Help my computer not suck

[DeeBye]

I recently bought Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast (great game, having lots of fun with it, would recommend again A++++), and I'm a bit miffed at how badly my computer handles it at the higher resolution and texture settings. I get nice framerate at the lowest settings, but I kinda want to experience it with all of the eye candy cranked up. As it is, I get about 40-70 fps at the lowest resolution and all the eye candy turned down. When I bump the resolution up a notch to 800x600, my fps becomes nearly unplayable (10-30).

I know that I don't have a top-of-the-line machine, but I figured it would run JKII quite nicely. I guess I was wrong.

(FYI, JKII uses a heavily modded Quake 3 engine)


Here's my computer setup (mostly pulled from SiSoft Sandra):

Processor: AMD Athlon 1700+ XP @ 1.47GHz
L2 On-board Cache : 256kB ECC Synchronous Write-Back
Mainboard : ECS K7VMM+
System BIOS : American Megatrends Inc. 07.00T
Chipset : VIA Technologies Inc VT8375 ProSavageDDR PM266/KM266 CPU to PCI Bridge
Front Side Bus Speed : 2x 133MHz (266MHz data rate)
Adapter : S3 Graphics ProSavageDDR
Hard Disk : Maxtor 2F030J0 (30GB, 7200 rpm)
CD-ROM/DVD : PHILIPS CDRW2412A (52x24x48)
Total Memory : 480MB


If you haven't spotted it by now, I am using my motherboard's onboard graphics (the S3 ProSavage), which I suspect is the source of the problem. I have two sticks of 256MB PC2100 DDRAM installed (total 512MB), but my graphics chipset uses 32MB of this. Thus, 480MB total memory.

I also happen to have on older ATI Radeon 7000 32MB PCI card hanging out in my old computer. Would installing this be an upgrade over the onboard S3 ProSavageDDR?

If not, I think I need some advice. What graphics card would best suit my system? I'm not interested in the latest-and-greatest; I just want something that will run JKII with all of the eye candy cranked. Preferably something cheap. I'm willing to buy online, but the vendor has to be able to ship to Canada.

Thanks in advance.

[kandrathe]

You are limited by your 4X AGP slot. Your ATI Radeon PCI wouldn't be much better IMO (and might be worse due to it being PCI). You could step up to a Radeon 9000 thru 9200 with 64MB. I just spec'd one for a friends older home grown at newegg.com for ~$66.

[channel1]

Yup, what kandrathe said is pretty much it. You might be able to go a bit higher on the Radeon. Wholesale on the SAPPHIRE ATI RADEON 9200 128MB AGP8X (OEM) is Can$75, so you should be able to find it up there (London?) for around Can$100. The RADEON 9500 128MB DDR AGP8X TVO + DVI (OEM) is a big step up at Can$205.00. you could go totally loony with the RADEON 9800PRO 256MB DDR AGP8X TVO + DVI (OEM) at Can$608.00.

Something you can check without opening up the box is the BIOS setting that should be in Advanced->Chip Configuration, "Video Memory Cache Mode". Default will be UC (uncacheable), you will see an improvement if the on-board chipset supports the other option USWC (uncacheable, speculative write combining). If the chipset does NOT support that setting, you may need to do a hard BIOS reset to get the system to boot :S, make sure you know where the BIOS reset jumper is before you try it.

If you opt for the new ATI card, all of their current cards support USWC.

-rcv-

[TriggerHappy]

If i may be allowed to add my own question here on the same subject.

I could use some advice on upgrading my PC so that i can comfortably play Half Life 2 and Homeworld 2 when they come out.

I've fallen behind on the Video Card and CPU scene (when it comes to ATI cards i'm completely clueless. Radeons are all the same to me), since the last time i did any research was before buying my Geforce4 TI 4200 128mb version.


My current system:

CPU: AMD Athlon Thunderbird 1.3 ghz (the pre - XP version)

Video: Geforce4 TI 4200 128mb version

RAM: 256mb SDRAM

Mainboard: AOpen AK73

Hard Drives: Maxtor 40 gig 7200 rpm and Maxtor 60 gig 7200rpm.

