$315 USD... for a broken sword.

[Drasca]

Thanks for sharing Pete, this will hopefully get me pointed in the right direction.

The fencing club has some good club officers that do informal classes for new-comers, and there's also a heavy french accented woman who everyone looks up to and drills with some eccentric exercises: playing patty-cake to improve hand coordination, blind hand-push/release games to train parry and engage instincts, and footwork exercises to reinforce proper advance, retreat and double advance/retreat technique and reactive use.

Right now I'm working on doing the basics correctly. Training instincts to associate retreat and parry, engage and advance in the right sequence, and staying in a proper stance throughout. In fact that lesson you gave about traditional and modern style puts the theory and practice in better perspective. In drills and sparring, I'm sacrificing some fun and holding back aggressiveness, to quail speedy wild flailing for slower controlled technique. They tell me the speed and power will come once the technique is practiced, and I believe that. The potential speed and quick reactions will still be there when I need it, and if the proper technique is ingrained into muscle memory then I can utilize it when instinct kicks in.

I hope to do it right the first time (relatively of course) so I get it right as a beginner so I don't correct it later. I wish I could spare more time to attend club meetings, but such is life in balancing needed work and hobby.

[--Pete]

Hi,

"There are only fencers, potential fencers, and hopeless invalids." - Aldo Nadi

Welcome to the top group :)

--Pete

[Haider]

Great choice Rydderch.

I am currently waiting for this to be outfitted with a historical scabbard by Christian Fletcher:


A nice short sword (the blade is only 65cm long) from Albion Armorers


and this should arrive this week from Armour Class:


A munition grade Mortuary Hilted sword

[Rhydderch Hael]

Ah, an Albion Riding Sword. No fullers. ;) :)

I'm not much of a basket man myself, but of all basket hilts, a mortuary is the most cool.

[Rhydderch Hael]

I just received pictures of the sword's work-in-progress. It has been five weeks since the start of the hilt and scabbard commission. The developed guard is complete, and what is left is the scabbard.

Earthlink, as usual, has stuffed up the uploading capability of its customers when it "improved" its web-based site builder to Trellix. It's not really responding for me. Maybe, one day, I'll learn just how to use FTP features. <_<

Rest assured, the "Dark Spark" looks like the twin to the catalog sword already depicted. You wouldn't be missing anything new between my sword and the catalog one, at least until the scabbard is completed (that is the"new" new aspect of this particular sword, but only because of the squared chape). Even the arms of the crossguard of mine are bent in the same direction as the catalog sword. No diff.

[--Pete]

Hi,

That's one handsome sword, then. If ever you get a chance to post the sword and scabbard, I'd still like to see them. But thanks for what you have shown -- a very nice transition weapon from an interesting period in the history of the blade.

--Pete

[Rhydderch Hael]

Oh, I'll chance it: hotlinked from www.axeforum.com, where I've started up a review thread on the sword.



That's the unfinished core of the scabbard over the blade. I can't tell if it's perspective distortion from the photograph (note the vanishing-point lines established by the rings, coupled with the knowledge that the sword is resting on those rings at an angle on the ground) but the scabbard core's profile taper should be following the lines of the blade. Note that the tip of the scabbard is squarded away though, as that is intentional for the flat chape I requested. The typical chape style Christian Fletcher goes for is a pointed one that conforms to the sword's tip profile.

[Guest]

Im always happy to see some one really learning to fence. I think its one of the most rewarding and satisfying sports you can become involved in.

Be prepared for the early learning to seem mundane and trival, but perservere. But all those little boring movements you will be practicing will eventually become wonderful tools which you call up with only a quick thought allowing you to actually think about your matches on a broader way, than you could now.

Anyway, good luck. I hope you enjoy it.

[Occhidiangela]

Congrats, Rhydd, on your new acquisition. :D

[Rhydderch Hael]

Thank you to all. Now, if I could only acquire it. ;)

From the photo, it looks like the commission is nearly complete. I'd honestly expect that it will finally be in my hands by somewhere in the next coming week.

Now, time to wonder if it would be possible to create a Diablo-themed sword out of any of these available ATrim blade patterns...No small feat, given that the Broad Sword from Diablo 1 (a favorite look of mine) is in reality a leaf-blade, for example.

[Rhydderch Hael]

Awww, crap. Now look at what you've made me do... ;)

An SFI Museum Store's Fantasy Medieval Leaf Blade, coupled with a Type 8 Guard from Christian Fletcher, with whatever grip cover style of one's personal taste (I'd go Gothic), and you'd have something that could pass muster as the Broad Sword of D1.

Damn. Now I'm going to have to try and justify whatever else I do not need $600 for, so that I might even begin to think about it... ;)

[Rhydderch Hael]

I don't even have my first sword in hand yet, and I'm ready-set to get another... dang.

These are some Photoshopped drafts of what such a sword might look like, and I've come to assure myself that one like these will become my second sword.

