Paladin talent choices

[Kevin]

Except I might try doing some PUGs as well. My experience with sophie (my priest for those who don't know) is that groups often fill up on healers before they fill up on tanks. So I do kind of have a slight plan of watching the LFG channel for groups to tank things for.

Your point is right though, a guild normal instance run is a cakewalk. Quite often the tank isn't even really necessary since things die so fast anyway and there is often tons of CC. So in those types of runs gearing is either not important or different choices can be made. I guess what I'm more asking though is what specific items I should be aiming to get so that when I hit revered with places I will be able to hold up inside of a heroic. It'll give me a guideline of what instances I need to prioritize for what drops, what reps to build, etc etc.

Yeah I can't help there as much. Kam got there on pretty much quest rewards and crafts. I wear pretty much 2 instance drops. Devilshark cape and Pauldrons of Brute Force on him (I do have Jade Skull BP now and Elementium Band of the Sentry) but for a warrior you can be heroic ready off of just quest rewards and crafts basically. Not sure about a pally. So yeah this isn't really a value added post. But I didn't look at instance drops. I've done a few PuGs and my spec was designed to deal with PuG tanking actually but I prefer guild runs. I've already tanked a heroic Slave Pens and that was before I had the shield and axe from the shadowmoon quests. I figure a paladin could fake it in warrior gear as well for heroics though aggro would be iffy since you wouldn't have a ton of spell damage.

[swirly]

I figure a paladin could fake it in warrior gear as well for heroics though aggro would be iffy since you wouldn't have a ton of spell damage.

Thats actually one area I'm kind of curious about...how much spell damage is needed. As a healer, the biggest difference I've noticed between paladin and warrior tanks has been the stamina difference. As a rogue I've not really noticed aggro issues with either. So this makes me think that my priorities should follow the order of:

Stamina
Block Rating (since blocking does soooo many things for a pally)
Defence (though still wanting enough to be crit immune even though I don't have it as top priority)
Block Value (figure that since blocking is so good, blocking for more should be good too)
Spell Damage

So while I'm not wanting to ignore spell damage, I'm really wondering how necessary it will be. It seems like its the last in the line of priorties and that just the random amounts of it I can pick up on gear with other stats will be enough. This may just be something I have to figure out from actually playing with people since its kind of a fluid thing. I think that was the basic thinking behind my gear choices. I'm going to have to go back over them and compare to the items others have listed here.

[TheDragoon]

Thats actually one area I'm kind of curious about...how much spell damage is needed. As a healer, the biggest difference I've noticed between paladin and warrior tanks has been the stamina difference. As a rogue I've not really noticed aggro issues with either. So this makes me think that my priorities should follow the order of:

Stamina
Block Rating (since blocking does soooo many things for a pally)
Defence (though still wanting enough to be crit immune even though I don't have it as top priority)
Block Value (figure that since blocking is so good, blocking for more should be good too)
Spell Damage

So while I'm not wanting to ignore spell damage, I'm really wondering how necessary it will be. It seems like its the last in the line of priorties and that just the random amounts of it I can pick up on gear with other stats will be enough. This may just be something I have to figure out from actually playing with people since its kind of a fluid thing. I think that was the basic thinking behind my gear choices. I'm going to have to go back over them and compare to the items others have listed here.

I found that when I hit 70 on my pally tank that I was able to hold aggro just fine with 100-150 spell damage. However, that often meant that I was spamming all of my biggest threat moves constantly and I had to rely on salvation a lot more. Nowadays, I generally am tanking with 200-300 spell damage and I can literally spam out threat at the start of the fight and then slack off for the last 2/3rds of the fight. In endurance fights, it really, really helps to have the higher spell damage because you can throw down holy shield and consecration while having judged and used seal of wisdom to regenerate mana.

Thus, for bosses I usually start out at full threat and pop Avenging Wrath on my second cycle and continue to spam threat for those 30 seconds. Then I usually have a gigantic threat lead and I judge wisdom, cast wisdom and just keep consecration and holy shield up. If people get close, then I might start using seal of righteousness again, but that is usually only for very high threat groups (like groups with insane shadow priests).

