Is the US headed towards a socialist government?

[kandrathe]

I suspect what that is about, and probably what the paper is driving at, given her interests, is social capital. People who are well-connected, social people, with similarly connected families do slightly better at almost everything than those who are not, ceteris paribus. Church is a way of making those connections, whereas there is no similar associative group for the irreligious.

And, I'm not really claiming much different than that. In my experience, the value of "Church" is really as a means of forming social bonds. Most "education" taught at church is superficial or tangential to the salient core theology. Often people are mostly bored or confused by the sermons. There are probably other means of making these social bonds, however, I've never seen anything near as effective as "church" in achieving the task. I have a very good friend who is a UU - Atheist, and goes to church every Sunday. So, he is an Atheist, religiously.

[eppie]

I think you know where I stand on that. The less the better. The government interferes in our lives with direct or indirect taxation, laws, or regulation of behaviors.

So why do you find it OK that a priest tells you what to do?

Individually, if they choose, people can be smart, but en-mass people tend not to be smart and I still believe they need a path to follow.

Well and that is exactly the behavior organised religion feeds on. If you find that organised religion has all the right answers this might be fine.....but I think that anyone (also religious people) can say it hasn't.

You should not do things because you are told to do them, but only because you know them to be right.

Well and how do you find that out? I guess it still needs some government rules. Otherwise you are looking at anarchism.

You need to look at the origin of the Koran and understand why it was made, and the same is true with many Judeo-Christian texts. Often the selection of which parts are included or excluded, the phrasing of the text, and the interpretation derived from them are twisted to fit a particular world view. There is much evidence, for example, that women held positions of prominence in the early Christian church. It was only later, after Christianity became more main stream that women were disallowed from leadership.

Exactly, this paragraph almost literally states my opinion. I don't mind people reading a holy book (contrary to Geert Wilders in Holland who wants to ban the Koran it just like Mein Kampf). It was organised religion that I was talking about. And as you say, it is all about interpretation, and dependent on who is in power at the moment. And this is exactly why I made my first comment about religion doing much more against our freedom than the US government.

Don't be swayed by the spectacle of any one particular example. Give anyone tremendous amounts of money, power and fame overnight, and they too are bound to be a loose cannon. Also, the camera loves the extraordinary, and eschews the mundane. You never hear about the humble simple people (e.g. LL Cool J, Russell Simmons), who don't drive their BMW's over the paparazzi or punch them in the face.I respect your opinion. It certainly has its flaws, but I would guess for many aimless people it's better than nothing.

Of course but the point here is that all those rich rappers and profesional athletes that openly show their religion in public, make many people really think that their talent was given to them because they are religious......and that the rest doesn't really matter. You can live like a criminal but as long as you pray you will be fine. To me this doesn't seem to be a good thing.

[kandrathe]

So why do you find it OK that a priest tells you what to do?

"And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules." It is more of a suggestion than an order. If I sin, the priest doesn't have me arrested.

Well and that is exactly the behavior organized religion feeds on. If you find that organized religion has all the right answers this might be fine.....but I think that anyone (also religious people) can say it hasn't.

Here is an eastern philosophy answer for you; There are many paths up the mountain, some are shorter and difficult, others are much easier but take a lifetime (or many perhaps). When you read something that tells you something you know cannot be true, you doubt it, and if based on the weight of evidence you might throw it away entirely. So, back to the example of gender equality, or egalitarianism and complementarianism; Considering the nature of a "God" that is sexless, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, would men and women be much different in his/her eyes? Those people that persist in setting men above women, do so because they are reading the texts (and mostly very old ones) literally. Which is the same fault that we have with fundamentalist muslims, that they are trying to fit a twentieth first century world into a 5th century sensibility. It can be done... as it was done back in the those days... by the sword.

Well and how do you find that out? I guess it still needs some government rules. Otherwise you are looking at anarchism.

How do I know that what the government is telling me is right? A society either needs people to be on autopilot and following a known safe path, or they need people to be skilled in critical thinking. Not everyone that I have met has the skill or interest in being discerning. Some were born to be sheep.

Exactly, this paragraph almost literally states my opinion. I don't mind people reading a holy book (contrary to Geert Wilders in Holland who wants to ban the Koran it just like Mein Kampf). It was organised religion that I was talking about. And as you say, it is all about interpretation, and dependent on who is in power at the moment. And this is exactly why I made my first comment about religion doing much more against our freedom than the US government.

Just because there is not "one truth" does not mean that all the gathered theological philosophy of humanity is trash. In physics parlance, Newton was wrong, so we move on and try out Einstein, who may also be wrong. But, was Newton moving us in the right direction? Yes. Similarly, we can look to the work of rational intelligent people, who often were as smart (or smarter) than Newton, who worked and wrote in the fields of philosophy, and in this case theology. I'm not claiming that Christianity has a lock on the truth, because I find just as much inspiration from Mo Tzu, Lau Tzu, and the Dalai Lama, or the Vedas and the Upanishads. I think what many Europeans rail against is that you have had much religious interference in your government and politics, while yes, religion does play a role in politics in the USA, it is more of a moral litmus test. Notice President Obama even had to pass through that screen of legitimacy in embracing his faith, and thereby expressing his morality.

