Spell staves

[Ebon]

Hey, don't you think staves are quite good on warriors? They do have dmg-to-hit prefixes and their spells compensate for the lack of shields. Healing makes you fearless; chain lighting kills tempting soul burners; firewall; all-the-them. Warriors are most proficient on weapons, too(don't tell me Rogues cuz they only bear the bows, otherwise you choose W), so they're maybe also the most versatile :P heheh, sorcerers.

[Astra-Lynn]

Unfortunately, staves are the slowest melee weapon for warriors.
I tried king's/speed staff on my 2-hand LAW. It pales in comparison with axes. Still fun, though.
When you don't have a shield, it's quite desirable to have haste/speed. Hard to compensate with a spell. But maybe that's just hell/hell talking.
Don't get me wrong, I love to use staves, but as for them being quite good.. I have to disagree.
I'm not telling you how to play, though. :) Have fun. Staves are awesome.
Also, rogues are quite good at melee combat. Don't underestimate them.

Oh, and boo to sorcerors. :D

[Ebon]

Unfortunately, staves are the slowest melee weapon for warriors.
I tried king's/speed staff on my 2-hand LAW. It pales in comparison with axes. Still fun, though.
When you don't have a shield, it's quite desirable to have haste/speed. Hard to compensate with a spell. But maybe that's just hell/hell talking.
Don't get me wrong, I love to use staves, but as for them being quite good.. I have to disagree.
I'm not telling you how to play, though. :) Have fun. Staves are awesome.
Also, rogues are quite good at melee combat. Don't underestimate them.

Oh, and boo to sorcerors.  :D
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Oh, to me it feels a bit weird to go all the way to double-hell, since Diablo is a long game anyway. Staves do add depth, IMO, in a hack-n-slash combat, so it becomes better. Maybe I'll try the Dark.
As for magic, well as a warrior I train him in it equally, it's good for the game.
As for rogue-swordswomen, I find it a bit cumbersome to level-up with a knife and a *HEAVY* shield, when all those tasty bows are passing by.

[Astra-Lynn]

You think using a staff on a warrior adds depth, but using a melee weapon on a rogue doesn't? That is odd.

[Ebon]

You think using a staff on a warrior adds depth, but using a melee weapon on a rogue doesn't? That is odd.
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I mean that a few mana-free spells for a warrior do remove some boredom from continual hack-n-slash. Especially in the beginning. Maybe in the end too. I don't think the fighter can cast 20 Firewall SPELLS without drinking some blue potions, unless he trained his life for magic. And it's also fun to use the same item for stomping AND for remote destruction :) King's War Staff of Apocalypse anyone? :P ... no, I don't have it.

EDIT: of course, a swordswoman rogue is an interesting idea, especially if you're a warrior cooping with ONE. I wasn't in the mood, that's it. If I'm not wrong, the difference will happen late in the game when dexterity will be by the hundreds.

As a lowly question, is it that the melee rogues are more defensive?

[Hammerskjold]

>I mean that a few mana-free spells for a warrior do remove some boredom from continual hack-n-slash. Especially in the beginning.

In the beginning phase or just for kicks, sure.


>Maybe in the end too.

Depends on what you're talking about. Style wise, that's so subjective that if you find it fun, more power to you. Combat efficiency wise, a Warrior is most efficient with a one handed weapon + shield setup. Unless you're playing some kind of variant rules, a warrior will most likely choose that setup in the late stage of the game.

An apoc stick is usually appreciated more by sorcerors, since they might have trouble with triple immune monsters. But warriors, well thankfully there is no physical damage immune monsters in D1.

>As a lowly question, is it that the melee rogues are more defensive?