As for tank priorities, I think you're pretty good. Stam > all for non-raid tanking, generally, shield block is amazing for paladins, defense will get you uncrushability and decent avoidance, shield block rating is ok and spell damage will help lock down aggro and let you use wisdom more to help chain pull. :)

[swirly]

I'm going to step through each position and discuss whats going through my head in comparing gear I picked, the stuff tuft listed, and the felsteel that GG meantioned.

Head

Helm of the Righteous
946 Armor
54 Stamina
24 Intellect
23 spell damage
6 mp5
25 defense
5% Stun resist

X-52 Technician's Helm
875 Armor
36 Stamina
16 Strength
16 Intellect
36 spell damage
6 mp5
16 defense

Felsteel Helm
1284 Armor
51 stamina
9 spell damage
33 defense
+4 hit rating

or (depending on socketing)

1284 Armor
45 stamina
15 spell damage
33 defense
+4 hit rating

X-52 looks like the weakest, though since its a quest reward it may be what I end up with till I get the others (though I think we have extra felsteel helms floating around so not sure about even that). It does have more spell damage, but the loss of stamina, defense, and armor hurts it in my mind. I like the armor and increased defense on felsteel, but the added damage, int, and stamina on righteous makes me lean towards it. It has plenty of defense as well I think and so the trade off seems decent to me. One big question that I'm unsure of is how much to weigh armor into things. Felsteel has 338 more armor which is a good amount more for one item. I can't judge how important that is though so I may be undervalueing it.

Shoulder

Spaulders of the Righteous
873 Armor
34 Stamina
22 Intellect
25 spell damage
23 defense

I don't think there is really another choice here. Kaylaan's would be an option till I get them, but I don't think they really compare.

Chest

Jade-Skull Breastplate
1164 Armor
30 Strength
50 Stamina
25 defense
23 block rating

Breastplate of the Righteous
1164 Armor
48 Stamina
28 Intellect
2 mp5
33 spell damage
24 defense

I was originally thinking the Block Rating would make jade skull worth using, but looking at these two now I'm starting to wonder about that. Righteous has only 2 less stam, but has int, mp5, spell damage, and 1 more defense. So its quite possible that I'll end up going for righteous here. I do oh so like the idea of block rating though so I'm slightly torn here.

bracer

Sha'tari Wrought Armguards
509 Armor
20 Strength
27 Stamina
16 defense

Thadell's Bracers
448 Armor
12 Intellect
21 Stamina
16 spell damage
9 defense

This one is a little tough. 6 stamina, 7 defense, 61 armor, 20 strength vs 16 spell damage and 12 int. Currently I'm leaning towards thadell's, but its very very close.

gloves

Gauntlets of the Chosen
728 Armor
30 Stamina
15 Agility
35 defense

Felsteel Gloves
943 Armor
39 Stamina
10 spell damage
3 Parry
25 defense

Gauntlets of the Righteous
728 Armor
22 Stamina
20 Intellect
21 spell damage
7 mp5
10 defense

Spiritualist's Gauntlets
623 Armor
27 Stamina
20 spell damage
5 mp5
17 defense

Looking at these choices I'm really starting to lean towards Felsteel. They have the best armor and stamina. Plus they have second best defense and some spell damage. So they really do look like the way to go to me now. This also frees me up in choosing aldor or scryer. Leaving me having no clue which way to go again.

belt

Sha'tari Vindicator's Waistguard
655 Armor
33 Stamina
20 block value
20 defense
24 block rating

Lightwarden's Girdle
622 Armor
14 Intellect
30 Stamina
28 spell damage
23 defense

Another choice between spell damage and block rating. I'm really unsure about this one since all the stats are so close together. One thing to consider though is that Lightwarden's requires aldor rep. Currently I'm leaning towards Sha'tari, but its very close for me.

legs

Legplates of the Righteous
1019 Armor
27 Stamina
24 Intellect
10 mp5.
28 spell damage
26 defense

