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Quote:Well defense skill does matter a bit for crushing blows, but if you are capped for you level (i.e at 350 for L70 or 345 for L69) the mob does need to be +3. The L72 Hellfire Warders in Magtheridon's Lair can crush as well but folks think they don't have a base weapon skill, that they actually have a bit higher.
That's because Hellfire Warders are 73s. They're not 72s.
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Quote:That's because Hellfire Warders are 73s. They're not 72s.
They may be now, but they used to be listed as L72's. It caused a fair bit of discussion because people were getting crushed by mobs that were listed as L72. There are screenshots of it and stuff.
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Quote:Also, just to keep things up to date, I believe I have made up my mind to go with this 0/38/23 build.
So I have a new little area of debate. When I am soloing or need to dps in a group, what is the best route? With the above build I can easily move a point to pick up Seal of Command (which I've actually already done since I figure for one point its worth it to have options). I'm horde though which means I also will eventually get Seal of Blood. As I understand it, Seal of Command gets boosted by spell damage where Seal of Blood gets boosted by physical damage. So I could build a spell damage set and run Seal of Command or I could build a strength/AP set and run Seal of Blood. From some readings it seems like Seal of Blood may actually do more damage with the right gear set, but I don't think I've read anything that is really indepth about it or much of a trusted source. So I'm looking to pick the brains of people here. The basic question is: How do those two seals work and which is better for dpsing?
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If you have any decent amount of spell damage at all, Seal of Righteousness (and especially Judgement of Righteousness) will far outperform Seal of Command. Seal of Command is for Retribution specs who are geared for physical DPS, not tanks who are geared for spellpower; same with Seal of Blood.
The best method of questing is AE grinding. Grab a pack of the mobs you need to kill, put up Blessing of Sanctuary, judge Light on the first one, put up Seal of Righteousness, pop a spellpower trinket, drop a couple of downranked Consecrations (I use rank 2), and keep Holy Shield up. I switch to Blessing of Wisdom and stop using Holy Shield when I'm down to 1-2 mobs and start judging Wisdom to get some mana back. Pop a bandage and move on to the next pack.
You can judge light and then use light if you want to go the complete self-sufficient route, but it takes much, much longer since you're using a low-DPS spellcaster weapon instead of a normal physical DPS weapon. You have no downtime at all, but you'll probably fall asleep halfway through a pull.
ArrayPaladins were not meant to sit in the back of the raid staring at health bars all day, spamming heals and listening to eight different classes whine about buffs.[/quote]
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Quote:If you have any decent amount of spell damage at all, Seal of Righteousness (and especially Judgement of Righteousness) will far outperform Seal of Command. Seal of Command is for Retribution specs who are geared for physical DPS, not tanks who are geared for spellpower; same with Seal of Blood.
Alright so Seal of Command is physical based. That makes it for sure that I need to build a strength based set. I figure its good to be prepared in case I end up in a group with two tanks. If I have such a set and am forced to try to dps I should at least do better than I would without it. So that info helps some. I'm building up a healing set as well even though I plan on tanking as much as possible. I like to be prepared.
I'm still unsure which is better between Seal of Command and Seal of Blood though. If I'm in a 5 man with somebody else tanking and somebody else healing, which route would be the best for me dpsing?
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Quote:Alright so Seal of Command is physical based. That makes it for sure that I need to build a strength based set. I figure its good to be prepared in case I end up in a group with two tanks. If I have such a set and am forced to try to dps I should at least do better than I would without it. So that info helps some. I'm building up a healing set as well even though I plan on tanking as much as possible. I like to be prepared.
I'm still unsure which is better between Seal of Command and Seal of Blood though. If I'm in a 5 man with somebody else tanking and somebody else healing, which route would be the best for me dpsing?
It largely depends on your gear. If you want to DPS via Seal of Blood, you can safely ignore all spellpower completely and just gear like a Warrior might. Unfortunately, that will also leave you with a teeny tiny amount of mana. Judgement of Wisdom and/or Blessing of Wisdom, and especially a shadow priest, will counteract that, though.
If you end up in a group with two tanks, the other tank should be the one DPSing. A Prot warrior dual wielding with Devastate spam will do more than a Prot pally using a 2H can, and a kitty will beat both combined by a fair margin.
ArrayPaladins were not meant to sit in the back of the raid staring at health bars all day, spamming heals and listening to eight different classes whine about buffs.[/quote]
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Quote:If you end up in a group with two tanks, the other tank should be the one DPSing. A Prot warrior dual wielding with Devastate spam will do more than a Prot pally using a 2H can, and a kitty will beat both combined by a fair margin.
