It`s that time once again!

[Nomad25055]

Greetings!

What with my current pc aging rapidly (6+ years old, socket A, AGP) and Windows 7 around the corner the time has come once more. My budget for this build is 2500 usd, but it isn`t set in stone heh. I have a good idea what I want in this new machine, but I have yet to decide on a Motherboard. This is where you guys come in. I want to build a Phenom II x4 based system (965 BE 140w) with the fx 790 chipset, and at least four slots for ddr3 1600 (dual channel of course). Onboard video is not needed or wanted, however onboard audio is fine. This system will need at least three PCI-e slots (two must be x16 hence the chipset). Of course four USB 2.0, four SATA, and any e-SATA options would be nice. While they are not needed, any PCI slots would be a bonus as would any IDE connectivity as I still have some decent old hardware. I looked at the ASUS M4A79, but I have heard bad things about these boards. Any help will be appreciated.

-Nomad

[Den]

Greetings!

Hey Nomad,
I used to build all my PCs but finally realized that it's not worth it, I always spent too much for technology that's obsolete too soon. My latest PC is an HP, just a couple of upgrades and it's worked great for 2 years plus. Having said all that, this board looks pretty neat-o!

Tiger Direct

Oh P.S.
Most of the manufacturers are offering a Free Upgrade to Windows 7 if you buy a PC now that comes with XP or Vista.

[Nomad25055]

Greetings.

Thanks but no thanks. It may be a decent board but I need a socket AM3 board with ddr3 1600 support (non OC). My CPU is going to be an AMD Phenom II x4 965 Deneb Black Edition 3.4Ghz 140w. And buying a PC from a manufacturer tends to be over priced for what you can actually get. Not to mention who knows what proprietary stuff they may use, let alone any unwanted software you get may stuck with. I am a DIY man when it comes to PC`s.

Nomad

[Concillian]

This year's round of video cards is due out soon. ATi is announcing September 8th I think, with sales starting towards the end of the month. nVidia is rumored to be well behind.

Top end Single GPU performance is rumored to be on a par with a 4870x2. Even if the rumors are exaggerated and single GPU is slightly lower than 4870x2, with the potential for a single slot crossfire, I see very, very little reason to worry about multiple x16 slots. 2560x gaming is about the only thing that would require more than a single slot solution, and even then I think performance would be adequate for most with a single slot x2 style design.

As mentioned, paying extra for technology you won't use right now, is usally paying extra for technology you won't use period. I'm not a big fan of so called "futureproofing" features, they usually don't really pan out. You really limit your choices by restricting yourself to dual x16 slot boards. P55 and i5 is also right around the corner, but from the sounds of things, Intel is mostly going to replace their "consumer level" i7 chips with i5s and not lower prices a ton. These days I don't see a TON of difference in CPU either, yours is a decent choice, but just keep in mind that Core i5s will launch near the same time as Win7 too.

[Lissa]

This year's round of video cards is due out soon. ATi is announcing September 8th I think, with sales starting towards the end of the month. nVidia is rumored to be well behind.

Top end Single GPU performance is rumored to be on a par with a 4870x2. Even if the rumors are exaggerated and single GPU is slightly lower than 4870x2, with the potential for a single slot crossfire, I see very, very little reason to worry about multiple x16 slots. 2560x gaming is about the only thing that would require more than a single slot solution, and even then I think performance would be adequate for most with a single slot x2 style design.

As mentioned, paying extra for technology you won't use right now, is usally paying extra for technology you won't use period. I'm not a big fan of so called "futureproofing" features, they usually don't really pan out. You really limit your choices by restricting yourself to dual x16 slot boards. P55 and i5 is also right around the corner, but from the sounds of things, Intel is mostly going to replace their "consumer level" i7 chips with i5s and not lower prices a ton. These days I don't see a TON of difference in CPU either, yours is a decent choice, but just keep in mind that Core i5s will launch near the same time as Win7 too.

There is an advantage for trying to get as close to the bleeding edge as possible, that being you don't have to bother with upgrading for 3 to 4 years in everything, but possibly the video cards. So IMO, it's worth spending extra money on all the non-video card components as they'll still be powerful for several years down the line. As to video cards though, you're pretty much spot on. Being a generation or two behind means you can still have good graphics for a couple years before you jump to beinga generation or two behind again.

[--Pete]

Hi,

There is an advantage for trying to get as close to the bleeding edge as possible, . . .

That is very true. However, there is another way to look at it. Stuff that's about one generation (say 6 months) behind the leading edge will typically run you about 1/2 as much. Now consider, most games are designed for (and on) the machines available when the coding started. So the games designed around today's bleeding edge components will not hit the market for two or more years. During that time, you'll be playing games that were designed on systems older than your one generation back system. Instead of spending $2500 bucks every five years, and having a system that's too far ahead of the curve at the start and too far behind the curve at the end, you can spend $1300 every couple of years and stay right in the zone pretty much all the time.

