New details on cataclysm stat changes

[Frag]

Cap is 85, so it would be 88, 89, 90 by that idea. The problem is, without using zone wide buffs/debuffs, the amount of hit you need is going to be exponential. It doesn't go from 8-9-10% for each level.

But it might:

though the details -- such as how much Hit Rating you might need to effectively combat high-level creatures (...) -- are likely to change.

For what it's worth, I don't know what causes you to do it, but I *love* the crocodile tears everytime they talk about changing something that affects your noobadin.

~Frag:wub:

[Klaus]

I actually took the comment about "steeper ratings" to mean that they wanted it to be really hard to reach hitcap (for example). Today, if I'm not at hitcap, I adjust my gearset so I am. If there was less +hit available on gear overall, I would be forced to actually choose between being hitcapped or getting more of another stat. Today, extra +hit is wasted - if there was no such thing as "extra" +hit, it might be more interesting.

[Klaus]

The most interesting thing, I think, will be how Blizzard balances PvP around this. The way it seems things are currently balanced is that ranged attackers have less health but they can start attacking earlier (plus they have snares and such though melee have snare breakers, for the most part). Does this mean ranged DPS classes are going to have to deal less damage to make up for them being able to get the jump on melee combatants? Similarly, they are boosting the armor on cloth and such, so it sounds like cloth casters are going to get a double bump in survivability, so how is that going to play out?

Well, my experience so far is that as soon as I'm in range to start casting against a melee, they're in range to charge / death grip / repentance / whatever, so most of the time I don't even get to finish my first cast before I'm stunned and getting beaten on. So, I don't see the problem. :)

[shoju]

But it might:

For what it's worth, I don't know what causes you to do it, but I *love* the crocodile tears everytime they talk about changing something that affects your noobadin.

~Frag:wub:

There are no crocodile tears, just my dislike for the changes. My Wow 'filter' is predominantly Paladin colored, as it is my main (and if I could stomach leveling another paladin, I would have no other types of alts. I love my mage, hunter, and DK, and while they are fun, they pale in comparison to Sunetra. Only the DK really compares in shear fun to play. (and it still isn't close)

A list of things I'm not super excited about:

-no Defense on gear: You will be crit immune by using def stance, frost pres, Dire Bear, or RF. I see why I guess. Eventually later in each expac, tanks start looking for tank gear with less def, and more other stats. They also want arms/fury/ret/dps dk's/cat druids to be able to tank 5 mans. The problem is, There are plenty of DPS'ers that I certainly don't want to pretend to be a tank and run a dungeon. It solves the tank shortage, but the cost to me looks like you will be able to be successful with 'poorer' tank play over all.

-Parry is now 50% off the next two attacks: is this supposed to make me care about parry? it doesn't. It is still going to be worse than dodge, people still aren't going to go looking for it.

-Block is now static 30%: Something needed to be done about block. 30% guaranteed reduction? That sounds cool.... I guess. Say goodbye to shield block and Holy Shield in their current forms.

-Changing the mitigation difference among armor types so that plate doesn't offer so much more protection than mail, leather and cloth. I guess I don't see why this needs to be done in PVE. I guess in PvP it will matter, but really, I lost interest in PvP after S3. PvP is the one aspect of the game that is just not fun for me. They want armor classes to be different and important, and they want you to wear 'your' armor class, but then they make a change like this. I see this as very counterintuitive to the process.

Things I'm pretty excited about:

-Spell Ranks are gone: They say that there will be some new spells to learn along the way. Thank freaking god. Maybe they can do something to give paladins something to do besides Judge their way to 60.

-Weapon Skill up grind fests are gone: From the RPG portion of this game, this was the one stat that was just.... bad.

-Armor Penetration on gear is gone: This is a good step. I think that they should get rid of Block Rating on gear in the same fashion as well. Arp is bad for certain classes, but they can't seem to get away from it because blizzard wanted to put it on everything in big slobbery doses. Now, if they would just realize that Block Rating is really only useful on tier gear for 2 classes, we would be getting somewhere.

