Threat and TAnk Classes

[Mavfin]

I've helped out with diagnosing some warrior tank problems for friends lately, and there's a lot of warriors out there tanking like it's still BC. i.e. dev spam+SS. I'll look at a WWS and see 30 shield slams, 30 Heroic Strikes, 60 devastates, 7 revenges, and not a conc blow to be found. Usually these warriors are also low on expertise, as they've geared for highest mitigation *only*, and they're doing < 3K TPS, and every other tank is ripping off them, and the warrior doesn't have a clue as to why.

[Taelas]

Well, if you mean that you wait the second to use your '9''s on 9, sure, you will have no free gcd's. The fact is that it's not a 969 rotation, it's a 968 rotation due to the length of consecrate and the ability for HOly Shield to be refreshed at 8 seconds with a duration of 10. You can properly execute the rotation and you end up with 1 gcd every 18-21 seconds where everything is on CD. These CD's are used for Divine Plea, Exorcism, Hammer of Wrath. This becomes less of an area of importance with 3.1 and the ability/desire to keep Divine Plea up constantly.

You CANNOT use Consecration or Holy Shield after 8 seconds, because of GCD constraints. I'm not simply talking out of my rear, here.

There are no free GCDs in a properly executed 969 rotation. Even counting haste where your GCD shortens, you will have to drop something (or delay it, which is worse for threat than simply dropping your lowest threat move for one rotation).

While for most tanks, waiting the second on Consecrate/Holy Shield will get you a very smooth 969 rotation that means that you can even macro your tanking into 2 buttons ( I wouldn't macro it personally ), it's not the end all be all of how to execute the rotation.

Quite frankly, yes, yes, it is.

yes it is - but I'm not maintaining my threat lead with either by themselves.

My point is, you can afford to drop Devastate for Thunder Clap, and it will be a threat benefit rather than a loss.

[Tal]

My point is, you can afford to drop Devastate for Thunder Clap, and it will be a threat benefit rather than a loss.

Yes I understood that from the beginning. Because Thunderclap is not spammable (like devastate) it tends to throw off my spammable rotation of skills - its one more cooldown that I have to watch and throw into the rotation. Its not a choice of whether or not to replace devastate in the rotation its a question of which of my other skills that ARE on a cooldown gets delayed.

Is that more clear?

[Kevin]

I've helped out with diagnosing some warrior tank problems for friends lately, and there's a lot of warriors out there tanking like it's still BC. i.e. dev spam+SS. I'll look at a WWS and see 30 shield slams, 30 Heroic Strikes, 60 devastates, 7 revenges, and not a conc blow to be found. Usually these warriors are also low on expertise, as they've geared for highest mitigation *only*, and they're doing < 3K TPS, and every other tank is ripping off them, and the warrior doesn't have a clue as to why.

Yeah I talked with Frag about prot tanking before hitting the normals because I knew things had changed, but well I was a vanilla WoW warrior and revenge is still my first button to hit and that at least is still a good habit. :) I also got the tip that conc blow was more than just a stun now and I used it. Devastate was pretty much only used to put up a sunder stack and if I had nothing else to do with that GCD. SS was still very much a high priority. T-clap and shock wave got high priority on AoE. T-clap still got used pretty much most cooldown on single targets to. Shockwave did get skipped at times, generally right after I hit shield block because well the mobs were stunned.

Sure I wasn't fully up to speed on wariror tanking when I did it, but I wasn't fully up to speed on the ret stuff that I'm comparing it to either. :)

The difference in survivability between Ret and prot (pally or warrior prot) is HUGE though. It's actually part of why I like tanking as ret if the healer doesn't care. They may have to actually put some effort in to keep me alive and I need to pay attention to surge of light procs and when to use them and pay attention to sacred shield too because those can matter as a ret tank in a heroic. :)

[bonemage]

While for most tanks, waiting the second on Consecrate/Holy Shield will get you a very smooth 969 rotation that means that you can even macro your tanking into 2 buttons ( I wouldn't macro it personally ), it's not the end all be all of how to execute the rotation.

