Cloak of Shadows def bonus question

[Raziel]

Hi,

This was posted at T.A.B but since it's down..

How does the Assassin's Cloak of Shadows +defense bonus work? Is it applied before, after or in combination with a defense multiplier such as Defiance?

Would it be possible to make an Assassin with very high defense?

[Zath]

Cloak of Shadows' defense bonus should be additive with Defiance or any other skill that modifies defense. It's interesting to note that this probably applies to those skills with a debuffing effect too, such as Conviction and Battle Cry. If a low AR Barbarian planned to tackle the Ancients with Battle Cry for example, he may be surprised to find his defense debuffs completely negated by Madawc's Shout since the two would be additive instead of multiplicative. The same principle would work in reverse of course, and a Conviction enchanted unique monster may not be as great a threat to high defense characters as most are lead to believed.

Edit: I base my opinion on the fact that all these defense modifying skills invoke the same skill_armor_percent function in skills.txt. When this occurs with other functions, it has always resulted in their effects stacking in an additive manner.

[Raziel]

So in other words, CoS defense bonus sucks?

[Zath]

Well, if you have to put it that way, yes :lol:

I made a mistake by the way. The debuffing effect from CoS is using skill_armor_percent whereas the buff effect is using item_armor_percent. Stacked defense modifying effects should still remain additive however, even though that is just my best guess now :P I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong here.

[Zath]

I have been examining skills.txt in regards to this issue and decided that further testing was warranted. Here is how character defense is actually calculated in game (i.e. ignore what I posted above):

1): Find the base defense of a character. For player characters, this is just Dexterity/4 and rounded down. For hirelings this should be their Dexterity/4 rounded down, plus whatever defense they gain from levels. Summoned minions will have a base defense equal to what is set in monstats.txt, but golems will gain an additional bonus from skill points invested in Iron Golem.

2): Find the item defense of a character. This is the sum of all defense you obtain from items, which includes your helm, armor, shield, gloves, belts, and boots.

3): Apply item_armor_percent bonuses to the results of #2, then round down.

4): Sum up the results of #1 and #3 to obtain total character defense.

5): Apply skill_armor_percent bonuses to #4, then round down.

All item_armor_percent mods will stack additively with each other. All skill_armor_percent mods will stack additively with each other as well.

Sources of item_armor_percent mods include:

- Valkyrie defense bonus
- Spirit Wolf defense bonus
- Dire Wolf defense synergy from Spirit Wolf
- Grizzly defense synergy from Spirit Wolf
- Cloak of Shadows defense bonus

Sources of skill_armor_percent mods include:

- All Sorceress cold armors
- Paladin's Defiance, Conviction, Holy Shield
- Barbarian's Shout, Concentration, Iron Skin, Battle Cry
- Werebear defense bonus
- Cloak of Shadows debuff
- Shadow Warrior defense bonus
- Overseers whipping their minions
- Succubi defense curse

The result of this is that Cloak of Shadows can grant you a substantial defense bonus since it is effectively multiplying your base item defense. As you can see however, Cloak of Shadows' defense bonus stands out as the only item_armor_percent mod that is not applied to a minion. This suggests that it may be intended as a skill_armor_percent mod, and someone simply keyed in the wrong value for skills.txt. Of course, there is also the possibility that this was an intentional change meant to increase the Assassin's survivability in battle as well. Whether this is a bug or feature remains to be seen.

[whyBish]

.

So CoS is multiplicative!

That may be worth maxing if you grab a defiant merc, or can get a shout barb to party with... What is the def bonus for CoS?

--Removed the word cheese....

[Zath]

The defense bonus for Cloak of Shadows starts at +10%, then an additional +3% per skill level thereafter without a hard cap. Paladins and Barbarians will remain the only characters that can obtain 20k defense by themselves, but Assassins can still hit the 10k mark with Cloak of Shadows and a Defiance merc.

[Crystalion]

The defense bonus for Cloak of Shadows starts at +10%, then an additional +3% per skill level thereafter without a hard cap. Paladins and Barbarians will remain the only characters that can obtain 20k defense by themselves, but Assassins can still hit the 10k mark with Cloak of Shadows and a Defiance merc.

Actually, since Assassins specializing in Dragon Talon and Blade Fury are somewhat weapon choice insensitive, using (possibly a cube elited) Ribcracker makes some sense. At +100% DR this outstrips even 20 points into Cloak of Shadows, assuming that it also is applied as an item, not skill, step boost, and thus multiplies with a Defiance Merc.

