MicroShaft FrontPage 2001

[Yrrek]

Hello all, my friend recently gave me his copy of MS FrontPage 2001. I was wondering what everyone thought of this program? What is it good for? What are its(is this the correct form?) drawbacks? I haven't had a chance to test it out myself yet, I have been busy working. I was just wondering what everyone used it for and how well it worked, being MicroShaft and all....
Hope we get some discussion! Thanks for replies ahead of time!

[Bolty]

Wait, you got a program and you don't even know what it's for?

-Bolty

[Tal]

There are some things, like the site directory, that Frontpage does very well. But for all that it does well, I still prefer Dreamweaver MX by far. Also keep in mind that Frontpage does some very strange things with the HTML code - and adds in a lot of extraneous stuff that makes the code very cluttered.

[Yrrek]

Bolty: Well, I had an idea, but I am not totally sure. I know it is an HTML editor of sorts (at least that is what I thought it was, I may be wrong, if so please tell me). I am still learning HTML, but I have never used a program to help, so I really have no idea what they can do.

tal125: Hmm, I'll keep that in mind. :) Cluttered code is bad code. Alright, thanks all!

[WarBlade]

I am still learning HTML, but I have never used a program to help, so I really have no idea what they can do.

HTML editor: A lot like what I expect you are doing with Notepad or other text editor, but throws in a multitude of extra features aimed directly at web authoring. As an example, Stone's WebWriter 3 has you looking at a familiar view, with some colour coding for various types of tags and has a preview button that toggles the workspace over to a web page simulation, so you can quickly view what your code is doing.

WYSIWYG editor: What you see is what you get. Point and click. Lay things out and start typing. You create the look if the thing and it does all the code or you. Typically they spit out dodgy code that begs for later editing, but at the same time WYSIWYG editors also speed up the process of creating complicated layouts (with table cells and spans in all directions) immeasurably.

I looked at the code from an earlier version of Frontpage once. I started laughing. I called a friend over to show him the page and in moments the pair of us were laughing. Yes, it's that bad.

I'll second Dreamweaver. ;) I've been using Dreamweaver UltraDev 4 for a while and have yet to get Dreamweaver MX, but Macromedia's web authoring product is a good one. Code edits are minimal and they can all be done from within the program. The CSS editing interface is one of my few gripes, but that only takes a minute to swtch the file association for .css back to Notepad.

[Ackpth]

Your friend is a sadistic person. I'd watch him if I were you.

I use FrontPage whenever my masochistic nature overcomes me and I really need to inflict the pain of several hours of having to reclaim my webpages from the destruction that FP causes.

Seriously, if you want to learn HTML, FrontPage is *NOT* going to help one bit. The code that FrontPage generates can bring a grown man to tears. I made the mistake of trying to add a table to an existing webpage with FP2000. Gah. I use FrontPage for acquiring color codes for text and such, and do the real work on good 'ole Notepad :D

BTW, here's a good site for HTML n00bz: http://www.htmlgoodies.com/

[Baal]

Your friend is a sadistic person. I'd watch him if I were you.

Have to agree with that!
God I hate MS Frontpage, all of its versions are utter crap, just look out when MS brings out its .NET that will cause the Frontpage code to become even more horrible.

When I was an "actual" web designer, like getting paid to make webpages.... lol....

Anyway, I had to design a webpage for a Lawyer and well, he gave me Frontpage and said here, use this because my friend says it is good.

I was like.. "Yea, ok..." <_<

I didn't own it, otherwise I would have burnt it when I got home but basically I used it to scare little children on the street. :P

I just used Notepad and told him that Frontpage would be able to edit the page if he needed to later on, as I would never work for this guy again...

Trying to make me use Frontpage.. Ugh! :angry:

Well, that was my story on MS FrontPage.

Laters,
Baal.

[Tal]

The CSS editing interface is one of my few gripes, but that only takes a minute to swtch the file association for .css back to Notepad.

Its a lot easier to use in MX. :)

[WarBlade]

Really? I'll be sure to give it a look then. I doubt I'll let MX hang on to the file association though, simply because I like to be able to just double-click the .css file, make a change, save and close it again. B) There's no way I'm waiting for Dreamweaver to load up for small edits. :blink:

[Yrrek]

Well, good thing I haven't installed it yet, I will have to inform my friend of the grave mistake he is making! Thank you all for letting me know before I ruined everything! Also, I know a little code, I just haven't coded in a while, so I need to freshen up, but I am not a COMPLETE newbie. :) Where can you pick up a copy of DreamweaverMX? Thanks again!

[Yrrek]

EDIT: Sorry, repeated post.

[yangman]

Well, looks like a perfect oppertunity to hijack this thread and go on a tangent.

Lots of months back, when I was actually still in the "web design" business with a pal, we had this one client whose old website still brings agony to my mind whenever I think about it. I don't know who the old webmaster was for this poor soul, but by the end of the first day, I was ready to smash his hands with a sledge hammer so that he may never use another set of keyboard and mouse ever again.

It begun innocently enough with a single zip file and a "here, optimize this" over MSN Messenger. Upon opening the htm files contained within with FrontPage, however, I noticed something very strange: they were blank. Yes, I was actually working on FrontPage. However, the only two reasons were that I could quickly preview the page without changing windows and that the servers I would be uploading to had FrontPage extension.

After trying a few re-opens without success, I then loaded up my trust Notepad to check out this "blank page" problem. What I found was a mess so hidious, so impossibly mangled that it made my computer desk look like a library in comparison. After a few more minutes of playing around with FrontPage, I concluded the following: the code was so horribly messed up that when FrontPage tries to do an "automatic code optimization" it ends up deleting half of the entire document, and all of the content. Oh, and you'd never guess what I found looking at the files in notepad.