-Gem colors. They have said that some gem types will be changing colors. That will be a very nice addition, and might make gemming a little more important than: Get your meta active and stack a color. All three specs of paladin have this.
Holy: Activate meta and stack INT (holy Light) or spellpower (Flash of Light)
Prot: Activate meta and stack stam until you are blue in the face. Ardent Defender says you must.
Ret: Activate meta and stack str UNLESS you have 2t9, then you can look at your yellow sockets.
I'm sure that other classes have similar strategies. I know my mage has a 'level' of socket bonus that needs to be present before you bother, and I'm learning that hunters have the same thing.

-Reforging. Yes please. This just seems like a very cool way to customize gear

Yes, its early and these aren't all the changes, Yes, I have been irritated by many of the changes that they have made to paladins, and they have turned out 'ok'. I just don't like getting part of the info, and then having to wait to make sense of it.

[Frag]

....

The things you're not excited about are the things I'm excited about. Defense has been a red herring for a long time now and part of the overall 'anti-upgrade' situation that has existed. Oh, that would be an upgrade but there's less defense on it! more hit on it! not enough expertise on it! I'll take it for when I can make it work... It's not really 'fun' per se, and makes for some very counterintuitive gear selections. Parry is now useful for mitigation purposes and not just another avoidance stat that's the crappy step-son of Dodge. Block is being moved to something that's viable to search out and use instead of a waste of itemization (even 102.5% shield tanks don't use block exactly, they use Defense). Your complaints about Block % being only on tier gear is a little flat given how few off-set pieces have it at the moment, and I doubt you'll see that trend change. I'll take the charge of being overly optimistic about this, but perhaps.. perhaps we'll be able to build a tank they way we want now and all be reasonably effective. That's a big hope, and if any other MMO I've played is an indication, it won't work. Just saying it would be nice if a Parry Tank, a Block Tank and a Dodge Tank could all be viable and better at certain encounter styles.

On the armor issue, you're again looking at the worst possible outcome and not what was said. They said they'd narrow the gap, not that everyone would be at the same amount, or even close amounts. Currently the amount of armor difference between even Mail and Plate is nothing short of gigantic, while cloth might as well not have armor on it. Flattening the bell curve will mostly benefit PvP, but also should help out Klaus when he pulls aggro too.;)

Yes, I have been irritated by many of the changes that they have made to paladins, and they have turned out 'ok'

Which is why I find your reactions when we don't have all the info so crocodiley.

Cheers,
~Frag B)

[Mavfin]

Which is why I find your reactions when we don't have all the info so crocodiley.

Cheers,
~Frag B)

Agreed. I called this 'pre-whining' some time ago for a reason. Why make sweeping conclusions that the sky is falling when you only have a peek at the tip of the iceberg?

I'm interested in the changes, too. Getting away from 2 and 3-shot tanking except as a special fight element (ala Festergut) makes me a happy tank. Getting away from spamspamspam or the tank dies makes me a happy healer. Having to think a little makes me happier.

I also agree on the defense and other changes. I think lots of people are confusing 'challenge' with 'tedium'. Blizzard's trying to remove some tedium from the process, imo. For them as well as us.

Also, while we're talking about changes, the QQ is huge about the 5% health/damage/healing buff starting in Icecrown this week. I submit that it's just another way of doing what they've always done: nerfing instances after the bleeding-edge clears them. However, the players can't take nerfs back, but, you can shut off the buff with the faction leader if you want to do the encounter 'pre-nerf', or you can accept that your group needs a little help to finish seeing the content. Choices are good.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I think lots of people are confusing 'challenge' with 'tedium'.

I think it might be more a difference of opinion rather than confusion. Perhaps one player's 'tedium' *is* another player's 'challenge'. Some of it has to do with which part of 'MMORPG' one focuses on. For instance, narrowing the armor value might be good for the 'G' part, but is really a poor choice for the 'RP' part. After all, just how effective should a silk robe be at stopping arrows and swords? The much maligned weapon proficiency is another example. Yeah, for the 'G' aspect, it is nice to be able to pick up any weapon that comes along and use it like an expert. But for the 'RP' aspect, that is nonsense -- proficiency comes from practice.