Even if money is no object and you can afford to build a $2500 machine every two years, there's another reason to avoid bleeding edge. Often the hardware will have some 'teething' problems. A "Rev. B" board wasn't changed just for the fun of it. And drivers seem invariably to take about six months to settle down. So, unless you get as much of a kick playing with your computer as you do playing on it, I think slightly more mature components are a better choice. YMMV. B)

--Pete

[Taem]

There is an advantage for trying to get as close to the bleeding edge as possible, that being you don't have to bother with upgrading for 3 to 4 years in everything, but possibly the video cards. So IMO, it's worth spending extra money on all the non-video card components as they'll still be powerful for several years down the line. As to video cards though, you're pretty much spot on. Being a generation or two behind means you can still have good graphics for a couple years before you jump to beinga generation or two behind again.

I have built my last 3-computer from the ground up and have never spent less than $2,500-USD, and always regurgitated previous items, such as mouse, keyboard, dvd r/rw+/- rom drives, data cable usb 2.0 ports (if motherboard does not already have them), internal fans, software, speakers, all-in-one printers, internal power supply, RAM (when compatible) and even the tower itself at times. And I never even come close to getting 100% of the power I desire - it's mostly around 75% with that extra 25% costing a further $1,500 to $2,500.

Now I will tell you Nomad25055 that the honest to god truth is that if you purchase a pre-built machine from a Fry's or similar electronics discount store, they usually come bundled with relatively good features and software. If you find the motherboard you desire bundled already, then you only need to upgrade the ram (assuming you want more than what already comes bundled - new egg has great deals), cpu (if necessary), and the video card. Altogether, it might cost you between 2-3K for the whole system including the additional components you add/upgrade, but you will KNOW it will work 100% perfect the first time (a BYO system almost ALWAYS needs tweaking), and will save a LOT of money in the long run... trust me. Pre-builts have special deals with all the venders of the parts they use getting a better deal than you could purchasing every single piece solo. It's like upgrading parts of a sports car as opposed to building one from the ground up.

After seeing my wife's computer on sale at Fry's with a more powerful system than my BYO system less than 5-years later for $350.... well I was quite put out at the money I threw away. First we tried to configure her costs for a BYO of similar quality to mine, but ran up to around a $800-1k range, and here is a pre-built with almost identical set up for $350... all it needed was some more RAM. Such a shame I didn't know many years ago what I know now.

And why do you want 4-SATA drives? For a RAID-10? Just get two for a simple RAID configuration - the RAID-10 won't increase boot times like you'd think it would... trust me.

[Nomad25055]

Greetings!

As for having four SATA drives, I don`t need that many, two would suffice. On the topic of video cards, how does two EVGA Nvidia GTX 295 FTW editions grab you? As for RAM, four 2gb sticks of OCZ Gold AMD Edition ddr3 1600 will be going in this beast. All will be bundled with pre-existing hardware in a Raidmax Smilodon. I will be getting a good deal from a guy I know, so this $3000+ machine will only cost me about $2700. He runs a computer upgrade/LAN center type business. I will be using this machine to establish credit for myself via a loan from my bank (Regions). The smallest loan they will give is $3000, so why not built a PC to drool over?

Nomad

[LavCat]

I have an M4A79T Deluxe with a 720BE, and have been very pleased with them. I don't know if you really meant the older M4A79 or if you were intending the M4A79T. What bad things have you heard? The only two negative things I can think of with the M4A79T are that the floppy connector is mounted in a bad spot, and that with almost any good CPU cooler the first two memory slots are blocked (I'm using a Zalman 9700). If you need all four slots be very careful in your cooler selection. I don't use USB and I don't use SATA (except for a couple of optical drives), so I cannot speak for USB and SATA performance.

If I were putting together a system now I would wait for the DX11 video cards.

Do you really need four cores? There is a rumor of a new AMD three core part.

[Nomad25055]

Greetings.

My mistake, I meant M4A79T hehe. As for what I have heard about these boards (the 79 and the 79T), there are two common problems. First, I seem to recall them being shipped with old/bad BIOS, the BIOS needing to be flashed or the BIOS chip needing to be replaced. The other problem, and this seems to be fairly common, has something to do with HyperTransport. I think I remember there being an error something to the effect of "HyperTransport flood error". There seems to be no fixing this any time soon, though I don`t think it`s an "OMG" issue. The last problem (may quite possibly be another board I am thinking of here) I have heard of, was an over volt problem. They tend to over volt your CPU. As for needing four cores, yes, I do. You need some extra power when running high end cards in SLI or Crossfire. And, I feel kinda like Tim Allen on the subject of power here:D.This machine will be built when Windows 7 drops btw, so this is all subject to change. Dx11 cards are sounding good.

Nomad

[Lissa]

Greetings!

As for having four SATA drives, I don`t need that many, two would suffice. On the topic of video cards, how does two EVGA Nvidia GTX 295 FTW editions grab you? As for RAM, four 2gb sticks of OCZ Gold AMD Edition ddr3 1600 will be going in this beast. All will be bundled with pre-existing hardware in a Raidmax Smilodon. I will be getting a good deal from a guy I know, so this $3000+ machine will only cost me about $2700. He runs a computer upgrade/LAN center type business. I will be using this machine to establish credit for myself via a loan from my bank (Regions). The smallest loan they will give is $3000, so why not built a PC to drool over?