Why would you wait on Consecrate? It has already gone down prior to it coming up in your rotation. You get to it every 9 secs, but it is available every 8 secs. Waiting on HS doesn't work too well in practice either due to client/server disagreements. It generally is at risk of going down even when you're looking to jump on it as soon as you get off of GCD and it is up next. At best, there is some extra time there, but not 1.5 secs worth of it, and any time spent waiting to cast HS at the latest possible time before it drops off is time not spent continuing with the other abilities. There certainly isn't a free GCD anywhere in 969. When you need a Divine Plea or whatever else, you make room for it by dropping something out of the regular rotation.

Now, if you use Glyph of Consecrate (viewed as rotation breaking), you'll get a hitch in the 969 rotation that you could squeeze in an extra GCD, but then you're idling your top two threat abilities (the "sixes") for that "extra" GCD, or end up dropping Consecrate to get back to the "sixes" as one just came off of cooldown. Without the glyph, when you need something else, you just drop a 9 (this really varies on the scenario which one you should use) which ends up being the same thing as above, unless you prefer to frequently idle the "sixes" for a GCD while not dropping Consecrate, and that isn't a threat gain.

Macroing is not the way to go for the rotation either, I agree with you there. How you open varies on the type of pull, and macroing means you run it the same way, which isn't ideal. Plus, there are numerous types of interruptions (stuns, movement, etc.) that give you a choice on where to start again in your rotation. Macroing it removes that choice and limits how effective you can be. If you come out of Vortex on Malygos and use Consecrate as your first "nine" when really should have put of HS, or used Hammer instead of ShoR when both are off cooldown, then you're not maximizing your threat. In a similar multi mob scenario, you are more optimal to use Hammer first and then ShoR.

[Tuftears]

Question for folks with paladin tanks that are doing high threats, any tips? I've run into some paladin tanks that haven't been so good at generating threat and am wondering what tips to offer them.

[shoju]

Why would you wait on Consecrate? It has already gone down prior to it coming up in your rotation. You get to it every 9 secs, but it is available every 8 secs. Waiting on HS doesn't work too well in practice either due to client/server disagreements. It generally is at risk of going down even when you're looking to jump on it as soon as you get off of GCD and it is up next. At best, there is some extra time there, but not 1.5 secs worth of it, and any time spent waiting to cast HS at the latest possible time before it drops off is time not spent continuing with the other abilities. There certainly isn't a free GCD anywhere in 969. When you need a Divine Plea or whatever else, you make room for it by dropping something out of the regular rotation.

I'm not saying that you should wait on consecrate. I'm saying all the macro's that I have seen have a 'stop gap' in them to ensure that the 969 is preserved (I don't understand Blizz's macro language enough to understand what they mean by that, I just understood it to mean that it kept you on the 9's and 6's).

I will take your word if you are saying that there isn't a free GCD. Maintankadin theorycrafters are claiming that you get the free GCD after at best 2 rotations, but more than likely in the 3rd or 4th rotation.

As I haven't tanked anything meaningful since the week after 3.0 as prot, I can only rely on what the theorycraft says. If the TC is wrong, then it's wrong. I have only recently been getting back into tank theory because of dual spec. I originally planned on going holy with the second spec (and probably still will) but I figured I would check out the idea behind the new tank style.

Macroing is not the way to go for the rotation either, I agree with you there. How you open varies on the type of pull, and macroing means you run it the same way, which isn't ideal. Plus, there are numerous types of interruptions (stuns, movement, etc.) that give you a choice on where to start again in your rotation. Macroing it removes that choice and limits how effective you can be. If you come out of Vortex on Malygos and use Consecrate as your first "nine" when really should have put of HS, or used Hammer instead of ShoR when both are off cooldown, then you're not maximizing your threat. In a similar multi mob scenario, you are more optimal to use Hammer first and then ShoR.

100% agree.