Felsteel Leggings
1257 Armor
57 Stamina
10 spell damage
4 Dodge
37 defense

The huge stamina on felsteel makes me seriously consider taking it. It does also have a little spell damage though not as much as righteous. The big lose is in int and mp5, but it does have more defense and armor as well. I think I might go with felsteel though since I always feel like paladins are too low on stamina and this helps with that.

boots

Flesh Beast's Metal Greaves
680 Armor
25 Stamina
18 defense
28 dodge

Starcaller's Plated Stompers
722 Armor
14 Intellect
21 Stamina
16 spell damage
13 defense

I'm thinking maybe the starcaller's are better since they have more armor, int, and spell damage. Less defense and stamine, but not a huge amount less in either case. The dodge on flesh beast's is interesting and could make them better, but I'm currently leaning towards starcaller's.

So what does that give in total if I go with the options I was leaning towards

7008 Armor
100 Intellect
307 Stamina
133 spell damage
176 defense
4 Dodge
20 block value
24 block rating
3 Parry
8 mp5
5% Stun resist

not counting weapon, shield, trinkets, rings, libram, talents, or base stats

edit: apparently not counting a neck piece either
edit 2: and a cloak...man I forgot lots of slots. : )

[Artega]

There was a post on the Paladin forums giving you pre-Kara gear to get to reach 11k HP unbuffed and uncrushable. I'll have to see if I can dig it up. This is what my Paladin will be outfitted in when he's ready for Karazhan (currently he's in pure spellpower gear, primarily Lamellar PvP gear, for 5-mans.) Note that I've already factored in gem bonuses, socket bonuses, and enchant bonuses where applicable.

Head: Tankatronic Goggles

1296 Armor
+97 STA
+58 DefR
+39 DodgeR
+13 HitR

Enchant would be Glyph of the Defender (Keepers of Time revered), while the gems would be Powerful Earthstorm Diamond (+18 STA and +5% stun resist) and Enduring Talasite (+6 STA and +4 DefR.) You get an additional 6 STA for socket bonus. If you aren't an Engineer, Felsteel Helm is the next best choice, or you could farm Heroics and get the helm from the badges.

Neck: Strength of the Untamed

+27 STA
+19 DefR
+18 DodgeR

You get this from Cenarion Expedition revered. There are other necks with more STA, but this one has a great combination of Defense and Dodge, which helps you reach uncrushable status that much faster:)

Shoulders: Spaulders of the Righteous

873 Armor
+46 STA
+22 INT
+35 DefR
+15 Spellpower
+10 DodgeR

Drops from Lag, in Botanica. Socket it with two Solid Stars of Elune (+12 STA each), or with two Solid Azure Moonstones if you need to save some cash (+9 STA each.) Add Greater Inscription of the Knight (+15 DefR and +10 DodgeR) or Inscription of the Knight, depending on your status with the Aldor.

Back: Devilshark Cape

78 Armor
+22 STA
+20 DefR
+30 DodgeR
+29 BlockV

Drops from Warlord Kalithresh, in Steam Vaults. Add a Dodge enchant (+12 DodgeR) to it, and you're ready to go. +12 AGI and +120 Armor are also options, but the Dodge enchant will help you reach uncrushable faster.

Chest: Vindicator's Hauberk

1164 Armor
+39 STA
+150 HP
+46 DefR
+19 DodgeR

This chestplate is pretty much the reason to be Aldor for tanks. If you're Scryer, the Jade-Skull Breastplate out of Mechanar is a suitable substitute. Swap in Breastplate of the Righteous for trash and take advantage of the -15% Consecration MP cost 2-piece bonus. Add +150 HP to your boss tanking chestpieces, and +6 to all stats to your trash/spellpower chestpieces.

Shirt: Rich Purple Silk Shirt

Bosses will laugh you out of the instance if you're wearing anything but this:)

Wrists: Bracers of the Green Fortress

581 Armor
+51 STA
+17 DefR
+10 DodgeR

Crafted by Blacksmiths. Mats are a little steep, but you won't find better avoidance bracers for some time. Bracers of Dignity out of Heroic Arcatraz or Vambraces of Courage are suitable substitutes until you can gather the mats to get these crafted. Get +12 STA on them regardless. You may want to opt for +15 Spellpower on your trash/spellpower bracers (I'd suggest either Veteran's Lamellar or Bracers of Dignity for that set.)