I'm not quite sure I totally understand your question, but Rogues are possibly the most versatile class in D1 classic. They're the most efficient class with a bow, fairly efficient with spells, and can hold their own in 1handed weapon\shield melee with their high Dexterity. With some caveats. A rogue really benefits from a fast block shield, and their weapon might need some +damage modifier. (A Civerb's Cudgel iirc can be pretty handy in some situations.)

edited addition: Although I agree with you it would be a lot more interesting if a Warrior is proficient with all weapons, especially 2 handed ones, that is just not the way it's set up in D1 classic. 2 handed weapons only really got the love in Hellfire, with the Barbarians and Monks.

[Dako-ta]

Hi, Ebon,

EDIT: of course,  a swordswoman rogue is an interesting idea, especially if you're a warrior cooping with ONE. I wasn't in the mood, that's it. If I'm not wrong, the difference will happen late in the game when dexterity will be by the hundreds.

As a lowly question, is it that the melee rogues are more defensive?
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Just out of curiosity, have you done much reading at Claudio's Page:

http://www.claudiospage.com/ ?

I suspect not.

Claudio was a confirmed Rogue-lover, and, although he loved bows, he also was a strong proponent of the Rogue's versatility, and frequently wrote about an adaptive Rogue-playing style, which he called the CAT-Rogue. You might find his write-ups of interest.

Regards,

Dako-ta

[weakwarrior]

Hi, Ebon,
Just out of curiosity, have you done much reading at Claudio's Page:

http://www.claudiospage.com/ ?

I suspect not.

Claudio was a confirmed Rogue-lover, and, although he loved bows, he also was a strong proponent of the Rogue's versatility, and frequently wrote about an adaptive Rogue-playing style, which he called the CAT-Rogue. You might find his write-ups of interest.

Regards,

Dako-ta

Too much free time at work so I´ve been looking at old posts. Does anyone have link to a saved version of this page? The posted link no longer works. If not, I´ve heard that someone claimed the CAT-rogue to be the most efficient way to level. Can someone tell me what it is?

[Sekel]

Too much free time at work so I´ve been looking at old posts. Does anyone have link to a saved version of this page? The posted link no longer works. If not, I´ve heard that someone claimed the CAT-rogue to be the most efficient way to level. Can someone tell me what it is?

Generaly, CAT rogue is rogue who play on versatility. She is using bow as well as Dreamflange and CC. All depends on present monsters and your current mood.
When you enter dlvl with Doomguards and Succubi, chainlightning will do best. So you switch to RC (THC) + Dream and you act like angel of furry. For Dlvl 15 with Doomguards + Soul Burners, a bow is a good choice. And Balrogs with Azure Drakes can taste your triple damaging CC.
Again, it is about versatility. If you depend entirely on power of your bow, you do well but ... youre slow. CAT rogue can clear dlvls really fast, if the proper setup is chosen. Also, its good for keeping fun in play. Since you change your playing style, your not bored so fast as with *always the same* characters.

BTW:
Its not just about the items named above. Sometimes, you have to adjust your other equip as well. Its nice to hold Dreamflange in your arm, but if you do not have enough + Magic adding items, your spells will just hit surounding walls. And if you dont have enough ToHit for CC (it can happen even to rogue) you will swing your CC in the air. In these cases, all advantages of CAT rogue are in dust.

[Nystul]

Too much free time at work so I´ve been looking at old posts. Does anyone have link to a saved version of this page? The posted link no longer works. If not, I´ve heard that someone claimed the CAT-rogue to be the most efficient way to level. Can someone tell me what it is?

http://web.archive.org/web/20000229032141/.../www.catbwo.de/

Claudio's rogues tended to be high AC, mana shield always on, always lugging around both a high damage bow and a melee weapon/Stormshield combo and switching between them depending on the enemies, and using some attack spells but not nearly as much as some people. He was particularly fond of the melee setup and was sure to reply to anyone who would say that rogues should use a bow (even though we all know they really should :shuriken:).

[weakwarrior]

Thanks to both of you. Very helpful read.