The old school RPers among us have been waiting for a computer based role playing game for thirty five years. Some have come close, some have missed the mark by a large margin. WoW has always been one of the latter. That's not to say it is bad, since Blizzard really wasn't out to make a real RPG anyway. Even from my limited perspective, WoW is fun, it keeps me happy for hours each day. But I can't help regretting every step WoW takes away from RP and toward 'kill for the loot to make the next kill possible'. That grind may be someone's 'challenge', but it is my 'tedium'. I'd rather be dressed in sandals, shorts, and hat leveling my fishing.:)

--Pete

[shoju]

The things you're not excited about are the things I'm excited about. Defense has been a red herring for a long time now and part of the overall 'anti-upgrade' situation that has existed. Oh, that would be an upgrade but there's less defense on it! more hit on it! not enough expertise on it! I'll take it for when I can make it work... It's not really 'fun' per se, and makes for some very counterintuitive gear selections.

I would love to have that kind of decision to make about tank gear. For a paladin, it is basically

over 540?
More Stam?
(pre-ICC) does it put me closer to 102?
More Armor?

With the stupid glyph of Corruption, Expertise is a moot point for me (Right now, I have 30 Expertise on trash, and 40 on a boss.), and if I REALLY need the hit, I have pieces I can put on. Even on a tank swap fight like DBS, I have 3 ways to get him back from you. HoR, RD, and if both of those fail, I will just BoP you. If I'm not dumb and switch to SoCorr (I have tanked Marrowgar a couple of times with SoComm /bonk) I have yet to have a threat problem. If I'm on the off tank, I will make sure I'm second on threat, If I'm the MT, I will pop wings, run in, and smack it around a bit, and threat is never a problem.

Parry is now useful for mitigation purposes and not just another avoidance stat that's the crappy step-son of Dodge.

I guess. It is guaranteed to mitigate 50% of a single hit, and as long as I don't dodge the next hit, 50% off of that one. In ICC settings, this works.

Block is being moved to something that's viable to search out and use instead of a waste of itemization (even 102.5% shield tanks don't use block exactly, they use Defense). Your complaints about Block % being only on tier gear is a little flat given how few off-set pieces have it at the moment, and I doubt you'll see that trend change. I'll take the charge of being overly optimistic about this, but perhaps.. perhaps we'll be able to build a tank they way we want now and all be reasonably effective. That's a big hope, and if any other MMO I've played is an indication, it won't work. Just saying it would be nice if a Parry Tank, a Block Tank and a Dodge Tank could all be viable and better at certain encounter styles.

I agree, Block is being made into something worthwhile. There are 42 non tier/shield items that have block rating / value on them. I'm not sure of the percentage over all that is, but I will concede that it is probably a small number.

I just don't see a parry or block tank holding up to a dodge tank. Again, I will concede the point if I'm wrong.

On the armor issue, you're again looking at the worst possible outcome and not what was said. They said they'd narrow the gap, not that everyone would be at the same amount, or even close amounts. Currently the amount of armor difference between even Mail and Plate is nothing short of gigantic, while cloth might as well not have armor on it. Flattening the bell curve will mostly benefit PvP, but also should help out Klaus when he pulls aggro too.;)

I read another post, and I see what they are saying, and will concede that what they are planning to do is going to work. The wording is poor. Upping cloth armor 200%(what GC said in another post) is not the same as the wording in the original post.

Which is why I find your reactions when we don't have all the info so crocodiley.

I said 'ok' not that they worked out right, or that I'm happy with the changes anymore than I was. If it were up to me, Ardent Defender would cease to exist, Seal of Command would get yet another overhaul, and Lay on Hands would get changed so that it is useful to all three specs in a PVE setting, and ditch forebearance.

Agreed. I called this 'pre-whining' some time ago for a reason. Why make sweeping conclusions that the sky is falling when you only have a peek at the tip of the iceberg?

I'm not whining. I posted a list of things I like, and things I didn't like based on the information made available to me.

I'm interested in the changes, too. Getting away from 2 and 3-shot tanking except as a special fight element (ala Festergut) makes me a happy tank. Getting away from spamspamspam or the tank dies makes me a happy healer. Having to think a little makes me happier.

Those aspects are very nice. I'm not saying that they are not.

I also agree on the defense and other changes. I think lots of people are confusing 'challenge' with 'tedium'. Blizzard's trying to remove some tedium from the process, imo. For them as well as us.

I like that some of the tedium is being removed. I would also like some tedium added to my chosen class. They are saying it is coming, but as a paladin, I will believe it when I see it.