[Rhydderch Hael]

Albion Arms is releasing this sword as its most recent product. A fully faithful reproduction of a historic Swedish sword, as designed and crafted by one of the finest swordsmiths you'll find today. The measures are precise, the maker is highly skilled and clean in his lines, and every attention to detail has been made. This is, no doubt, one of the most exacting and finest-made European war swords you'll see reproduced in the 21st century...

...it also happens to be listed in price for a cool two and a half grand. :unsure:

Sure, it's a real sword. Unfortunately, we live in an age were swords are not an implement that would spell the difference between life & death, which is where its use & wear would be most justified. Which means that while it looks like a real sword, feels like a real sword, and sure as heck will cut like a real sword— there's no one in this day in age who'd dare spend $2,500 on a real sword, and then treat it like one.

What a very, very lovely piece of wall decoration, is it not?

Back in the day, a sword and horse would cost more than a year's salary to purchase. But those were times when the purchase spelled the difference between those who survive under the threat of a sword, or those who live in spite of its menace. It would have been "money well spent", and that notoriously expensive sword was put to hard use. After all, the knight's life was the more infinitely valuable commidity in the exchange, no?

But those are the rules of their days, not ours. Even I have my limits as to the purchases of a sword, and I won't spend more on 3 pounds of steel than what I can get a 3,000 pound car for.

[--Pete]

Hi,

From the site you linked to:

No effort is spared to make the swords true to the original, not only in dimensions but also in performance and aesthetic details.

The blade is 1075 steel, hand-ground and finished to a high satin finish.

To me, the essence of a sword is the blade. And the essence of the blade is the material and workmanship. I'm pretty sure that the original, made at the end of the 15th century, was not made from composition controlled steel, melted in a modern furnace then hot rolled and machine worked.

Such a sword, based on the product of an extremely advanced (by comparison) society is (to me) as much a fake as a Viking ship, perfect in its dimensions but made of wood colored fiberglass. It looks good, but it has no soul.

What a very, very lovely piece of wall decoration, is it not?

Yes, it is. But a cast or dropped forged sword would look as nice on the wall and be a lot easier on the wallet. Neither is "authentic", both are just replicas. Now, if you want to use it to slice plastic bottles filled with water, or to cause deadly harm to cardboard or plywood, then take full advantage of the abilities of modern metallurgy and design. A carbon composite blade with ceramic edges would give you speed and power that these replicas will never match :)

The originals are precious because of their history as much as anything. Replicas can capture the beauty, which is only skin deep -- and the "skin" of steel is very thin. As you point out, there is little use for swords today, other than as sporting goods. And that is another topic entirely.

But they sure are prudy ;)

--Pete

[Rhydderch Hael]

Aye, I'm more than willing to agree that the steel of the original weapon was not a refined product that benefitted from Bessemer's legacy. But I'd also lay good odds that the repro's steel is in fact better because of it. No inclusions, better alloy specifications and controls, more free of slag.

I once lauded the benefits of a sword's soul and its age. Then I realized: old stuff's liable to break... ;)

"What a very, very lovely piece of wall decoration, is it not?"
I find myself agreeing with your remarks to my quote. Then again, my perspective tallied with yours from the very start. You see, this quote was made in sarcasm.

There's a point where the curve in functionality and the curve of price intersect: where you have to pay a certain amount to attain a brand new and reliable sword for cutting. You'll find that some $250-$300 is that starting point (depending on sword style origin, since you can get some practical katanas in the mid-250's). From that point on, the price goes up drastically, and the reliability even notches up a bit more. But there is a point where you can buy a sword that is so well-made and fully functional-- but considering just how much you've paid for it will prevent you from ever actually using it as a sword.

A sword that is several thousand dollars is less likely to be used for cutting practice than one that is just as reasonably functional for $375. It'll just get hung up and a wall and turned into an heirloom-- which is, as you've pointed out, just as likely a fate as some $50 stainless steel knockoff bought out of the knife store at the local mall! :)

[Rhydderch Hael]

...&nbsp; A carbon composite blade with ceramic edges would give you speed and power that these replicas will never match :) ...

There has been some discussion on exotic modern materials for the manufacture of swords at SFI. Namely, "..can you make a sword out of depleted uranium? It'd be 2.5 times denser than any steel.." and hypotheses on titanium and ceramics, even diamonds (not micro-diamond edged-- but the bevels themselves made of crystallized carbon).

A carbon/ceramic composite blade will be very light and very sharp, but doesn't transmit the shock of a hit in the same way a steel sword is made in consideration of. Furthermore, the durability is a question. Ceramic edges retain their sharpness in two ways: very fine spalling that creates micro-serrations at the edge, and the fact that the ceramic edge will spall evenly-- essentially wearing itself down from an fine edge to a finer edge (but wearing away nonetheless).

The most accepted conclusion in that: steel is still the king of sword metals, and any possible contender to that title hasn't been thought up yet (still wondering just what the heck the much-lauded "duranium" of the Star Trek universe is).