Hands: Felsteel Gloves

943 Armor
+59 STA
+25 DefR

Crafted by Blacksmiths, and fairly cheaply at that. Like all sockets, you're going to want to use Solid Stars of Elune or Solid Azure Moonstones. I prefer +8 STA from a Knothide Armor Kit, but +15 AGI is a viable alternative, or you could even shell out for +2% Threat if that's your sort of thing.

Waist: Sha'tari Vindicator's Waistguard

655 Armor
+33 STA
+20 DefR
+24 BlockR
+29 BlockV

Acquired by completing the quest, How to Break Into the Arcatraz. You'll be needing exalted Sha'tar reputation for your shield, anyway, so this is a quest well worth doing, and it's not particularly hard, either. You even get an Arcatraz Key for your efforts.

Legs: Timewarden's Leggings

1019 Armor
+133 STA
+12 AGI
+18 DefR
+11 DodgeR

From Keepers of Time Revered status. If you're a Blacksmith and want the Felsteel bonus for some reason, Felsteel Leggings are a sidegrade to these. Give them three Solid Stars or Solid Moonstones and a Nethercleft kit and you're set.

Feet: Flesh Beast's Metal Greaves

680 Armor
+37 STA
+18 DefR
+28 DodgeR

From the quest, Someone Else's Hard Work Pays Off. Get +12 STA on them and you're set.

Ring: Elementium Band of the Sentry

+24 STA
+20 DefR
+19 DodgeR

Off Harbinger Skyriss in Arcatraz. You'll have to kill him for a quest, anyway, so you might as well get this ring in the process:)

Ring: Andormu's Tear

+10 DefR
+26 DodgeR
+15 BlockR

From the quest, Hero of the Brood. The lack of STA hurts, but this ring has absurd avoidance stats. If you chose a different ring for the quest reward, you can have a Delicate Eternium Ring crafted for you, or you could pick up Dath'Remar's Ring of Defense out of Mechanar. There are many options to this ring, but none are as good at pure avoidance as this one.

Trinket: Figurine of the Colossus

+32 BlockR

Dropped by Warchief Kargath Bladefist, in Shattered Halls. Other options include Adamantine Figurine and Dabiri's Enigma. You DO generate threat for the heals during the use portion of this trinket, which makes it fantastic for fast-attacking enemies like Prince and Moroes.

Trinket: Goblin Rocket Launcher

+45 STA

Crafted and usable only by Goblin Engineers:) The huge STA helps compensate for Pallies' naturally lower HP. Other options include Argussian Compass, off The Black Stalker in Heroic Underbog, or Darkmoon Card: Vengeance (which you should get after you reach uncrushable status, anyway), which comes from collecting and completing the Furies deck of Darkmoon cards.

Weapon: Crystalforged Sword

+30 STA
+8 INT
+11 BlockR
+161 Spellpower

Created via Apexis Crystal Infusion, in the Blade's Edge Mountains Ogri'la areas. It's a random drop off pretty much any mob in the area. Shartuul has the highest droprate for this item, but it's probably more likely you'll see it in the AH from time to time, usually for about 100-200g. Get +40 Spellpower on it. If you can't get one, Continuum Blade from Keepers of Time revered is a suitable substitute.

Shield: Crest of the Sha'tar

4465 Armor
132 Block
+61 STA
+13 DefR
+3 DodgeR

Acquired via Sha'tar Exalted status. Azure-Shield of Coldarra is better, but also requires a fair number of Heroic badges, and you'll need Libram of Repentance before anything else. It's a great shield to have, and allows you the option of spending your Badges on other things. Two Solid Stars or Solid Moonstones and +18 STA enchant make it complete.

Libram: Libram of Repentance

+42 BlockR while Holy Shield is active.

Essentially adds +5.30% Block while Holy Shield is up, for a total of +35.30%. Absolutely critical for reaching uncrushable status, and should be the very first thing you buy with Heroic badges.