---------------------------

I will edit my combat timer and see if I can get it to print out the 969 rotation. I'm curious why they are sticking with the idea of the free gcd if it doesn't work in practice. Currently I only have it going for ret Cooldowns, Dk rune timers, and half heartedly on affliction spells. It's just a pet project I'm trying to get modeled for my programming portfolio.

[Lissa]

Question for folks with paladin tanks that are doing high threats, any tips? I've run into some paladin tanks that haven't been so good at generating threat and am wondering what tips to offer them.

The big things:

Seal of Vengenance - this is the tanking seal to run now. The amount of threat it will generate is a big, big help. Seal of Righteous should never be used now, either for DPS or for tanking (Blood for DPS, Vengeance for tanking).

Judging Light or Wisdom every time Judment is off cooldown - This is another big threat jump due to the effects of Seal of Vengeance when you Judge.

Holy Shield on every cooldown

Consecrate as needed, but you shouldn't need it. Consecrate is best used to get a big threat lead or if you feel people are getting too close, otherwise for single target threat, you shouldn't need it.

Shield of Righteousness every time it's off cooldown. If you get the Libram of Obstruction, then make sure that a SoR follows a judgement so that you get the additional benefit of converting the block value that the Libram gives you into increasing the damage, and thereby threat, of the SoR

Hammer of Righteousness on every cooldown as well.

As noted, the rotation now it 969 (9 being Holy Shield, 6 being SoR and HoR, and 9 being Judgement). With this rotation, it's unlikely you'll have any time to really dispell things from yourself (you're usually pretty much every GC).

Stats for Pallies
Stamina, Strenght, Block Value, Block Rating, Dodge, Parry, Hit, and Defense are the things to look for on items. Expertise is a waste of points for a Paladin as only normal melee hits and HoR can be parried or dodged (Parry bombing yourself is less likely as a Paladin than other tanks).

[Mordekhuul]

Shield of Righteousness every time it's off cooldown. If you get the Libram of Obstruction, then make sure that a SoR follows a judgement so that you get the additional benefit of converting the block value that the Libram gives you into increasing the damage, and thereby threat, of the SoR

Caveat so no one gets confused. Don't actually ever delay a ShoR to wait for a judgement. Doing so has an overall reduction on threat generation and DPS.

969, done perfectly (impossibly assuming no lag, etc) will give you essentially an 18 second rotation. Within those 18 seconds you'll get 3 ShoR, two of which benefit from Libram of Obstruction and one that does not.

969 with delays thrown in whenever ShoR would be used without the libram proc up will result in only getting two ShoR off every 18 seononds, both of which will benefit.

I don't think Lissa implied one should delay the rotation at all, but thought someone reading her tips might get that impression (it is a common misconception on how to best benefit from the libram).

[Taelas]

Yes I understood that from the beginning. Because Thunderclap is not spammable (like devastate) it tends to throw off my spammable rotation of skills - its one more cooldown that I have to watch and throw into the rotation. Its not a choice of whether or not to replace devastate in the rotation its a question of which of my other skills that ARE on a cooldown gets delayed.

Is that more clear?

I'm not saying you should Thunder Clap every time it comes off CD (though if you want absolute maximum threat, that's how it "should" be done) -- I'm just saying it's not a huge issue to replace a single Devastate with Thunder Clap once every 20 seconds. I'd watch Thunder Clap duration even if I wasn't on TC duty, purely because I have the ability to refresh it as needed.

If I came off as patronizing, I apologize -- that wasn't my intention.

[Tal]

I'm not saying you should Thunder Clap every time it comes off CD (though if you want absolute maximum threat, that's how it "should" be done) -- I'm just saying it's not a huge issue to replace a single Devastate with Thunder Clap once every 20 seconds. I'd watch Thunder Clap duration even if I wasn't on TC duty, purely because I have the ability to refresh it as needed.

If I came off as patronizing, I apologize -- that wasn't my intention.

The situation I was referring to was 25 man Patch with two insanely geared and skilled Druids as my HSB's. Dropping a TC into the rotation I tended to start losing threat against them. Keeping the rotation to my usual kept them further off my heels.:P

[bonemage]

Question for folks with paladin tanks that are doing high threats, any tips? I've run into some paladin tanks that haven't been so good at generating threat and am wondering what tips to offer them.