So, the question of the best sword material comes to be one of what is the best sword steel. And steel ain't steel-- the variations and alloys of steel are wide and complex. Though I have heard furtive whispers about the near-magical properties of the "L6 bainite katana"... ;)

[--Pete]

Hi,

But I'd also lay good odds that the repro's steel is in fact better because of it.

Depends on what qualities you're looking for, I guess. No question that the steel, as steel, is much better now than even one hundred years ago, much less five hundred. And if I were going into battle with a sword, I'd want the best modern steel I could get. But if I'm looking for a reproduction, then I don't want *better* steel than the original, I want the same grade, preferably made the same way. Of course, I'd even liefer have an original, complete with pits, discolorations and delaminations. I might fear to bang it against a pillow, much less a pillar, but the knowledge of its history would more than compensate me for its lack of usefulness (not that a fighting sword is of much real use nowadays anyway).

But still, I do admire what modern swordsmiths are doing in keeping alive an ancient tradition. And I'm glad that people like you are willing to spend their hard earned cash to keep said smiths in business. :)

--Pete

[--Pete]

Hi,

Although I've worked with some wizards in that field.

Compounds, alloys, HIPs, mixtures, matrices, etc. There are a lot of materials out there, many not available to people outside of R&D labs. I suspect that if swords were still serious weapons, those labs would have applied those materials or developed better ones. Just one, NiTiNOL, comes to mind as a much better sword material than any steel. It is a memory metal, it is almost totally resistant to any form of corrosion, it holds an edge better than carbon steel, it is comparable in density (maybe a bit lighter), on impact it goes through a martensite-austenite transition that can make it (locally and depending on mixture, grain size, etc) almost three times harder than steel, yet the remainder of the blade remains ductile and soft.

And that's just one material. From my scant knowledge of a few dozen. I suspect that "steel is still the king of sword metals" is a case of availability. I don't know of a modern swordsmith that has (or could even begin to afford) a modern materials lab. Hell, enough NiTiNOL to make the blade for the sword you are buying would put you back about two grand. The equipment needed to HIP that material would cost a goodly ten million.

Nope, with the only source of income for swords being collectors and aficionados, a DoD type research project is highly unlikely. So steel *is* the best material -- of those that the sword makers have tried or could reasonably be expected to try. And, of course, few collectors would want a truly modern sword anyway -- else why is there not a single sword with a decent (pistol) grip outside of the fencing community?

--Pete

[Guest]

Saying you would only want a reproduction that used the original steel doesnt make sense to me.

If a fairly ordinary carbon steel is used and and forged much as an original sword was, it will will look like an original sword and feel like one in the hand. If it had a higher tensil dtrength or a more elastic blade, I fail to see how that could make this reprodution a lesser item than a reprodution made with more primative steel.
They look the same, and feel the same and are both reproductions.

Now I understand the perspective that you might want no reproductions at all. An original item has a certain validity to it simply is not there in a copy. A reproduction is just an other name name for a "fake" no matter what its made of.



My self I have a reproduction and like it. Its build to the dimensions of an original light weight 2-handed sword and the blade is hand forged, although its a more workman like sword than any seen here.

Why do I like it ? Because I can walk out in my back yard and swing it around if/when I feel like it, and I get a kick out of that.
I used to fence and its fun to play around with an epee, but occassionally its a nice change to swing around a blade that might lop you poor enemy in half.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Saying you would only want a reproduction that used the original steel doesnt make sense to me.

OK, first a few background thoughts:

Swords have no real use today and haven't for well over a hundred years. I am not including the sporting toys (i.e., fencing epees, sabers and foils and their oriental kin in this). As backup to balky single shot firearms, swords still had a small purpose. With the invention of breach loaders and revolvers, they became an anachronism.

So, swords fall into two basic categories: Antiques, that are of value for their history and their beauty (and are too expensive for the likes of me), originally made when they still had a purpose which has since gone away. Or modern fabrications made either in imitation or for vanity. Not having any desire to go into the backyard and beat up on defenseless jugs filled with water, nor particularly wanting to fool myself that I had developed some skill in an art (actual sword fighting as opposed to fencing) that no longer has a real use, I do not desire "functional" swords, be they replicas or the fevered imaginary works of people who've never visited a museum and get their medieval and earlier concepts of history and weapons from fantasy books and novels.

So, if I were to buy a replica, I'd want it to be as true to the original as possible. If the original had a leather wrapped grip, I wouldn't settle for Naugahyde. If the pommel was held in place with the tang riveted over a button, I wouldn't want screw threads. If the the original had wrought iron rings and quillions, I wouldn't want cast aluminum. And if the original blade had to be babied to keep it from destruction, I wouldn't want something I could swing sideways into a telephone pole. Anything other is neither a replica not an antique. Simply a pretty toy.

Don't get me wrong, I like those pretty toys to look at. And I'm glad that the oldest profession still has its practitioners -- swords, BTW, predate money and thus probably predate hookers. I'm glad that there are some who, for whatever reasons, want to buy those swords. But it's not for me.

--Pete