Still, though it is a problem, I kind of like the fact that the Assassin has trouble being as (physically) sturdy as the other melee classes (and I don't think the CoS improvement is either unwelcome or comes close to making up for that). The hidden boost of - phys damage% with Fade suggests both Fade and CoS were tweaked, as you suggest, by design, to try to boost the survivability of a the melee Assassin a bit.

[Raziel]

At +100% DR this outstrips even 20 points into Cloak of Shadows, assuming that it also is applied as an item

I assume you mean "At +100% enhanced defense...", right?

The question is.. does Ribcracker's defense bonus calculate as item_armor_percent? If so.. the bonus is insane. Where does Swordguard play into this equation, by the way?

CoS can reach +70% enhanced defense (item_armor_percent) at skill level 20.

Is a tank assassin possible?? Is 10k actually a worthwhile thing to shoot for?

[Zath]

The 100% enhanced defense bonus for Ribcracker is described as ac% in UniqueItems.txt, and this is in turn translated to an item_armor_percent bonus in Properties.txt. While this may look exciting at first, keep in mind that all the enhanced defense bonuses on normal armor are described as ac% as well, and they obviously do not multiply your total defense. There must be some special coding in the game which handles ac% mods on items that don't normally have a defense value. How this defense bonus on the Ribcracker and other similar items are applied in game will therefore require more testing. I do not have access to any weapon or jewelry with an ac% bonus in game though, so someone else will have to test them, or possibly send me the respective v1.10s Atma files. I also remember nobbie or someone else writing a cube mod for the v1.10 beta, but I can't recall where it is or if it is compatible with v1.10s.

[Raziel]

I can send you a char holding ribcracker, if you like. I downloaded a dropmod for 1.10a and it works fine - well, at least, apparently fine - in 1.10s. That is, unique stuff drops like rain. Not hard to get a ribcracker that way either. The only thing i've noticed wrong with it in 1.10s is that Bul Kathos is still +2 skills.

If you want to PM me your email, i'll send you my low level barb which was holding a muled ribcracker in his stash... er, that is, if you're in any sort of mood to test :)

[adeyke]

For reference (for more items to test and in case it's proven that they work miracles ;)), these are all 1.10 non-armour items with enhanced defense:

10% The Mahim-Oak Curio
20% Grim's Burning Dead
20% Lycander's Aim
20% Lycander's Flank
20% The Oculus
25% Spire of Honor
50% Memory runeword
50-80% Steel Pillar
100% Ribcracker

[Zath]

I'll message you my e-mail now, Raziel. An authentic v1.10s Ribcracker would be ideal, but I guess an artificial one will have to do for now. I'll just have to remember to check again when I find an authentic one.

[Zath]

I just tested Ribcracker and it is indeed applying its defense bonus in the same manner as Cloak of Shadows. This has some profound consequences of course. Let's run some numbers just for fun:

Iron Barb:

- Base Defense: 25
- Item Defense: 2,500
- L13 Cloak of Shadows from Nadir: +46% item defense
- L25 Iron Skin: +270%
- L25 Shout: +270%
- L25 Concentrate: +340%
- L18 Defiance from Merc: +240%

Total Defense with Ribcracker: 75,335

Defiant:

- Base Defense: 25
- Item Defense: 2,500
- L13 Cloak of Shadows from Nadir: +46% item defense
- L25 Defiance: +310% defense
- L25 Holy Shield: +385% defense
- Defiance Synergy to Holy Shield: +300% defense

Total Defense with Ribcracker: 67,616

Assassin:

- Base Defense: 25
- Item Defense: 2,500
- L25 Cloak of Shadows: +82% to item defense
- L18 Defiance from Merc: +240%

Total Defense with Ribcracker: 24,055

Other Characters:

- Base Defense: 25
- Item Defense: 2,500
- L13 Cloak of Shadows from Nadir: +46% item defense
- L18 Defiance from Merc: +240%

Total Defense with Ribcracker: 20,995

It looks like a new era of rib cracking is soon to befall us. An upgraded elite Ribcracker can do upwards of 400 average damage per hit too. Add the defense, CB, IAS, FHR mods together and we have one monster weapon for sure. I wonder if this defense bonus works in v1.09d as well. It would be a shame if no one ever discovered this after all these years. That Iron Barb above would still have 61,305 defense without the bonus from the Nadir helm.

[Crystalion]

Let's run some numbers just for fun:

Very interesting. Are those numbers "run" or from actual lying character screen™ tests?