Really you need to get them to make the 969 rotation 2nd nature. It is excellent for threat and mitigation, and even if run less than optimally, is still very effective. It makes movement fights easier because your mind can be on other things while keeping your threat and mitigation running at top speed, as they are habit. Button mashing whatever useful tanking spell isn't on cooldown is still pretty effective, so I don't know how there can be low threat pally tanks. In short 969 is this:

The "<span style="color:#FF6600">sixes": Hammer of the Righteous and Shield of Righteousness. These have 6 sec cooldowns, and each is used every 6 secs and thus are the "sixes".

The "<span style="color:#FF6600">nines": Holy Shield, Consecrate, Judgement of choice (typically wisdom). These have 8 or 9 sec cooldowns, but each gets used every 9 seconds.

How to use: Pull with Avenger's Shield. Use a "nine", use a "six", use a "nine", use a "six", use a "nine" until the tank or the mob is dead. After your initial choices on which to use at the start, only one "six" and one "nine" will ever be off of cooldown, so you don't have to keep track of what is next, simply use what is available. On my admittedly rudimentary action bars, I have the "sixes" together, then my single target taunt, then the "nines" grouped together so it is easy to see what comes next if I must look, whether I'm after a "six" or a "nine". After some practice, my fingers now dance on habit. With more experience, the tank will know which ones to fire up first, depending on the fight. Not knowing but still sticking with the rotation, while less than optimal, is still quite effective. If you screw up, or something screws you up (like a stun), start back into the rotation using a "six".

Setup: One point should be taken in Improved Judgements. Do not use Glyph of Consecrate. Use Seal of Vengeance/Corruption, use Blessing of Sanctuary and Devotion Aura.

This is my typical tanking build. It is optimized for 10 man raids where I assume I am the only pally, so I have full Kings and improved Might. It's at least a good starting point for a new tank. There are some various ways to approach talents, but all solid tank builds generally have all talents on the prot tree tier 5 and above.

Gear: Gearing changed a lot for tankadins in 3.0. Don't let them use spell power gear. The first 15 emblems of heroism should be used to buy the Libram that Lissa linked. It is excellent for threat and mitigation.

@shoju: Theorycrafting may show a free GCD after a few rotations, but in practice, will vary quite a bit depending on the fight, client/server lag, etc., so isn't something that can be effectively planned on. With everything else going on, watching for when it to finally, truly become available is likely counterproductive.

[Taelas]

The situation I was referring to was 25 man Patch with two insanely geared and skilled Druids as my HSB's. Dropping a TC into the rotation I tended to start losing threat against them. Keeping the rotation to my usual kept them further off my heels.:P

All right. Good thing that you shouldn't need it with two Ferals, then.:)(Assuming at least one of them specced appropriately, of course.)

[Mordekhuul]

This is my typical tanking build. It is optimized for 10 man raids where I assume I am the only pally, so I have full Kings and improved Might. It's at least a good starting point for a new tank. There are some various ways to approach talents, but all solid tank builds generally have all talents on the prot tree tier 5 and above.

Mine as well. Some tanks drop points out of ret to get 5/5 seals of the pure, but I can't really imagine why given how poor the returns are on those 5 points and how enjoyable 15% extra run speed is (2/2 imp might and heart of the crusader are nice in raids as well, but can be discounted somewhat as any holy/ret paladin can provide the same, potentially).

[Kevin]

Mine as well. Some tanks drop points out of ret to get 5/5 seals of the pure, but I can't really imagine why given how poor the returns are on those 5 points and how enjoyable 15% extra run speed is (2/2 imp might and heart of the crusader are nice in raids as well, but can be discounted somewhat as any holy/ret paladin can provide the same, potentially).

If you know you won't need kings in the build, where would you put those extra 5 points? I realize threat isn't a big deal but would reckoning be where you would drop them? Or would conviction or seals of the pure work out better? Just curious on that, especially since it's my understanding that a blocked attack, full or partial, appears to be able to trigger reckoning as well.