EDIT: The cookiecutter Paladin tank build is 0/49/12. Once you start moving beyond Karazhan, you'll generally want to drop Reckoning for Weapon Expertise, since Reckoning won't proc as often due to you avoiding many hits, and Weapon Expertise will end up as being more threat overall. You could probably drop some points out of Anticipation when you no longer need the extra defense and move them around as you see fit; Guardian's Favor might be a good idea.

[Shriek]

Thats actually one area I'm kind of curious about...how much spell damage is needed. As a healer, the biggest difference I've noticed between paladin and warrior tanks has been the stamina difference. As a rogue I've not really noticed aggro issues with either. So this makes me think that my priorities should follow the order of:

Stamina
Block Rating (since blocking does soooo many things for a pally)
Defence (though still wanting enough to be crit immune even though I don't have it as top priority)
Block Value (figure that since blocking is so good, blocking for more should be good too)
Spell Damage

As the others have been saying, how much +dmg you need is dependant on your DPSers. If they're well geared or unskilled, you have to be a lot more careful of your threat.

The rule-of-thumb for pally tanks seems to be to disregard +dmg everywhere but your weapon. Grab a caster weapon and put +40 dmg on it, then gear for def, stam, & avoidance. The Greatsword of Horrors or the Continuum Blade are good choices; the Crystalforged Sword is the best you can get this side of Gruul or Arenas. Not to say a little extra +dmg from other pieces isn't nice, just that you will probably want to focus on being able to take the hits first.

If you're taking the def / avoidance quest rewards as you level, you should have very little difficulty hitting 490 defense, iirc I hit 490 the same day I dinged 70, and the only thing I bought was the Felsteel Gloves.

You'll find several gear slots that have very few options that really fit the bill. Shoulders, wrists, and boots especially have pretty slim pickin's--Artega's picked out most of the really popular tankin' stuff. The odd thing is that there's very little of any use from Heroics. I only run them for badges and heal gear.

Most completely ignore socket bonuses and use nothing but +stam gems.

I found gearing up to be more interesting on my Pally tank than on my previous chars--instead of simply, "I need more AP" or "I need more +Heal", there are actual accomplishable objectives, and it feels good to get there. Hit 490 def. Earn the 15 badges for your libram. Hit 102.4% avoidance. Well, those and the ever-present "More HP".

Hang on to the gear you find with particularly good avoidance, HP, etc. If you start raiding you'll have a balancing act to maximise your HP while maintaining uncrushable, and it'll change depending on your latest upgrade, or even what buffs you have on.

[Artega]

You need more spellpower as you progress through raid instances, but for Karazhan and the like, just what you get from your weapon will be enough. Joining an Arena team for access to the season 2 spellpower mace would make a huge difference.

[swirly]

Most completely ignore socket bonuses and use nothing but +stam gems.

Instead of pure stamina gems I was thinking of using the following:

red: Glowing Nightseye = +5 Spell Damage, +6 Stam
blue: Glowing Nightseye = +5 Spell Damage, +6 Stam
yellow: Enduring Talasite = +4 Def, +6 Stam

I'll have to see how my stats are as I get the pieces, but I like the idea of adding some other stats as well as stamina. Plus many of the socket bonuses are useful to a paladin in some way. It could very well be that my stamina will be low enough that I need the pure gems though.

[Lissa]

So kinda putting in an alternate for what I was thinking for Angelique upon hitting 70 is the following:

28/33/0

The idea behind this build is to be able to tank reasonably well and also heal reasonably well when the need arises. I did some number crunching on Ardent Defender and found it to be woefully inadequate (if you're at 35% health it means you have to take 50% of your health to die and just goes downward from there). Also, while Avenger's Shield is nice, I think I can live without it for purposes of being a better healer when needed.

Another option I was looking at that would allow for more tanking, but a little less healing would be to go 20/33/8 with the changes being nothing past tier 4 in Holy and dropping Aura Mastery to get Benediction and 3 points into Deflection.

Anyone see any glaring wholes in either of these two builds?

[swirly]

Just adding a couple of items for me to consider. Making sure I have them in one place.

Steam-Hinge Chain of Valor
Neck
+26 Stamina
Equip: Increases your shield block rating by 19.
Equip: Increases the block value of your shield by 29.

