Important!

[eppie]

You are right, it was very easy to read. (and my native language is not english as well).

The problem with this thing is that if you are writing something yourself (an article for a journal or a post on these forums), and you want to check the written piece for spelling mistakes, you very often wont see them, even after several times rereading it.

[goldfish]

I'm not a linguist, but I understand that English, Spanish, French, etc are more vowel-oriented than many other languages.

I lived in Guatemala for a time, and was fascinated by speakers of the indigenous languages (Quiche and Mam in the areas I lived, Cakchiquel and Kekchi in some other areas) who learned Spanish as a second language.

Those languages rely almost entirely on consonants, vowels are a bit of an afterthought. They have words which are all but impossible to pronounce for non-native speakers (with large numbers of T, Z, K, and Q, often stacked 4 consonants deep. Try pronouncing tztq a few time).

Many speakers of these languages had great difficulty in mastering the vowel-matching of articles that you have to do in Spanish. These speakers also tended to ignore word-end vowels in Spanish. "Mesa" (table) became "Mes", and they sometimes cut off the consonant earlier, so it sounded more like "Mes' ". And many of these speakers just used "el" for all nouns (instead of "el" for masculine nouns and "la" for feminine nouns) so to say the table, they would say "el mes' ". I found it fascsinating -- it was a very different problem than native speakers of English, who tend to run into other problems in learning Spanish.

[Occhidiangela]

I would have thought that one practicing law would by necessity be a very cunning linguist. :o *ducks*

Thanks for the insights on Central American language, that was very interesting indeed.

*tries to pronounce 'tztq'*

*wipes drool off of chin after fourth try*

Trickier than it looks.

[Doc]

I believe that would be pronounced Tzz-ztuk with a hard gutteral roll.

I had to dabble in ancient Pheonician once on a project, using the help of several other folks, a few books, and a lot of guess work. It was not a pleasant experience and made archaic Hebrew sound like ear pleasing music in comparison.

Vowels? We don't need no steenking vowels!!

[TriggerHappy]

I know this thread started with a research report on English, but Griselda 's post got me thinking about Hebrew, where vowels are represented by ancillary dots and lines below and around the consonant characters

In modern Israel the ancillary dots are only a study aid for those first learning to read or for immigrants just learning Hebrew.

When i went to school there (grades 4-8) everyone wrote without the dots. They are used neither in literature nor in hand written text. I'm not sure what equivalent they have in the English language as a study aid.

[TriggerHappy]

What continuously bugs me in North America is the butchering of Russian words. One in particular, Sputnik. Everyone pronounces is exactly as it's written, when it would be pronounced Spootnik.

Or the Russian word for "no", everyone pronounces it as "neeyet".
It makes me grind my teeth. The correct pronounciation is something more like "neht". The second letter is not an "eey" sound, but an "eh" sound.

But then i bet anyone who hears me pronounce "gullible" would likely have the same problems with me :(

[Occhidiangela]

Neyt is not pronounced "nyet?" but rather, "neht?" Where is the "ye" sound go to?

My brother took Russian formally, it was his major, he went to Russia/USSR to further his studies, he speaks with mastery if not fluency. He pronounces nyet as "nyet" not "knee-yet" as you suggest many Americans do. There is a "Ye" sound in there right after the n, as in the beginning of the word "yes." So I'd have to ask: what dialect are you talking about here, or what region of Russia are you from? Where did the 'ye' sound go?

Here in America, yes comes off at times as yah, yeah, yep, yez, etc.

I suppose you are referencing a regional tone, or difference? may account for discrepancies, just as Hoch Deutsch and Platt Deutsch are a bit different.

[TaiDaishar]

Vowels actually tend to matter least, and it's not surprising that (not counting y, of course), they tend to be less distinctive as letters go.

I know this thread started with a research report on English, but Griselda 's post got me thinking about Hebrew, where vowels are represented by ancillary dots and lines below and around the consonant characters (and lets also remember that the Torah is written with no vowel marks whatsoever (so I'm told by my wife)). Apparently English is not the only language where vowels are less relevant than consonants.