[PapaSmurf]

One thing that threw me for a loop when I started bear tanking was dealing with skills both on and off the gcd. For bears your typical on gcd rotation is Mangle -> lacerate -> lacerate -> Mangle -> lacerate -> lacerate -> Mangle -> lacerate -> swipe -> Mangle -> swipe -> swipe -> Mangle -> swipe -> lacerate -> .... On boss fights I do start with berserk and just Mangle until berserk is down then start into the normal rotation.

you basically get 2 gcds between every mangle. Initially you always use lacerate until you get a 5 stack. Once the 5 stack is up I always use swipe between mangles hitting lacerate every once in a while to keep a 5 stack up. Where it gets tricky is weaving in maul. Because maul is used on swing and is off the gcd there are times where you actually have to hit 2 buttons at once. This is the same with heroic strike. Coming from being a healer and caster dps I never had to push a button more than once per gcd. It took a bit to learn to maintain the perfect on gcd sequence and always make sure maul was queued for every swing.

[bonemage]

If you know you won't need kings in the build, where would you put those extra 5 points? I realize threat isn't a big deal but would reckoning be where you would drop them? Or would conviction or seals of the pure work out better? Just curious on that, especially since it's my understanding that a blocked attack, full or partial, appears to be able to trigger reckoning as well.

Well, you wouldn't get all 5 points just by dropping Kings. You need 3 of those points to climb up to the higher tiers on Prot. Reckoning would work, but it's generally a poor choice. Vengeance/Corruption get little to nothing out of it, so all you end up with are some no-extra-threat white hits. Reckoning is better with different seals, but tanking with Reckoning + Seal of Righteousness is still far worse than Vengeance/Corruption without reckoning. If you want it for solo power, you may want to use Glyph of Seal of Vengeance (also works for Corruption) to help counter parry gibbing.

@Morde: Of course it's your spec. I aped it from you. :shuriken: I really tried hard to put my own spin on it, but it really is nearly perfect. Seals of the Pure is the only thing I'd like to get, but it isn't worth giving up what I have for it, so really all I'm saying is I'd like more talent points. On that note, we get them next patch. Two talents go from 5 ranks to 3, so by taking the new Tier 1 talent instead of Kings (now trainable), you'll get the same things with 54 instead of 58 points. I'll probably get Divine Guardian. In current content, I can think of 2 of the more difficult fights where the MT can Divine Shield safely during periods of massive raid damage. Malygos' vortex, and Sapphiron's air phase.

[Mordekhuul]

If you know you won't need kings in the build, where would you put those extra 5 points? I realize threat isn't a big deal but would reckoning be where you would drop them? Or would conviction or seals of the pure work out better? Just curious on that, especially since it's my understanding that a blocked attack, full or partial, appears to be able to trigger reckoning as well.

I actually would enjoy having them in reckoning, despite some extra parry-hasting on bosses that do so.

However, dropping 5 out of kings means you still need to spend 3 somewhere in the first few tiers of prot or you are short on talents to get tier 6 talents. I'd put the 3 in improved hammer of justice and the 2 extra some random place. 2% more crit that I'd never notice much or perhaps 2/2 Divine Guardian for the occasional gimicks.

Don't look at my spec on non-raid days lately though, by the way. I've trended towards a PVP holy build for battlegrounds (and maybe 2v2 soon), which has been kind of a fun change.

[TheDragoon]

Paladins are the best tanks for threat limited fights. No one can touch a Paladin if they get threat started first.

I would note that I frequently had to slow down my rotation while off-tanking for you to avoid ripping aggro when you were tanking and I was offtanking in the raid we did last week. :)

[Kevin]

However, dropping 5 out of kings means you still need to spend 3 somewhere in the first few tiers of prot or you are short on talents to get tier 6 talents.

Umm no you don't have to put them anywhere else.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xVA0ugteIRGoxsb0b

Took 5 out of kings, put into reckoning.....