[weakwarrior]

He was particularly fond of the melee setup and was sure to reply to anyone who would say that rogues should use a bow (even though we all know they really should :shuriken:).

Didn't you complete an IM game as a warrior with a TC and Naj?

[Nystul]

Didn't you complete an IM game as a warrior with a TC and Naj?

Yup. The game has a sense of humor sometimes.

[weakwarrior]

http://web.archive.org/web/20000229032141/.../www.catbwo.de/

Claudio's rogues tended to be high AC, mana shield always on, always lugging around both a high damage bow and a melee weapon/Stormshield combo and switching between them depending on the enemies, and using some attack spells but not nearly as much as some people. He was particularly fond of the melee setup and was sure to reply to anyone who would say that rogues should use a bow (even though we all know they really should :shuriken:).

Since many of the links on Claudio's page don't work anymore I have a quick question - perhaps addressed by him. What do you do on lvl 15, hell difficulty, if there are soul burners and balrogs (I'm pretty sure I've seen that combination). Using a bow on balrgos is really a tough way to go (killing them with CL is difficult and without the added mana and magic benefit of a DF it's harder still) but not using a bow on soul burners is truly a pain as well. I guess CC with loads of stone curse could work (one difficulty is that it's hard to cast sc when there are melee monsters all over you, but if you don't then the soul burners will keep hurting you), but is their a better way? I guess there always is esc/start a new game and since it's a combo of monster you are trying to avoid you'll probably be successful.

[Nystul]

Since many of the links on Claudio's page don't work anymore I have a quick question - perhaps addressed by him. What do you do on lvl 15, hell difficulty, if there are soul burners and balrogs (I'm pretty sure I've seen that combination). Using a bow on balrgos is really a tough way to go (killing them with CL is difficult and without the added mana and magic benefit of a DF it's harder still) but not using a bow on soul burners is truly a pain as well. I guess CC with loads of stone curse could work (one difficulty is that it's hard to cast sc when there are melee monsters all over you, but if you don't then the soul burners will keep hurting you), but is their a better way? I guess there always is esc/start a new game and since it's a combo of monster you are trying to avoid you'll probably be successful.

Well, here is something from Claudio's page: "However, this is not always possible, a level with Soul Burners and Azure Drakes means: bow usage for the Soul Burners and weapon/shield combination for the Azure Drakes. In such a case I use my bow and Stone Curse melee monster if necessary, sometimes switching to weapon/shield combination if no Soul Burners are around. Bow setup, Stone Cursing and Fireballing the Azure Drakes is another option."

I think the same idea would work for balrogs, except no fireball.

If you want to get cute about it (less Claudio and more Nystul on this part), you can try to split monsters using scouting spells. In this case, you might cast CL into unexplored areas to try to draw out the balrogs only. You could fight them with your shield on, and then switch to bow to move forward and clean up the soulburners. If you want to get really cute about it, you could use bone spirit as the scouting spell. :shuriken:

[weakwarrior]

Well, here is something from Claudio's page: "However, this is not always possible, a level with Soul Burners and Azure Drakes means: bow usage for the Soul Burners and weapon/shield combination for the Azure Drakes. In such a case I use my bow and Stone Curse melee monster if necessary, sometimes switching to weapon/shield combination if no Soul Burners are around. Bow setup, Stone Cursing and Fireballing the Azure Drakes is another option."

I think the same idea would work for balrogs, except no fireball.

If you want to get cute about it (less Claudio and more Nystul on this part), you can try to split monsters using scouting spells. In this case, you might cast CL into unexplored areas to try to draw out the balrogs only. You could fight them with your shield on, and then switch to bow to move forward and clean up the soulburners. If you want to get really cute about it, you could use bone spirit as the scouting spell. :shuriken:

That is very cute since the bone spirit would work on balrog/hell spawn combination as well. You timed your post perfectly since I saw it right before I watched "27 dresses" with my wife and it gave me something to smile about during the movie.