatriots? Seems to me you'd get blocked and stop.
Click and hold. Often contact is initiatiated with targets in the front causing you to let off one or two Charge attacks on the way to the monster at the back. The forerunners generally get pushed into the middle and then you can get a good chance at peeling off one that's just poking out a little.
Blocklock? Well since half of those who are in a position to attack will be in a state of knockback, I've never had a problem with this. Even moreso when using the likes of a Maul.
Quote:Quote:Regarding the formation of three in a row, I agree on taking an angle (if you have the speed), but the best target is not the front monster.
Never said it was,
Then say so, because your diagram indicates something quite clear, which is as good as stating that the target in the front is the one to go for.
Quote:though it makes relatively little difference in the example I gave. Which one to target initially depends on many circumstances, there's no hard and fast rule like "target the back" or "target the middle", though generally you want to end up as far as possible from the bulk of the monsters.
Yes, there is a hard and fast rule. "Target anything that sets you up for a subsequent 'safe shot' at a target that can suffer knockback". For your diagram I'd head for the one in the middle (if I as paying attention) and immediately switch to click & hold tactics versus the one that started out closest.
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Sir_Die_alot,Dec 12 2003, 03:48 AM Wrote:It's his way of trumping his own experience. He uses it often Reeeally? Well scurry off then. Go find some links for me that indicate my "way of trumping my own experience that I use often." :D If do it often, you should have no trouble. :P :lol:
BTW I know what "trumping" means and I'll just point out that your statement makes no sense until the word is replaced with "trumpeting". :P
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12-11-2003, 09:23 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-11-2003, 09:57 PM by IlleglWpns.)
Quote: You guide so far scratches the surface of the Charger.
Unfortunately YOU seem to have provided no special insight whatsover.
Quote:Click and hold. Often contact is initiatiated with targets in the front causing you to let off one or two Charge attacks on the way to the monster at the back. The forerunners generally get pushed into the middle and then you can get a good chance at peeling off one that's just poking out a little.
Interesting, I wasn't aware that click and hold would be so robust (in that your character would automatically navigate around the mob, knocking things out of the way to get at the back).
UPDATE: I just tried this. Results were mixed. Most of the time it works as advertised, but a few times he would get blocked and just stand there. It's also quite slow, in that the pathfinding algorithm seems to take a while to do its thing. Overall it's a useful technique in some cases, but it can be quite dangerous if you don't have sanctuary.
Quote:Blocklock? Well since half of those who are in a position to attack will be in a state of knockback, I've never had a problem with this. Even moreso when using the likes of a Maul.
Not blocklock, BLOCKED, as in physically blocked by the enemy.
Quote:Then say so, because your diagram indicates something quite clear, which is as good as stating that the target in the front is the one to go for.
My diagram indicates nothing of the sort, the choice of initial target was essentially arbitrary. The accompanying text makes it clear that the important thing is the angle of approach. It's not my fault if you see things that aren't there.
Quote:Yes, there is a hard and fast rule. "Target anything that sets you up for a subsequent 'safe shot' at a target that can suffer knockback". For your diagram I'd head for the one in the middle (if I as paying attention) and immediately switch to click & hold tactics versus the one that started out closest.
Part 2, does not follow from part 1.
It doesn't matter WHAT monster you target in the example I gave, they all end up leaving you with sufficient room to charge again as long as you don't approach head on.
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No reply to my suggestions? :P
I'd personally aim for the middle guy in the line, so that I can either pingpong the head and tail, or even better, triangle-strike all 3.
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I actually did edit my original post to include holy freeze.
Anyway, in my example the assumption was that you would charge until the initial target was dead, so no three way ping pong necessary, though if you lacked space that would be the best way to go about things.
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12-11-2003, 10:35 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-11-2003, 10:38 PM by AtomicKitKat.)
A Charger with a decent(level 10-ish) Smite can control a room all by himself, if played right. :)
Charge into the first monster coming through one doorway, smite him the moment you come out of it, then charge back the other way and do the same. Might be a little inefficient now, what with increased regen for all monsters, but it would keep them from swarming into the room and literally cramping your style. :)
Edit: Noticed one more thing that I've been meaning to address. If I recall correctly, blocking is at normal when charging, because it's an attack animation, rather than an actual run. Might want to check up with Jergul on that too.
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For an example of your attitude I have no further to go than to refer to your reply and your cute little "Well scurry off then." statement. Then you bring in another of your favorite tricks: little word nitpicks, another non sequitur. (By the way http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=trumping See definition #2) All of which are just cheap shots to chafe the person you are replying to. With me at least you have some excuse, with IlleglWpns you had no such reason.
If you have useful information for a guide you should either write your own or kindly suggest it to the person taking the time to make one. It's certainly not nessesary to put someone down as the starting sentance of your post.
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Quote:same. Might be a little inefficient now, what with increased regen for all monsters, but it would keep them from swarming into the room and literally cramping your style. :)
Does PMH work with smite? It's on all sorts of items now it shouldn't be too difficult to get.
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Wouldn't even need to, if you had decent poison damage on your weapon or charms. Poison apparently negates ALL monster regen(but not player regen)
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I'm aware of poison but it lasts nowhere near as long as PMH. PMH you can hit and while I'm not sure how long it lasts I know it's measured in minutes not seconds.
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12-11-2003, 11:53 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-11-2003, 11:55 PM by Obi2Kenobi.)
Poison works with smite?</onlyplayedasmiteruntillevel17sofarandfoundnopoisoncharmsbutthoughthatitdoesn'tworkwhenreadingtheamazonbasin> (imagine if there were any real tags that long)
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Quote:If you have useful information for a guide you should either write your own or kindly suggest it to the person taking the time to make one.
I did suggest information to add. I wasn not aware that the suggestions were unkind
But for an unkind comment . . .
Quote: It's certainly not nessesary to put someone down as the starting sentance of your post.
One thing that really pisses me off about online forums is how frequently people from certain countries get wound up over percieved slights that they have read and interpreted in the most baffling ways.
I AM NOT AMERICAN!!! :angry:
So stop judging things I post as if they were written by an American directed at Americans! <_<
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Quote:One thing that really pisses me off about online forums is how frequently people from certain countries get wound up over percieved slights that they have read and interpreted in the most baffling ways.
I AM NOT AMERICAN!!!
So stop judging things I post as if they were written by an American directed at Americans!
Uh, I'm not american either. No offense, but you would have to be blind not to take the first line of your post as anything but an insult. It was completely unnecessary and served no purpose but to provoke. Fortunately I have a thick skin, but that doesn't change the fact that what you wrote was rude. Period.
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