CD-ROM: 32x10x40 CD Writer/Player.


I'm assuming my bottleneck is the CPU and RAM. The GF4 4200 can't be obsolete already?

I'd like to stick with AMD for the CPU, but i don't think my current mainboard supports one much higher than i have now. So it needs to be changed as well. I have little knowledge of what CPU/RAM/mainboards are currently on the market, nor what Video Card to upgrade to, if my current one isn't sufficient to play Half Life 2/Homeworld 2 comfortably.

My budget is $500 Canadian, $600 at the most.

Any advice for this poor canuck who's fallen hopelessly behind the technology curve?

[Walkiry]

Any advice for this poor canuck who's fallen hopelessly behind the technology curve?

My first advice: Wait!

Your thunderbird ought to hold its own for a bit, and 256 is really not that bad. That ti4200 is plenty for DirectX 8 games.

If I were to upgrade and stick with AMD, the nVidia nForce 2 motherboard is an excellent choice. Kingston memory is a good bang for your buck, and a newer CPU would be the biggest investment.

I've noticed you have two hard drives. Do you keep the program files in one and things like windows virtual memory, scratch files for photoshop and so on in the other?

[TriggerHappy]

Alright, but if Half Life 2 brings that CPU to it's knees i'll hold you responsible ;)

I heard about the nVidia nForce 2 chipset, but don't know what precisely makes it so good, or what i would need to take advantage of it's special features (whatever they are). Also, are there any affordable mainboards made with this chipset or is this an "enthusiast" item?

The first of my hard drives (40 gig) is for the OS (Windows 2000), programs and games. The other (60 gig) is storage for video and music files. The pagefile is on the 40 gig drive. Though it's often recommended, I haven't noticed any improvements in games from having the pagefile on a different physical drive.

Thanks for answering.

[kandrathe]

You are not that far behind. CPU and bus speeds made quantum leaps these past 2 years (I figure all the chip companies had this speedy stuff on the shelf, but the economic down turn made them push it all earlier than they would have normally).

Additional memory would be my only recommendation (if you can get it cheaply). If you currently have one 256 Mb, see if you can find another 256Mb, Crucial or Kingston for < ~$50. If you have 2x128Mb, then replace both with 256's. With Win2K and XP 512MB - 1GB Ram seems to remove most of the use of hard disk for virtual memory (pagefile.sys = the big speed killer). I just bought 3x256MB PC133 SDRAM for $40 per.

[kandrathe]

The RADEON 9500 128MB DDR AGP8X TVO + DVI (OEM) is a big step up at Can$205.00. you could go totally loony with the RADEON 9800PRO 256MB DDR AGP8X TVO + DVI (OEM) at Can$608.00.

Even if they were to operate in an 4x AGP slot, I think those higher end cards are really designed for 8x or 32x AGP slots.

[channel1]

The RADEON 9500 128MB DDR AGP8X TVO + DVI (OEM) is a big step up at Can$205.00. you could go totally loony with the RADEON 9800PRO 256MB DDR AGP8X TVO + DVI (OEM) at Can$608.00.
Even if they were to operate in an 4x AGP slot, I think those higher end cards are really designed for 8x or 32x AGP slots.

As far as I know, the ATI cards are still compatible with AGP 4x, in fact they should operate in any AGP except AGP Pro (an Intel spec that never caught on).

My mention of the 9800 Pro wasn't a serious recommendation. Just nice to see what a hundred bucks will get you in a year or so. :)

-rcv-

[pakman]

If you like to spend lots of money on video cards, go with an ATI Radeon 9800 pro. If you don'tlike to spend lots of money, go with an ATI Radeon 9200 pro for about $120 or thereabouts.

[DeeBye]

You might be able to go a bit higher on the Radeon. Wholesale on the SAPPHIRE ATI RADEON 9200 128MB AGP8X (OEM) is Can$75, so you should be able to find it up there (London?) for around Can$100.

Firstly, what is the difference between a "retail" version and a "OEM" version of various computer parts? This has always baffled me.