3.0 to now has been a series of stealth-nerfs, forgot to get it posted before we nerfed it, major overhauls, this works, now it doesn't, here let us give you the biggest EH talent in the game and instead of fixing it so that it isn't so imbalanced, we will try and work and nerf around it, We will give Ret more depth meaning that we will make ret watch their action bar even more so that they can play whack a mole even more, We want Holy to be able to be more than a tank healer but fail to deliver pain in the rear. Yes paladins are bigger and better than we ever have been in history of the game, but man.... I would love to just be balanced and not the beacon of either hatred or jokes.

Also, while we're talking about changes, the QQ is huge about the 5% health/damage/healing buff starting in Icecrown this week. I submit that it's just another way of doing what they've always done: nerfing instances after the bleeding-edge clears them. However, the players can't take nerfs back, but, you can shut off the buff with the faction leader if you want to do the encounter 'pre-nerf', or you can accept that your group needs a little help to finish seeing the content. Choices are good.

The debate will be on now about whether or not they planned LK25Heroic to be doable pre-zone buffs. I don't care. I hope that it speeds us up, gives us the edge we need in fights, and gets us through the zone faster.


And with that, I think that I will /bow out of this thread.

[Frag]

I just don't see a parry or block tank holding up to a dodge tank. Again, I will concede the point if I'm wrong.

Well, it depends on how they do it, and as I said I'm not certain they can (or are trying, as much as it seems like they are) achieve it.

In a false environment where you could choose your stat to have maxed and have nothing of the others you could 'balance' things like this:

30% chance to dodge 100% dmg = ~70% taken over a long enough time period
100% chance to block 30% of incoming dmg = ~70% exactly taken
50% chance to parry for 50% of the next two hits (or 50%, 50%, 100%, etc...) = ~66.7% dmg taken over a long enough time period*

If things were balanced kinda like that, dodge would actually be the worst of the three in practice, because healing doesn't stop even when you stop taking damage and over a short period the avoidance stats are streaky.

That really didn't prove anything other than I can construct a debate to win. However what I hope it does is illustrate the idea I'm hoping they head for. Given that all tanks will have at least two of those three stats (assuming they do what they're supposed to do for bears), as well as any miss% we end up with, it'll be extremely complex to come up with a system that wouldn't result in a best setup and in all likelihood that is what will happen, but these changes very well could be the basis for a new tank paradigm.

As for the thread, you certainly bring some good points up and it'll be a loss to have you withdraw, all I believe we're asking is to keep the doom song in our heads.:D

Cheers,
~Frag B)

*I realize I made a couple gross oversimplifications on parry, just trying to illustrate a point.

[Mavfin]

As for the thread, you certainly bring some good points up and it'll be a loss to have you withdraw, all I believe we're asking is to keep the doom song in our heads.:D

Cheers,
~Frag B)

Agreed. I've been reading tons of QQ all morning, so maybe I reacted a bit more harshly than Shoju might have expected. It happens. I remember the pre-LK stuff like this, too.

Keep in mind that there's tons of variables to this that we haven't seen yet, so there's a lot of different ways this could come out. I don't automatically think the worst. I'll just wait and see.

[Shamago]

(assuming they do what they're supposed to do for bears)

I've seen a post or two implying that bears will not receive block or parry ability, and in fact may go back to being the top HP/armor tanks. I am hoping that they'll at least make parry rating/block rating on misc slots useful to us in some way. WTB talent "Your armor is increased by XXX% of your block rating + parry rating"

[Mavfin]

I've seen a post or two implying that bears will not receive block or parry ability, and in fact may go back to being the top HP/armor tanks. I am hoping that they'll at least make parry rating/block rating on misc slots useful to us in some way. WTB talent "Your armor is increased by XXX% of your block rating + parry rating"

Keep Savage Defense and make it block 30%?

Then you have 2 dodge/parry/block tanks with differing mechanics, and 2 'high armor' tanks, one with dodge/parry, and one with dodge/block.

I'm sure we'll find out what the plan is when they tell us.:D

[Kevin]

I guess. It is guaranteed to mitigate 50% of a single hit, and as long as I don't dodge the next hit, 50% off of that one. In ICC settings, this works.
I agree, Block is being made into something worthwhile. There are 42 non tier/shield items that have block rating / value on them. I'm not sure of the percentage over all that is, but I will concede that it is probably a small number.