Just to correct you a bit: the Torah is written in vowels all the time, although you are right about the relative importance of vowels in Hebrew, most people write and read without vowels and vowels are mostly used only when writting a foreign word or a name.

Also the Torah has a lot more vowels than today's Hebrew and the combinations of vowels in the Torah can make you smash your head into a wall when trying to read it for your Bar Mitzva :)

[Jeunemaitre]

Also the Torah has a lot more vowels than today's Hebrew and the combinations of vowels in the Torah can make you smash your head into a wall when trying to read it for your Bar Mitzva :)

I guess my wife's experience is different than yours. She reminds me every saturday of the difficulty she had during her Bat Mitzva (sp? I can't remember exactly the name difference for the adapted ceremony for girls) because the Torah reading had no vowels. Of course it may also be a function of her eyesight: really nice girl, but she's blinder than a bat; or after all it may be my hearing, as she often reminds me that I'm a nice guy, but deaf as a post...

I guess we make a good combination...

[Copadope]

Thanks, Griselda. I see a trip to the library in my near future ;)

[TriggerHappy]

I come from the Ural mountains, that's right smack in the middle of Russia, right on the geographical Europe/Asia border.

However Russia doesn't have "dialects". More like slight accents. And when it comes to basic words like "no" everyone, anywhere, pronounces it the same.


I'll do my best to explain.

In Russian "NO" written as "HET" (i have to use english letters and all capitals since this forums doesn't recognise cyrillic letters).
Most native english speakers can't make the connection between the 'H' (Neh) and the 'E' (eh) without creating that annoying "i" or "ee" sound (like the one in "knee") inbetween the two letters, that's not supposed to be there.

They end up with "knee-yet".

*shudder*

Try to say "Neht" (with the h being silent) instead of "Neeyet".

The "E" is like the canuck "eh". Think of the difference in sound between "eep" and the question "eh?"

Ah, i got it!

Take the phrase "Net Worth" Take how you pronounce the word "Net" but now instead of making the N hard, make it soft like it is in "Needle".

Connect it with the canuck "eh".

There, now you have the correct pronounciation for "HET".

*phew* :)


The bigger problem is when my friends can't tell the difference between their pronounciation of "Niet" and my "Neht". Now that is real frustration :)

[Occhidiangela]

Nyet Tovarich

[TaiDaishar]

I guess my wife's experience is different than yours.  She reminds me every saturday of the difficulty she had during her Bat Mitzva (sp? I can't remember exactly the name difference for the adapted ceremony for girls) because the Torah reading had no vowels.  Of course it may also be a function of her eyesight:  really nice girl, but she's blinder than a bat; or after all it may be my hearing, as she often reminds me that I'm a nice guy, but deaf as a post...

I guess we make a good combination...

It depends on what language the Torah was, if it was in English than of course that Hebrew vowels won't exist there.

Maybe she meant the letter vowels, in Hebrew there are the symbolic vowels and letter vowels (letters that are used as vowels most of the time, kinda like in English) but the Torah doesn't lack in letter vowels as well as I'm quite puzzled of why she said that.

[TriggerHappy]

Netu Texta

[NiteFox]

Folks have been trying to prove excretus bovus for years. :P

Salvanos Domine contra excretus bovus

In other words, they have sought to become expert excrement expeditors :)

[SwissMercenary]

Nyet Tovarich

Another way to think of HET is a very, very dry, and short "Nyet", with the y removed.

[goldfish]

I poked around a tad on the internet and found links to a few pages in Mam and other native languages. (They are Bible translations, as the Bible tends to be the first thing translated).

Check out the first page of Genesis -- try to read some of these words quickly.

http://www.worldscriptures.org/pages/mamos...ostuncalco.html

tcyakil axx'ix tx'otx' anyone?

P.S. I sincerely hope that, um, "cunningness," is not limited to only practicers of law. :)

Edit: Changed smiley-face after I realized that " :P " might be inappropriate.