Protector's Mark of the Redemption
Finger
+22 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by 25.
Equip: Increases the block value of your shield by 15.

Dath'Remar's Ring of Defense
Unique
Finger
+15 Stamina
Equip: Increases your shield block rating by 15.
Equip: Increases the block value of your shield by 39.

Dabiri's Enigma
Unique
Trinket
Equip: Increases defense rating by 30.
Use: Increases block rating by 125 for 15 sec.

[TheDragoon]

If I were going for more of a hybrid healer/tank build, I'd opt for something like this 28/33/0 build. I personally don't think that dropping healing points to pick up just 3% Parry is really worth it. If you're raiding you'll have raiding gear to help you hit uncrushable... if you're not, then you don't need to be uncrushable and then 8 points for 3% Parry isn't such a great investment. :)

[swirly]

So, as was stated to GG, alot of the point of this is so I have an idea of what places I need to go...so I have some sort of plan. To that end I need to look at where things come from now.

helm
Felsteel Helm: crafted
Helm of the Righteous: Mech

neck
Strength of the Untamed: CE Rep
Steam-Hinge Chain of Valor: SV

cloak
Devilshark Cape: SV

shoulder
Spaulders of the Righteous: Bot

chest
Vindicator's Hauberk: Aldor Rep
Jade-Skull Breastplate: Mech
Breastplate of the Righteous: SV

bracer
Sha'tari Wrought Armguards: SL
Thadell's Bracers: Non-instance Quest

glove
Felsteel Gloves: crafted
Gauntlets of the Righteous: SH

waist
Sha'tari Vindicator's Waistguard: Mech and Bot
Lightwarden's Girdle: Non-instance Quest

leg
Felsteel Leggings: crafted
Legplates of the Righteous: BM
Timewarden's Leggings: KoT Rep

feet
Flesh Beast's Metal Greaves: MT
Starcaller's Plated Stompers: Non-instance Quest

rings
Protector's Mark of the Redemption: Non-instance Quest
Dath'Remar's Ring of Defense: Mech
Elementium Band of the Sentry: Arc
Andormu's Tear: BM

trinkets
Figurine of the Colossus: SH
Dabiri's Enigma: Non-instance Quest

weapon
Crystalforged Sword: Ogri'la random drop
Continuum Blade: KoT Rep

shield
Crest of the Sha'tar: Sha'tar Rep
Platinum Shield of the Valorous: SL
Aegis of the Sunbird: Bot
Petrified Lichen Guard: Spore Rep

Libram
Libram of Saints Departed: BF
Libram of the Eternal Rest: Sethekk


So it looks to me like my main goals should be running SV and getting KoT rep. Doing those two things should get me a decent set of armor when combined with crafted items, quest rewards, and a couple random runs through other places I'm sure will get hit. Mech also seems a decent place to hit with several items coming out of it. This tells me some places to focus on anyway.

[Taelas]

Greatsword of Horrid Dreams is good as well. SL drop off Murmur.

[Tuftears]

The crystalforged sword is fairly common too, you may be able to find it cheaply on the AH. (look for a Depleted Sword or Crystalforged Sword)

I found several, all of which I placed with paladin friends and my own paladin.

[swirly]

I'm finding myself becoming torn about talent builds again. Here are the two choices going through my mind

0/49/12 VS 0/38/23

My plan was to go 0/49/12 and to run retribution aura while tanking. As I get better and better gear retribution aura will start procing less since I will be avoiding more hits. So this made me start debating my aura choice. Devotion aura has always seemed rather unimpressive as well. This led me down the path to the second build. It gives me access to improved sanctity aura which gives 10% more holy damage and 2% more total damage. So where retribution gets worse with better gearing, sanctity gets better as your gear improves. In addition, retribution does almost nothing for the rest of the group since they shouldn't be getting hit. Improved sanctity gives 2% more damage to the rest of the group and so thus is of use there. Given the choice between the two auras I'm really starting to lean towards sanctity. I'd like to hear thoughts from other people on this though. I've never seen it used at all in game and so there has to be reasons why.