Whether or not I'll ever be in a situation to need the gear doesn't really matter. Better to have the gear and never need it than to need it and not have it. Its possible I could end up in a 3 pally group, a 2 pally and a healer group, some other bizarre group, or heck maybe the other tank will just feel like tanking that night for the fun of it. I'm gathering healing gear as well even though I never plan on healing. There should always be a better choice than me for dps or healing, but its good to have the gear just in case.
So the question is: with gear of similiar quality, but of the type that the specific seals need; which seal is better non-tanking dps? Then also what type of gear does that seal require. Is Command better with spell damage gear, strength gear, or a hybrid set. Blood seems better with a strength set, but is it or Command better given their respective set. These are the questions I'm wondering. So far I'm thinking that Blood with strength gear is better than Command with a gear set built for it. I don't really have any solid reasoning for this thinking though. Its just what I have absorbed from browsing. Thus why I'm asking about it.
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Quote:So the question is: with gear of similiar quality, but of the type that the specific seals need; which seal is better non-tanking dps? Then also what type of gear does that seal require. Is Command better with spell damage gear, strength gear, or a hybrid set. Blood seems better with a strength set, but is it or Command better given their respective set. These are the questions I'm wondering. So far I'm thinking that Blood with strength gear is better than Command with a gear set built for it. I don't really have any solid reasoning for this thinking though. Its just what I have absorbed from browsing. Thus why I'm asking about it.
From further browsings I've pretty much decided that Blood is better than Command. It seems that in order for Command to equal it you have to be farther along in gear than I ever will be (especially for dps gear I will never use). So for gear sets I'm thinking a tanking set focusing on +stam and +def primarily till I start hitting crit immune then aiming for block and spell damage stats, a healing set focusing on +heal mainly though mp5 and int can't be neglected, and a dps set focusing on strength and crit.
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10-26-2007, 02:12 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2007, 02:14 PM by swirly.)
Quote:Also, just to keep things up to date, I believe I have made up my mind to go with this 0/38/23 build.
So with patch 2.3 in the works I thought I might post up some discussion on its effect on my build. The changes of note are:
Quote:Improved Seal of the Crusader (Retribution) benefits folded into the base spell. This talent now gives the benefits of the Sanctified Crusader talent instead. (+1 crit to all attacks per point)
Precision (Protection) now increases spell hit chance as well.
Pursuit of Justice (Retribution) is now 3 ranks and increases movement speed by 5/10/15% and also reduces the chance you'll be hit by spells by 1/2/3%.
Weapon Expertise (Protection) renamed Combat Expertise, now increases expertise by 1/2/3/4/5 and total Stamina by 2/4/6/8/10%.
The biggest of the bunch is Weapon Expertise. 10% more stamina is huge and so that is now a must have talent for a tanking build.
Precision is also a must have now since I thought it was worthy before they increased its use.
The change to Pursuit of Justice is interesting. I already liked the movement speed increase and now it makes spells hit less often. The chance isn't very high though. It is yet another small help against spell damage which is a trouble spot for paladins though. So the talent still seems borderline now, but much less so.
I had decided that Improved Seal of the Crusader wasn't worth taking in the old build. With the change I'm not so sure anymore. 3% crit to everybody hitting the mob is pretty big. In 5 mans where I'm likely to spend most of my time it isn't as big, but in raids it could be huge. So it comes back into consideration as a choice.
Basically I'm looking at 2 builds. (using the old calc so you'll have to imagine the changes to the talents)
0/49/12 which will probably be a pretty standard tanking build.
0/40/21 The point in SoC being a placeholder for the third point in PoJ.
The choice here seems to be pure tank and frontloaded aggro vs tank with less emergency talents, more long term aggro, and dps. It kind of bothers me that Sanctity Aura would now be only useful to myself, holy priests, and other paladins. I've also done one PUG run so far and noticed a few times where Avenger's Shield could be useful. I still feel like I run out of mana super fast though and AS will just make that even worse. Argent Defender is also becoming more tempting with the added stamina to make it come into effect at a higher value. I think currently I'm leaning towards the 0/40/21 build mainly because I'm still not sold on AS and AD despite all that I just said about them.
Another point of interest for me is in gemming my items. Currently I'm torn between using all +12 stamina gems and throwing in some +5 spell damage gems. I think that maybe in the current patch it is correct to use +12 in everything. In 2.3 I can see it possibly changing though. Gaining 10% stamina could make the loss of some stamina from gems worth the spell damage + socket bonuses. Its something I'm going to be watching anyway.
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