Of course but the point here is that all those rich rappers and profesional athletes that openly show their religion in public, make many people really think that their talent was given to them because they are religious......and that the rest doesn't really matter.

But, as I said, there are more who do not live a gangsta lifestyle that draws the attention of the paparazzi. What we see in the media is the slimy underbelly of our culture, which for some reason seems to sell TV time, magazines, and newspapers. Watching a person live a boring normal life isn't exciting, but watching some fallen star puke their guts out, then commit assault and get arrested is titillating to enough people to keep the tabloids in business.

You can live like a criminal but as long as you pray you will be fine. To me this doesn't seem to be a good thing.

We know that is not true, at least in the secular sense, justice will eventually prevail and the gansta will fall down. Praying (especially in public) is not a promise of goodness, earnestness, or even a faith in God. The *real* religious people I know are never ostentatious, glamor seeking, and agonize over even pampering themselves once in awhile. They are the kinds of people who fund and volunteer their time for helping people who need help. Again, what most people see are the slimy underbelly of "religiousness" where people use it to slake their greed for money or power. In my opinion, Christianity is not the football player praising God for the touchdown, it's the person who went to visit a stranger in a nursing home who has no relatives or friends, the person who volunteers to serve food to homeless people at the shelter, or the people who travel around the world to build needy people clean drinking water and efficient sewage systems. If you think about it, this guy Jesus was a social activist who tried to get people involved in each others lives rather than tied down to legalism or pursuing greedy, unfulfilled lives. It was a radical philosophy for the time, and so the powers in charge, both Jewish and Roman, killed him for it.

[Nastie_Bowie]

I don't respect any religion, and I don't respect the 'believing in' that people do. However, I can respect people that are religious based on other qualities or deeds or they way they live there live.
Of course as long as these religious people mind their own business.

And in the western world it is christianity that minds the business of other people the most (no swearing, don't work on sunday, the government decides if you can have an abortion or euthenasia, sex on TV is evil but violence is fine, if your are not catholic you can forget getting a good job). Because of all these things, worrying about somebody wearing a burqa is the last thing on my mind. Although I absolutely disrespect somebody that does, it is her own business. I also agree however (contrary to some left wing people) that somebody that wears a burqa and can't find a job for that reason should not get unemployment money or welfare.

You claim to have a PhD. After that mouthful, I am going to have to take everything you say with more than a few grains of salt.

:wacko:

[eppie]

Kandrathe,

I dont know if you follow the case of Eluana Englaro in Italy.

Anyway, a 'good' example of how the catholic church and the right wing government shamelesly worked together in deciding about a persons life.

I guess in this case you and I are both right, sadly.

[ShadowHM]

Edited: not worth the energy cost to play

[kandrathe]

I dont know if you follow the case of Eluana Englaro in Italy.

We have had numerous cases in the US such as this, although mostly the legal wrangling is either because of one family member or some politician who wants to affirm their "Pro Life" position with their constituency.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you think about it) the only people who suffer are the relatives who are stuck with a dependent that is not quite dead. The almost dead person is not suffering, so mercy is not usually an issue in the cases where a person is in a permanent brain dead state. I think far more difficult are the terminally ill who would like to opt for a quick and more painless death. I suspect we are on the same side of this issue, in that I believe a person needs to make their own choices.

[NicksLP]

who cares we are all going to die in 2012 anyways

[kandrathe]

who cares we are all going to die in 2012 anyways

Is this the Mayan calendar one? 220 predictions on the end of the world

[NicksLP]

Is this the Mayan calendar one? 220 predictions on the end of the world

The Mayan caldendar abruptly ends on December 21, 2012. There are many theories (conspiratorial and factual) surrounding this date I have over the last few months been reading up on them all.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

If you want to do your own research just google/youtube the following keywords/phrases:

2012
David Wilcock (very radical stuff)
Pineal Gland
Planet X (a very interesting theory but one of the less credible)
Polar Shifts
Egypt/Amun Ra
Atlantis (this ancient theoretical civilization is very prominent throughout all the theories)
Freemasonry (Practitioners of both kabala and ancient astrology as much as these guys dont want to admit it they are so totally in on this type of crap! they also reference the bible)

There is also a movie coming out called "Google Search: 2012" the opening trailer is just a giant (approximatly 5-6 mile high wave) crashing over what looks like to be the Himalayan mountains.

"How would the government prepare 6 billion people for the end of the world?"

"It wouldn't."

----

"Yeah man, that's song's about that."
"It's-it's about-- about aliens?"
[kid to the side whispers] "We're the aliens... we're the savages..."
"Yeah, man. You didn't know that? This country is founded-- it was founded by people who were into aliens, man. George Washington, man, he was in a cult, and the cult was into aliens, man. You didn't know that?
"No."
"Oh man. They were way into that type of stuff, man.