[goldfish]

There is a great debunking of this idea on the Crooked Timber web site:

http://www.crookedtimber.org/archives/000525.html

Basically, CT points out that this method (first and last always in place) ensures that words of three letters or less are always spelled correctly. The text in question uses a lot of those words to provide ample context which allows the reader to figure out the other words. "Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe" is not that hard to decipher given the number of short words which are not misspelled.

CT suggests that a truer test would be on a text without such short words, and offers the following:

Recrsheears souhld csrncotut secntnees unisg olny wodrs edxcieneg terhe lttrees. Tihs wlil psoe seevral polrbems beaucse wwreell-ittn Esglinh sluohd nlurtaaly cointan mnay sorht wrdos iunidnlcg pvrn-eborses, gtienvie csaes, cncoeinvets and (howpos) penrpsoitois, aongmst many ohtres. Lnoegr wrods soluhd povre useufl when tteinsg tihs ieda. Fatiensnredg wdors dviorecd form hplfeul cnotext mhgit aslo mkae fnie cidenadats for (siht) iiulsocnn. Eelhapnt. Preorpritay. Mainargl. Avtrinmdatiise. Boyend. Caainnbl. Wree tsohe tcekriir tahn tpyical sentecens? Ppostecirve linigusts wlil find csnuotntrcig w-llromefed, ativce senetcens fere form tohse mnay hfepull sroht wrods raehtr dcffiuilt. Tihs txet semes edecnive eonguh of (carp) taht ponit. Neevretslhes, linigstus slohud sitrve twoards tihs gaol. Cvioncning sitedus msut searapte ecah slaml wdor’s cepvidnino-troxtg rloe form the (admn) sipecfic ieda taht praticular otparhghiroc tosntrianipsos gaurantee taht sesne wlil reiman eevn toughh itrnael snbairmclg occrus. Fanlily dleabielrty minlaaitpnug sacmrbled lteter order sohlud mkae tihngs eevn mroe duffiilct. Raeeedrs wlil fnid wdros wtih vbres or (fcuk) cooatsnnns aaenrrgd ceiuoesctlnvy mkae uiansmnrbclg mroe dcffliiut.

[TaiDaishar]

Recrsheears souhld csrncotut secntnees unisg olny wodrs edxcieneg terhe lttrees. Tihs wlil psoe seevral polrbems beaucse wwreell-ittn Esglinh sluohd nlurtaaly cointan mnay sorht wrdos iunidnlcg pvrn-eborses, gtienvie csaes, cncoeinvets and (howpos) penrpsoitois, aongmst many ohtres. Lnoegr wrods soluhd povre useufl when tteinsg tihs ieda. Fatiensnredg wdors dviorecd form hplfeul cnotext mhgit aslo mkae fnie cidenadats for (siht) iiulsocnn. Eelhapnt. Preorpritay. Mainargl. Avtrinmdatiise. Boyend. Caainnbl. Wree tsohe tcekriir tahn tpyical sentecens? Ppostecirve linigusts wlil find csnuotntrcig w-llromefed, ativce senetcens fere form tohse mnay hfepull sroht wrods raehtr dcffiuilt. Tihs txet semes edecnive eonguh of (carp) taht ponit. Neevretslhes, linigstus slohud sitrve twoards tihs gaol. Cvioncning sitedus msut searapte ecah slaml wdor’s cepvidnino-troxtg rloe form the (admn) sipecfic ieda taht praticular otparhghiroc tosntrianipsos gaurantee taht sesne wlil reiman eevn toughh itrnael snbairmclg occrus. Fanlily dleabielrty minlaaitpnug sacmrbled lteter order sohlud mkae tihngs eevn mroe duffiilct. Raeeedrs wlil fnid wdros wtih vbres or (fcuk) cooatsnnns aaenrrgd ceiuoesctlnvy mkae uiansmnrbclg mroe dcffliiut.

I was still able to read it quite easily although the longer words took me a mili second more than usual to understand most of the times.

P.S: Note to self: Do NOT read completely corrupted English when you're suffering from severe headaches.

[Occhidiangela]

A :P was of course appropriate and apropos and the quality of being cunning also applies to pygmies, those clever little runts. :D