I wonder if this defense bonus works in v1.09d as well. It would be a shame if no one ever discovered this after all these years.

I mentioned the Ribcracker because I had been aware of the effect personally and had also read early v1.10beta posts that were excited about the elite upgrade recipe for it as a potential WW weapon. Lots of obscure goodies among the sets and uniques (I think the Darkglow normal and similar exceptional +max resist armor are generally overlooked, for example, as is the Iratha's set, but the effect is huge).

Since I expect hell monsters to have ~5000 AR the numbers you cite:
Iron Barb: 75k
Paly: 67k (and don't discount his high and fast blocking on top of this)
Assassin/other: ~20+k

would indicate getting monsters down to ~20% chance to hit (pre-block) for normal characters and under 10% for Palys and Barbs.

The Paly has to be the winner if you also consider having a Barb in his party affect him with Shout, no?

edit: as long as you've gone this far, shouldn't you, for grins, also calculate in a defense shrine? :D

[Raziel]

While I would readily agree that the Barbarian wins.. I have two questions/issues:

(1) Are barbs, paladins etc really going to drop whatever helm they're wearing for "Nadir"? It's good in theory, and the defense bonus is immense.. but in practice that helm has a whopping NINE charges on it, will be expensive to repair, and there are so many better helms out there it's not even funny..

(2) When you calculated the Paladin's defense you included Holy Shield. I assume either that's a mistake, or that the Paladin you cited wouldn't be wielding Ribcracker, because Holy Shield.. uh.. needs a shield :)

I dunno. I think that the Cloak of Shadows from "Nadir" is a great defensive bonus, but that few characters are going to actually go with it. It's good as a gauge of a theoretical maximum defense, but does it reflect the practical reality? I think in this regard the Assassin will win out.. even if this fact doesn't change her actual defense number ;)

How do the characters compare if _only_ the Assassin is using Cloak of Shadows? I imagine it's much better.

20k defense is no easy feat.. and when one combines it with level 25 Fade.. if you can get level 25 CoS, you can get level 25 Fade... that's a helluva tank. What if you combined that with a "Call to Arms" weapon that gave the Assassin [at most] level 13 Battle Cry? Level 13 BC lowers target's defense by 74% and target's damage by 37%...

Hmm wait, we've gotta use Ribcracker don't we. I suppose one could have a CTA on the switch and warcry things before thwacking..

[Raziel]

Idle thought: +Shadow Skills versus Ribcracker

Using the base item defense of 2,500, and assuming the level 18 defiance merc as above.. i'm going to apply my shoddy math skills to the following.

Case 1: Assassin loaded with +3 Shadow tree items: two claws, amulet, and circlet.

Case 2: Assassin wearing 2x +3 Shadow tree items, amulet and circlet, and wielding Ribcracker.

Note that i'm going to assume 2,500 base defense is somehow possible when you're wearing effectively no armor on your head. I really have no idea.

Case 1: Cloak of Shadows is at slvl 35. Defensive bonus is 112%.

2,500 base defense, increased by 112% = 5300 defense.
5300 increased by 240% from merc's Defiance = 18020 defense.

Case 2: Cloak of Shadows is at slvl 26. Defensive bonus is 85%.

2,500 base defense, increased by (85% + 100%) = 7125 defense.
7125 increased by 240% from merc's Defiance = 24225 defense. (that's fairly close to your number)

Now.. obviously theres a big numerical difference in the two defense ratings. I'd be very interested to know what that translates to in terms of to-hit. BUT - the Assassin in Case 1 gets to use Weapon Block.. potentially at slvl 35! Does anyone know what slvl 35 Weapon Block's actual block rating is? Guestimating an increase of 0.33 points per slvl after level 15, I estimate that by level 35 WB will be at, uh, about 62 or 63%.

So it's possible to have an Assassin with 18k defense and 63% blocking, provided one is crazy enough to max Cloak of Shadows and Weapon Block. Heck, all you'd need to do really is put 5 in Weapon Block. 5 points = 42% block, +15 to Shadow skills = 57% block. 15 more skill points only scores you 6 more percent! 18k defense and 57% blocking seems more reasonable.

I see the beginnings of a tankassassin build here. Of course, it relies on getting +15 to Shadow skills, which I often think is easier to achieve than it really is ;)

1 point in all other Shadow skills (max Shadow Master? level 35 Shadow Master, LOL @ immortality!).. I mean gawd, they're getting +15 to all.. there are so many good ones.. Venom.. Fade.. Claw Mastery.. Mind Blast.. BoS (hmm.. Fade or BoS).. that will be godly with just one point. 20 in Phoenix Strike?