(anyone tell me what movie that quotes from?):P

[Jester]

The Mayan caldendar abruptly ends on December 21, 2012. There are many theories (conspiratorial and factual) surrounding this date I have over the last few months been reading up on them all.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

If you want to do your own research just google/youtube the following keywords/phrases:

If you want to understand the calendar of a civilization from 1500 years ago, google and youtube search them. I'm sure they must have posted a video explaining themselves.

The 2012 junk is not taken seriously by anyone with expertise in Mayan culture. It is a silly misinterpretation of the longest cycle of their calendar round, and nothing more.

-Jester

[NicksLP]

If you want to understand the calendar of a civilization from 1500 years ago, google and youtube search them. I'm sure they must have posted a video explaining themselves.

The 2012 junk is not taken seriously by anyone with expertise in Mayan culture. It is a silly misinterpretation of the longest cycle of their calendar round, and nothing more.

-Jester

Yes, that's exactly what I was saying: 1500 years ago the ancient mayans created a calendar which ends on December 21, 2012; and then created Livejournal so all of us emo 21st centurians can whine and bitch about the end of days! Google and Youtube totally didn't come around until the complete extintion of the mayans, the two being found of course right next to the calendar and a scroll of parchment that said "README: Idiots guide to interpreting this calendar and other various instructions on how to use this here alienware laptop to post it on this thing call the internet which doesnt actually exist yet".

I'm not saying these theories are 100 percent accurate, or even at all in the ballpark of fact, they do however all take themselves somewhat seriously and go to great lengths to convince those who dare to read about them of there importance and some of them even present evidence backing said claims.

See: Nostradamas (sp?)

And from my understanding the Mayan caldendar is not cyclical, it has an ending. And that ending is somewhere around the Winter Solstace of 2012 (I'm not saying this day is the end of the world, only the end of the calendar).

[Jester]

See: Nostradamas (sp?)

Yes, that's approximately the level we're working on here. Also see: your daily horroscope.

And from my understanding the Mayan caldendar is not cyclical, it has an ending. And that ending is somewhere around the Winter Solstace of 2012 (I'm not saying this day is the end of the world, only the end of the calendar).

And your understanding is based on what? The quick-and-dirty wikipedia clearly contradicts this concept. Everything I've ever read in the scholarly literature on the topic emphasizes that the Mayans have a cyclical interpretation of events, which would mean the "end" of the calendar would be nonsensical.

-Jester

[NicksLP]

Yes, that's approximately the level we're working on here. Also see: your daily horroscope.
And your understanding is based on what? The quick-and-dirty wikipedia clearly contradicts this concept. Everything I've ever read in the scholarly literature on the topic emphasizes that the Mayans have a cyclical interpretation of events, which would mean the "end" of the calendar would be nonsensical.

-Jester

A cyclical interpretation is also noted in Maya creation accounts, in which the present world and the humans in it were preceded by other worlds (one to five others, depending on the tradition) which were fashioned in various forms by the gods, but subsequently destroyed.

The "cyclical interpretation" you refer to does indeed have both a begining and an end (multiple beginings and ends actually), each begining and end marking the coming of a new "age" (or world).

December 21st, 2012 is the "end" of this "age" (and perhaps the begining of another).

[Tal]

The "cyclical interpretation" you refer to does indeed have both a begining and an end (multiple beginings and ends actually), each begining and end marking the coming of a new "age" (or world).

December 21st, 2012 is the "end" of this "age" (and perhaps the begining of another).

Such as the Stone, Bronze, and Iron Ages?

[Swiss Mercenary]

Such as the Stone, Bronze, and Iron Ages?

Or the third millenium after the birth of Christ?

[eppie]

The "cyclical interpretation" you refer to does indeed have both a begining and an end (multiple beginings and ends actually), each begining and end marking the coming of a new "age" (or world).

December 21st, 2012 is the "end" of this "age" (and perhaps the begining of another).

So why would these mayans 'predict' an end of an age long after their hole civilization has been destroyed? In the time these calendars were made they were no aware of there being a europe, afrika and asia (correct me if I am wrong). So what would end of age mean in this case?

[Jester]

The "cyclical interpretation" you refer to does indeed have both a begining and an end (multiple beginings and ends actually), each begining and end marking the coming of a new "age" (or world).

December 21st, 2012 is the "end" of this "age" (and perhaps the begining of another).

Sure. But that is no different from the Christian concept of a Millenium. It is the next large unit. It is not, except for the kooks, the end of the world, the coming of the messiah, or anything like that.

-Jester

[Hammerskjold]

I can't believe I have to take time away from my studies and laundry to do this. But there has been so much misinformation being flung around like so much chimpanzee droppings that I have to set some things straight.

There's no need to worry about any prediction of doom and gloom or any End Times according to any calendar I've consulted. Not in the Gregorian, not in the Lunar, not in the Mayan, not even in the Martian ones.

Though there is one potential age of upheaval when I consulted the Farmer's Almanac. If I'm reading it right, we're now in the dawning of the Age of Asparagus.

[kandrathe]

If I'm reading it right, we're now in the dawning of the Age of Asparagus.

Woohoo! I love asparagus!