I just don't see a parry or block tank holding up to a dodge tank. Again, I will concede the point if I'm wrong.

The implementation on this makes a big difference.

There is your way where you parry and reduce damage taken by 50% and you have a buff that goes away on the next attack regardless of what happens. So a dodge eats this and the next parry is worthless. Or perhaps you block and reduce it by 80%. Or perhaps you block and only reduce by 30%.

You could do it like a parry pops a buff that lasts for Xs and the next hit is mitigated by 50%, so if you hit a long avoidance string you still don't lose the effect of the parry. If you parry again the timer resets. Or the timer resets and you add a charge. I doubt they will leave it as an untimed buff, or if they do they won't add charges to it. We don't need the old reckoning bombs in reverse. :) And it might not be a displayed buff, could just be an internal thing.

But parry can be set up so that in the long run it reduces just as much damage averaged out.

I prefer to think they are working under a model that won't waste a parry "charge". I use charge for lack of a better term at the moment.

[Frag]

(assuming they do what they're supposed to do for bears)

Ok, whatever I thought I read is trumped by what was posted today on this matter:

If druids have lower avoidance (assuming you call the new parry and block avoidance), then they'll have higher armor and health to compensate. There is no reason druids must have block and parry to be competitive. They really haven't missed it much in WotLK.

So, mea culpa.

~Frag:blush:

[Pantalaimon]

I actually took the comment about "steeper ratings" to mean that they wanted it to be really hard to reach hitcap (for example). Today, if I'm not at hitcap, I adjust my gearset so I am. If there was less +hit available on gear overall, I would be forced to actually choose between being hitcapped or getting more of another stat. Today, extra +hit is wasted - if there was no such thing as "extra" +hit, it might be more interesting.

That was my first thought as well, and if true I agree with Blizzard's intention here. It will definitely be interesting if the "best" theorycraft build/gearing is significantly more difficult to play than a "runner-up" build that reaches hitcap - not in terms of number of buttons, that's silly, but adjusting-on-the-fly to misses. It definitely has the potential to separate the exceptional from the mediocre.

[Sir_Die_alot]

That was my first thought as well, and if true I agree with Blizzard's intention here. It will definitely be interesting if the "best" theorycraft build/gearing is significantly more difficult to play than a "runner-up" build that reaches hitcap - not in terms of number of buttons, that's silly, but adjusting-on-the-fly to misses. It definitely has the potential to separate the exceptional from the mediocre.

I don't see on the fly misses on the horizon unless reforging won't reach points where it caps you. If reforging lets people boost "essential" stats like this then people are just going to boost those.

[Taelas]

Keep in mind that reforging essentially makes the item worth less for its ilevel. You only get 50% of the item's original stat for your new stat.

Personally I don't see the point in this new Parry. If Parrying then Dodging wastes your "second hit half-off" thing, then it's worse than the current implementation, and if it doesn't... how is it different? 50% off on attack X and 50% off on attack Y amounts to more or less the same thing as avoiding attack X entirely. Is it just to have a different way of doing the same thing?

I also think that if they make the ratings curve so much steeper, why would we bother gathering it in the first place? It's not as if 5% misses is really that big a deal in the first place.

[Klaus]

It's not as if 5% misses is really that big a deal in the first place.

5% misses can be a big deal for casters. With the way the itemization is today (and has been for a while), most caster classes benefit more from making it to hitcap than they do by stacking just about anything else. In other words, if you're below cap, +hit is worth more to casters than any other stat. If the available amounts of +hit vs. other stats were different, the best possible gearset might not be hitcapped, which would be a more interesting decision to make and a more interesting way to play. Today, I don't have to worry about adjusting my rotation for misses (mostly - sometimes my very first cast can miss, since it doesn't get Misery until it hits).

[Taelas]

Granted, it's a much bigger deal for casters than it is for melee.

[Jester]

Personally I don't see the point in this new Parry. If Parrying then Dodging wastes your "second hit half-off" thing, then it's worse than the current implementation, and if it doesn't... how is it different? 50% off on attack X and 50% off on attack Y amounts to more or less the same thing as avoiding attack X entirely. Is it just to have a different way of doing the same thing?

No. At the same odds of parrying vs. dodging, parry would reduce variance much, much more than dodge. You'd get hit for smaller increments, which would make you easier to heal. Parry would simply be better.

-Jester