20 CoS
5 WB
20 PS (5 prereq's)
20 SM (??)
20 Venom (??)

I wonder what level 35 Venom would be like?

Is this as good as a Defiant build? Hey, probably not. But then a Defiant can't block elemental attacks, a Defiant loses blocking while running, a Defiant doesn't have a free minion and a Defiant can't shut down all non-boss ranged attackers in an area for a bloody long time!

[Zath]

Crystalion:

I'll defense figures mentioned above were derived from the character screen. Preparing a statistically reliable sample to calculate character defense rating at each point would be far too much work for me to undetake :lol:

Armor shrines supposedly add 100% to your defense, but I have no idea where this bonus is factored in. The MPQs can't seem to give a clear answer to this question. Don't forget that no one will be blocking with a Ribcracker by the way, although Amazons can still benefit from their passives.

Raziel:

I was thinking maybe a Paladin can cast Holy Shield first, then equip himself with a Ribcracker. Having just checked stats.txt though, maybe that won't work as intended after all :P Without the benefit of Holy Shield, the Paladin is no different from normal characters, except he has the option of investing in Defiance himself. This would give him a relatively lack luster 20k defense without a Nadir helm, and 25k with one.

The Nadir helm was just to add a little more defense on top of whatever you already have. Although it is impractical in PvM combat, I can imagine some uses for it in legit PvP, especially with the dark sky effect interfering with ranged attackers. In any case, the majority of defense is originating from Ribcracker itself. As mentioned earlier, that Barbarian will still retain 61k+ defense even if he didn't have a Nadir helm.

Weapon Block using the standard D2 diminishing returns formula with a minimum of 20 and a maximum of 65. Level 35 Weapon Block will have a rating of 61%. You'll hit the next percentage point of 62% at level 36 though.

For skill point allocation in general, I think Dragon Talon would be a must have to utilize the 50% crushing blow on Ribcracker. In order to deal with physical immunes, I would also prefer a fire or cold based attack instead of poison so you can handle Wraiths and Gloams. This can be obtained either from Phoenix Strike with Fists of Fire as a synergy, or Wake of Inferno with Death Sentry. The later will probably be much easier to utilize if you can blind monsters with Cloak of Shadows. An A1 Rogue with Fire Arrow could be a valuable support in this case too, although I am uncertain how Inner Sight will react with Cloak of Shadows.

[Raziel]

Hey, you know, I completely forgot Ribcracker has Crushing Blow on it. Stupid me! :) As if it's not the perfect weapon in 1.10. OMFG, it's just ridiculous how good Ribcracker is now.

From my own testing, Inner Sight stacks with CoS. I've seen monsters with both the CoS "smoke" and the Inner Sight "sparkle" going at the same time. 1.10s tcp/ip /players 5 - not two days ago infact.

I've also asked in the past if someone could helpfully test a 1h Holy Shield switch to 2h, and I can confirm that HS goes away if you pull out a two-hander. So the Paladin application is pretty well sunk.

With the perfect +15 to Shadow skills, Venom will still be quite a formidable thing to have. But then, so is level 15 Fade.

62% at level 36 huh? Sounds like too much effort... I think i'll stick with level 5 WB + 15 Shadow skills giving me a damn respectable 57% (according to AS). Hey, does the Assassin gets 58 WB at slvl 21? If so, maybe level 6 WB. One skill point for that extra percent of blocking... :)

CoS: 20
WB: 6
SM: 20

All other shadow skills: 1 pt

DTalon: 18 (four kicks)

The question is.. with a level 35 Shadow Master... should/could you just let her handle PI/PoI for you? I mean.. a level 35 Shadow Master should be godly... right?

* Raziel mumbles something about Open Wounds, Gore Rider Myrmidion Greaves and elemental damage small charms..

(Also.. going back to an earlier point.. what would happen if you made an Iron Golem out of Ribcracker? Would it have insane defense AND be kickass thx to Crushing Blow?)

[Cironir]

On a purely practical note, the "blinding" effect of CoS is fairly essential in 1.10beta hell -- it makes dealing with ranged attackers as well as crowds much easier. While a slvl 20+ CoS would be awesome, the problem with this is that you cannot recast it before the duration is up (over 30 seconds at the values discussed here). Strictly practically speaking, after playing in Hell with a "from scratch" character, I'm not sure if the defense bonus makes really up for the "downtime" between battles.

-C.