Secondly, is there any particular London-area shop you might suggest I check out? Ideally, I want to bring in my case, buy a new card, and have them install and test it on the spot. A reasonable dealer's warrantee would be nice too, just in case it craps out early (a couple of months would be grand). I'm not 100% committed to buying a new card, though. I'd like to browse around a bit, and try to convince my wife we really need one.

you could go totally loony with the RADEON 9800PRO 256MB DDR AGP8X TVO + DVI (OEM) at Can$608.00.

That's more than what I paid for my current computer :huh:

Something you can check without opening up the box is the BIOS setting that should be in Advanced->Chip Configuration, "Video Memory Cache Mode". Default will be UC (uncacheable), you will see an improvement if the on-board chipset supports the other option USWC (uncacheable, speculative write combining). If the chipset does NOT support that setting, you may need to do a hard BIOS reset to get the system to boot :S, make sure you know where the BIOS reset jumper is before you try it.

I tried this, and I couldn't find the setting. I found Advanced alright, but there was no Chip Configuration (I even checked my mainboard docs to be sure it wasn't under a different option).

<offtopic>
During this adventure, I noticed a BIOS option to "automagically set all settings for high performance" (paraphrased, obviously). I did just that, rebooted, and promptly lost mouse support. It took me awhile and many reboots to figure out that I had to enable "USB Legacy Support" for my optical Microsoft USB IntelliMouse Web to work. I should know better than to mess with unknown BIOS settings.
</offtopic>

I've decided that I will try to mess around with my current video card (can I call an onboard video card a "card"? or is it a video chipset?) to see if I can push a little more out of it.

The first order of business is to track down the latest video drivers. This has proven to be a daunting process. I don't fully trust Windows Update to supply me with the latest drivers.

I found the website for S3Graphics easily enough. I downloaded their little utility to determine the EXACT video card I have.

Chip name: ProSavageDDR (420, 430)

I then hit their download page to track down the correct driver. Since the utility told me I had a ProSavageDDR (420, 430) chip, I selected the ProSavageDDR (420) Drivers (there was no 430 option).

Now I'm confused. These seem to be the latest drivers (released June 3, 2003):

• Logo'd: ProSavageDDR WindowsXP/2K version 13.94.12 w/Util
  <>
  
• Logo'd: ProSavageDDR WindowsXP/2K version 13.94.12 Rotation
  <>
  
• Logo'd: ProSavageDDR WindowsXP/2K version 13.94.12 TVLargeFont<>
  [st]
  Did I track down the correct drivers? Which one of the above should I use? I've experienced the pleasure of updating onboard video drivers before (with my old Intel 810e), so I know a bit about it. But it still scares me to HELL. I don't want to be left with a blank screen in the middle of the process.
  
  I need for someone to reassure me that this is an easy process, and that I have nothing to worry about. Also, supply me with a step-by-step procedure manual so I don't mess up. It's like giving birth, I suppose. If it works, its a beautiful and glorious moment. If it doesn't work....
  
  -DeeBye

[channel1]

what is the difference between a "retail" version and a "OEM" version of various computer parts?

Retail comes in a pretty box. OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) parts come in a bag.

Actually, OEM usually comes in a case full of the component. Importers or distributors buy them by the case, and sell them individually to dealers who build their own 'puters. Mid-size and up 'puter makers will also buy by the case.

OEM doesn't just relate to 'puter parts, and it's nothing new. Car components have been available that way for decades. Remember the Bricklin and DeLorean? Mostly OEM parts. Same with those dune buggy kits that were popular in the 60s-70s

Most of the time, you won't care whether you have the retail or OEM version of a component. In the case of ATI, they DO include a nicer software package with the retail package. The software included with the OEM will be very basic, just the drivers and maybe something for DVD player, stuff like that. Extra cables if appropriate are usually included with the OEM, such as for connecting to a TV. You may or may not get some things, though, like an adapter to go from DVI (Digital Video Interface) to regular VGA. If the card ONLY has DVI, it will include the adapter. If it has both types of connector on the card, it probably WON'T come with that adapter (nice for hooking up to a second monitor). The Retail version of ATI tends to come with more adapters/cables than anyone will ever use.