<META content="Microsoft FrontPage 4.0" name=GENERATOR>

As if just a few pages weren't bad enough, almost every single .htm file I received had the same problem. To add to the agony, the website is for that of a "specialized" computer dealer, and there was separate pages for each rig and product our client sold.

Long story short, I ended up redoing most of the pages by hand from scratch. Amazing how the introduction of just one thinking brain into the FrontPage/web-master system can reduce the average file-size more than 70%. You know what else is great? The pages actually load now.

[Munkay]

Seriously, if you want to learn HTML, FrontPage is *NOT* going to help one bit. The code that FrontPage generates can bring a grown man to tears.

It did not bring me to tears, but I genuinely learned the bulk of my html knowledge from using frontpage. And I do not take 50 lines to make a table like FP does :P . I used FP for over a year, and enjoyed it. I made over 70 pages with it. All in all its not _that_ bad of a program for a WYSIWYG editor.

I do most of my web paging in notepad now, and haven't used FP in over a year. I think there is one retaining value to WYSIWYG... and that is that it boost your confidence. It allows you to make a webpage that looks stunning, without taking the 3 months to learn all the code to do it. For me, that gave me a goal, and I spent a lot of frustrating hours playing with code till I figured out HTML.

I am by no means saying that some one should get FP, make a page, never look at the code and call themselves a webdesigner. Merely saying, it gives you the ability to see what you can become capable of, given enough time spent with HTML.

Its a formula that worked for me? :blink:

[WarBlade]

It did not bring me to tears, but I genuinely learned the bulk of my html knowledge from using frontpage.

:blink:

And I do not take 50 lines to make a table like FP does&nbsp; :P .&nbsp;&nbsp; I used FP for over a year, and enjoyed it.

:blink: :blink: :blink:

I made over 70 pages with it.

:lol:

All in all its not _that_ bad of a program for a WYSIWYG editor.

:blink:

Yes it is. :P

I do most of my web paging in notepad now, and haven't used FP in over a year.

On one hand I say "phew". One less source of all evil adding to the clutter on the Net. On ther other hand I wonder how it took you so long to convert.

I think there is one retaining value to WYSIWYG... and that is that it boost your confidence.&nbsp; It allows you to make a webpage that looks stunning, without taking the 3 months to learn all the code to do it.&nbsp; For me, that gave me a goal, and I spent a lot of frustrating hours playing with code till I figured out HTML.

I think I get how this works. Your parents parents promise you a car for some landmark birthday and buy you a clapped out wreck. You get pissed off and build a Porche?

I am by no means saying that some one should get FP, make a page, never look at the code and call themselves a webdesigner.

I'll call them a lot of names before the word "webdesigner" enters my head.

Merely saying, it gives you the ability to see what you can become capable of, given enough time spent with HTML.

Its a formula that worked for me?&nbsp; :blink:

:unsure: Wow. Well done I suppose. :unsure:

[keenduck]

If you're making small changes, check out bookmarklets.

There's one that opens up the CSS for a page in a window, allowing you to edit the styles and get realtime feedback (it'll redisplay the page as you change the styling). Very cool, and makes it easy to quickly try out new things.

[WarBlade]

The reason I'd make small changes is because I might go and have a look at a page, realize I could improve on what I'm looking at, double-click the .css file (often in the same directory) make the change, save and close. Anything that can't load as fast as Notepad is worthless to me. ;)

[keenduck]

What it does is you open up the page (in Mozilla/Firebird - IE can't handle this too well), click on the bookmarklet, which brings up a small javascript window with the CSS sheet loaded there. You can edit the rules, which it applies instantaneously. For example, you can do font-family: georgia; and as soon as you type that final "a", it'll apply the font.

The problem with this one is that it doesn't appear to work locally. The CSS files needs to be reachable by http.

Useful for exploring what people have done with their sites though. :)

[DeeBye]

I always liked 1st Page 2000. It's not a WYSIWYG editor, but it does make things neat and tidy. It's certainly better than Notepad.exe.

The thing I liked best about it is the documentation. In real time, and in context, you can read about all the HTML tags and see how they work. The same goes for an accompanying CSS file. I learned a lot about HTML just messing around with 1st Page 2000.

Plus, 1st Page 2000 is free-as-in-beer.

Mozilla's built-in Composer also seems to be a great HTML editor. I haven't toyed with it too much, but it certainly looks impressive.


-DeeBye

[WarBlade]

The problem with this one is that it doesn't appear to work locally. The CSS files needs to be reachable by http.

So, next to useless then. :D

Useful for exploring what people have done with their sites though.&nbsp; :)

Ah I see. So there is a purpose! Well normally I don't bother reading through other people's css material. If I encounter something interesting I can always paste the link into my browser and look, but really unless someone's getting extremely tricky with something, doing so is not worth the effort. I can flick through a book or go and search for people showcasing things online if I want to be impressed. ;)

[keenduck]

I work pretty much the same way you do, but after getting this neat little bookmarklet, I'm gotten in the habit of uploading the rough draft, and working on the CSS through the bookmarklet. Yeah, it's not much of an advantage over having Notepad and Mozilla open at the same time, but for the lazy people out there (me :D ), I don't have to save the CSS file after editing (which I sometimes forget :lol: ) and I don't have to refresh Mozilla.

Of course, later on I have to transfer the modified CSS file in the window to the real thing, but that's another story.

I suppose I'm just easily impressed. <_<

Note: Sometimes the CSS files isn't accessible to you. I usually hide my CSS file in a directory not accessble to the outside, but available to the server. This is to keep people from seeing things you don't want others to see (mostly applies to PHP files, and the ilk, which may have passwords).