Nomad

Too Expensive for something that will be replaced in 2 years or less. You really don't need that kind of power in your graphics cards. The graphics cards is the one area where you can stand to be a generation or two behind on a new build because you will need to upgrade sooner than anything else in the system. A high end processor and MB will go 3 to 5 years easy (just don't get the absolute bleeding edge). A good sound card will take you 3 to 5 years as well. The hard drives will last a good 5 years from a reputiable manufacter. Unless you really want Blue Ray a DVD isn't going to set you back much and will last a good long time. A good power supply will also go a long time. Cases will last and last and last. So, skimp a little on the video cards, but get top end in the other catagories as the machine, minus video card updates, will last you a good long time before you need to upgrade again.

[Nomad25055]

Greetings.

Why does everybody seem to think this will be outdated in two years? My last build cost about 1100 usd and the tech used was already dying, and it is still kicking with only two upgrades (GPU and RAM). As for the CPU on this rig, it will be a generation behind soon. And I decided to re-use my BFG Tech 7200GT (gag) until the DX11 cards make a solid appearance, which will likely be 2010. I see this machine lasting six or more years, and with an upgrade or two maybe more than that. Just look how long a Socket A setup has lasted.

Nomad

EDIT: I just remembered that it`s an AGP card so nvm. I will get a cheap PCI-e card

[Concillian]

Nomad

EDIT: I just remembered that it`s an AGP card so nvm. I will get a cheap PCI-e card

I guess it depends on what is considered acceptable performance. Socket A + AGP is something I'd have considered completely inadequate around 2-3 years ago (when games I wanted to play started using dual-core fairly extensively, which meant a motherboard upgrade to PCI-E, which were then cheaper than AGP counterparts.)

To someone else Socket A and AGP are adequate now. So it's really tough to nail down a complete recommendation without taking someone's needs into account. It's even tougher with games having an increasing dependence on internet activity so it's much tougher to separate out which component is causing issues when people experience slowdowns (memory, CPU, video, network, internet connection, lag, server)

[LavCat]

Greetings.

My mistake, I meant M4A79T hehe. As for what I have heard about these boards (the 79 and the 79T), there are two common problems. First, I seem to recall them being shipped with old/bad BIOS, the BIOS needing to be flashed or the BIOS chip needing to be replaced. The other problem, and this seems to be fairly common, has something to do with HyperTransport. I think I remember there being an error something to the effect of "HyperTransport flood error". There seems to be no fixing this any time soon, though I don`t think it`s an "OMG" issue. The last problem (may quite possibly be another board I am thinking of here) I have heard of, was an over volt problem. They tend to over volt your CPU. As for needing four cores, yes, I do. You need some extra power when running high end cards in SLI or Crossfire. And, I feel kinda like Tim Allen on the subject of power here:D.This machine will be built when Windows 7 drops btw, so this is all subject to change. Dx11 cards are sounding good.

Nomad

I googled "hypertransport flood error" and it seems to be a problem with MSI and Asus systems. Fortunately it is not a problem that I have. I run the 720 at 3.2 GHz and the L3 cache at 2.4. I intentionally run the core at 1.54 volts, which is high, but I'm not sure what the "over volt problem" is.

The DX11 ATi was demonstrated playing WoW at 7680x3200, 80 FPS, all the graphics options max. I could live with that.

[Nomad25055]

Greetings!

As I stated, I may have been thinking of a diferent motherboard when I mentiioned the over voltage problem for the CPU. Simply put, the board sends to much power to the CPU. That isn`t really a good thing. I will be waiting for DX11 cards to show up before I build a new rig, sadly that may be next year if nVidia is indeed so behind as everyone says. I want to see a good comparison of both companies offerings before I make a choice of hardware. The real question is this: Is physx that big of a deal? ATI does not support it unlike nVidia. This could make or break a decision for me, regardless of the final performance we see from the DX11 cards.

-Nomad

[Concillian]

I don't play any PhysX games, so I don't have much of an opinion.

I'll point out that it's been an option for nVidia for a couple years now and so far there has been 1 or 2 games worth playing that have proper implementation with incorporation of PhysX from the ground up. It seems one of those "wait 6-12 more months" things where you wait and they're still saying "wait 6-12 more months". IMO, as long as it remains proprietary, there will not be a large selection of games where PhysX is more than an afterthought (like UT III, which is 100% afterthought support)

I like Anandtech's articles and I think they do a good job of evaluating it honestly with a big chunk of this ATi vs. nVidia article dedicated to PhysX here:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3539&p=7

PhysX is a very subjective thing, though, so there's no "right" answer.

There is a decent market for used video cards though. IMO there's no harm in picking up a card, using it for 6 months and then selling and buying "the other guys" card. Used market depreciation is usually better or about the same as new card prices fall, so you really don't lose much in buying one, then deciding to switch later.