You may see a quality difference between Retail and OEM. Retail will be manufactured by ATI, or manufactured for them to their specifications. OEM is often licensed by ATI, and whoever made them may use less expensive components, i.e. fans, circuit boards, etc.

That said, my failure rate has been virtually nil on OEM video cards over the last five years or so. If you DO have an OEM croak, it will probably be a royal PITA to get it replaced unless it is DOA.

That feeds into you second part. I seriously doubt that you'll find anyone handy in London to install it "while you wait". I used to do it, rather than have someone take a component home and screw up, then spend an hour on the phone talking them through a ten minute job. Either figure on leaving you 'puter at the store for a while, or do the installation yourself.

Re: UC/USWC- Award sells their BIOS to motherboard manufacturers, who often remove features that they don't want to use. I'm not surprised if they left out that setting on a board with integrated video, probably more trouble than it was worth.

Re: Driver update- NOT A CHANCE for that to be easy on the integrated motherboards. I recently spent half a day getting the right WinME drivers for an older PC-Chips integrated board. It is very likely that they never bothered to ever do updated drivers if the existing drivers work. Bugs will often get fixed, but don't expect anything to improve performance or to support newer operating systems or environments (DX9).

-rcv-

[Walkiry]

I heard about the nVidia nForce 2 chipset, but don't know what precisely makes it so good, or what i would need to take advantage of it's special features (whatever they are).&nbsp; Also, are there any affordable mainboards made with this chipset or is this an "enthusiast" item?

There are several things that make this a good board. Good support for pehripherals (if you've had a not so good board and use USB components you'll know what I'm talking about), a wide range of configuration options, dual DDR support (to increase memory bandwidth), excellent integrated controllers (IDE, Serial ATA, Ethernet, you name it). The overall stability of the board is the best selling point.

You can go for a board with all the fruit (will set you back 125-150 bucks) or simpler versions that don't have as many integrated peripherals like the Asus A7N8X-X for example. It'll be slightly more expensive than an equivalent board with a VIA chipset, but the difference is small and well worth it. You'll hardly need anything too special for using this chipset (it's sometimes recommended that you get twin memory chip pairs for the dual DDR channel, but unless you're one of those enthusiasts you were referring to, it'll hardly be worth it).

Also:

Though it's often recommended, I haven't noticed any improvements in games from having the pagefile on a different physical drive.

That could also be because of how you have your drives partitioned. I have two 120 7200 rpm drives, the OS partitions are the very first of one of the drives (so that they're closer to the outside of the physical platter) and the swap file is also in the very first partition of the other drive, and there's some performance increase (not much, but worth it too).

[TriggerHappy]

Thanks for the info on nForce 2.

Do nForce 2 mainboards support more than two hard drives, or would i need to get a seperate IDE controller for any extra hard drives? Or would this depend on the actual mainboard itself?

What kind of memory would be best for taking advantage of the dual DDR channel? How much more would it cost or is it just a matter of having, for example, two 256mb chips instead of one 512mb chip?

Since i don't see myself being able to afford better than an Athlon XP 2800+ CPU, i'd like to get all the advantages i can get, as long as it's cost effective.


I have my HDs partitioned in a similar way. My 40 gig drive has three partitions, C: is the system with the page file on it, D: is for programs and E: is for games. The other drive is storage.
Looks like you're right on the money why i don't notice any improvements from having the swap file on the other drive/partition.

Thanks again for the advice.


P.S.
If i were to upgrade my video card in the very near future, what would be a cost effective card that would offer a significant improvement over my GF4 4200?

[Raziel]

Chipset : VIA Technologies Inc VT8375 ProSavageDDR

If you haven't spotted it by now, I am using my motherboard's onboard graphics (the S3 ProSavage), which I suspect is the source of the problem.

I also happen to have on older ATI Radeon 7000 32MB PCI card hanging out in my old computer.  Would installing this be an upgrade over the onboard S3 ProSavageDDR?

Answer to your question:

1) Yes
2) Yes

Look up the ProSavageDDR chipset. It's 3d performance is UTTERLY HORRIBLE. I'm surprised it was even playable on your pc. Just about anything would be an update over that POS. Example:

http://www.digit-life.com/articles/i845gp4...66sis650intvga/

The boards using your ProSavageDDR chipset are the two VIA boards (the KM266 and the P4M266). No ECS board is listed, but go and look at the "3d performace, game tests" graphs - starts about halfway down that page. Go a bit further and look at the Quake 3 performance.

Wait i'll reproduce the Quake 3 graph for you, because JK2 is a Q3 engine game:

QUAKE III DEMO FOUR (800x600x16) - all numbers are fps

i845G: 75
GF2 MX200: 100
GF2 MX400: 166
SiS 650: 66
VIA P4M266: 39 (this is your chipset)
nForce 420: 134 (this, incidentally, is my mobo)
VIA KM266: 37 (this is another instance of your chipset)

[By the way, if you turn the res up to 1024x768, the ProSavage chipset's fps drop below 20!!]

As you can see the ProSavageDDR chipset gets shat on by just about everyone. It's performance is particularly bad - you said yourself you get between 40 and 70 fps in JK2 with all the detail runed right down (and i'm guessing it approaches 70 in the simple areas of low polys).

Go look into the price of any cheap AGP 3d card. A GeForce 2 MX-anything or a GeForce4 MX-anything would be a *HUGE* improvement. Hell, an "old" GeForce 2 GTS, bought second hand, would rip apart what you have now. Shop around, compare prices of basic 3d cards, and get yourself a good deal - because you really don't need a hell of a lot of grunt to replace the godawful chipset you have now. Updating your drives aren't going to fix this - it's like beating a dead horse, there's nothing there and it doesn't matter how much you flog it it's not gonna get up and run. Buy a new horse (even a mule will do).

You have no problem with ram, IO or anything that I could see (but I didn't look really hard). Your "video card", dare I call it that, is what's causing the problem. My wife has a board with the same chipset on it, but since we pretty much only play Diablo 2, i'm living with the card - but even in Diablo 2 I can see the horrible performance. I had to disable perspective and turn the lighting down to low. Just awful.

[Walkiry]

Do nForce 2 mainboards support more than two hard drives, or would i need to get a seperate IDE controller for any extra hard drives? Or would this depend on the actual mainboard itself?

All nForce boards (well, pretty much every board nowadays) come with a standard IDE controller that supports up to 4 drives (2 channels, master + slave). Given that one will be taken by a CD/DVD unit, it'll support 3 drives nicely. Some of them come with also a Serial ATA controller with RAID support, that can take more drives (but these will have to be S-ATA or you'll need an adapter).

What kind of memory would be best for taking advantage of the dual DDR channel? How much more would it cost or is it just a matter of having, for example, two 256mb chips instead of one 512mb chip?

As I said, some manufacturers sell paired memory modules that have been tested to play nice with the dual channel feature and charge a bit more. But I have a friend who just slapped his regular DDR memory modules in and it all worked out flawlessly. I'll add my own experience since I've ordered one of these too for myself (after a most unfortunate incident involving a badly wired power supply and some burnt connectors). Just buy normal DDR modules. I'll tell you by next week when I put my new MOBO in place :D

2x256 Mb is OK, most boards come with 3 memory slots so if you need more you can always add a third DDR module. 2x256 should also come a bit cheaper too ;)

If i were to upgrade my video card in the very near future, what would be a cost effective card that would offer a significant improvement over my GF4 4200?

As it's been pointed out in the thread, a mid-range ATI card is probably the best value right now. Don't go around spending your hard earned cash for the top of the line DirectX 9 cards that will be just OK by the time DX9 is standard in games instead of just a gizmo for some highly advertised ones. That ti4200 should have plenty of room for overclocking (you should be able to get 4400 performance with no problem), those GF4s are excellent cards.

[TriggerHappy]

Understood.

I prefer not to overclock if i can help it, so i'll just stick with my video card until it becomes the bottleneck. Will only upgrade the mainboard, RAM and CPU for now.

Thanks muchly.

[Erigion]

One quick comment, Half Life 2 will be a DirectX9 game so if you want all of the fancy looking stuff in it you're going to need a DX9 compatible card, ie a Radeon 9500 and up or a Geforce FX 5200 and up.