Now its not actually a straight swap though. Other talents are lost and gained so that has to be considered as well. The switch means losing avenger's shield, ardent defender, and either anticipation or reckoning. meanwhile it gains sanctity aura, the improvement for it, crusade, pursuit of justice, and vindication. First I'll talk about the losses.

Avenger's shield: It gives a good head start on aggro, kills runners, and can be fit in many other times as well. So its a good solid talent that does help a good amount. In my mind its the one big loss from the switch. I have been noticing that it is quite the mana hog though. Now I'm not geared yet (only lvl 53 so this is all theory) and so that could be why it feels like a hog. I'm just unsure that I will really miss the skill. It'll help for sure in PUGs where people don't know how to manage threat, but in guild runs the frontloading should be less of an issue I would think. I also think that on bosses sanctity will add more threat over the length of the fight, especially considering the mana saved from not using avenger's shield could be put into other threat causing skills as well. So this becomes a talent used on trash pulls. Still useful, but trash is called trash for a reason.

Argent defender: I kind of like the idea of this skill, but yet kind of don't. Its a good way to help a healer who has fallen behind catch back up. I should appreciate that alot since I have a nasty habit as a healer of falling behind. Yet I know that that is just me not playing my healer enough and not playing as well as I should. So in my mind this also kind of becomes a PUG talent. I worry that in most situations it will just never really matter.

Anticipation/Reckoning: Here we have a choice of where to pull points from. As gear gets better anticipation becomes less needed. Now it does add some flexibility. It allows different gear choices in that its less defence that your gear has to get in total. So its nice to have, but not absolutely required. Reckoning is also nice to have. It suffers from the same problem as retribution aura though. As your gear gets better reckoning will proc less. So it might be possible to do away with the talent when you reach a certain gear level. Now I'm going to wager that in most heroics and in raids mobs will always get some damage through blocks and so you aren't going to be dodging/parrying all the attacks. There will still be plenty of chances for it to proc. It does get less as gear improves though. That is why I list it as an option.

Now the thing with all of these choices is that they are basically gear dependent. All of these skills that are being lost are good when you don't have that good of gear, but become less important as you get better gear. The exception to that could be avenger's shield, but I feel that even that gets worse as your gear gets better since your overall aggro generation should go up and so you need the frontloading less. From looking at gear it feels to me like it won't be too hard to get pretty decent gear. Questing in itself seems to give a decent set and there are alot of crafted items to add with it. Several slots are rep rewards as well so don't require luck in getting a drop, but just time put in. So I feel like it might be possible to lose these talents, though I'm by no means sure. I've very torn about it. Of course there is the option of keeping them until I get the gear and then respecing out of them, but I'm not the biggest fan of that. I like to play with the same build as much as possible.

Now for what is gained.

Sanctity aura: Added holy damage means more threat and more dps as well. The majority of a paladin's threat comes from holy damage and so a 10% boost seems pretty nice to me. In addition that 10% should be further boosted by righteous fury so the threat part of it is even more than a 10% gain. Even on AOE pulls, with a decent amount of spell damage I feel like this could be more threat and damage that retribution aura provides.

Improved sanctity aura: It increases the damage done by the whole party. It feels like the only non-resist aura that really gives any gain to the rest of the group. In addition it affects my damage as well. So thats 2%+righteous fury more threat.

Crusade: more damage and threat against select mob types. Situationally useful. I feel like there are alot of those types in instances though. Not a great talent, but semi-decent filler.

Pursuit of justice: paladins have no intercept type ability. Their taunt is ranged so that helps, but if I need to catch a mob the run speed will help. Again, not great, but semi-decent filler.

Vindication: Doesn't work on most bosses. Should work on heroic trash. Like I said earlier though, trash is trash for a reason. So definately the weakest of the gains. Pretty questionable really.

So basically the gain is a good aura that helps the whole group and a couple minor filler talents. What is lost is a good skill and a couple of talents that might be nullified by gear. Thus I'm torn. I see arguements for both sides and I'm just not sure which way I really want to go.

[Artega]

Fanblade Pauldrons are better than Righteous for pure mitigation, but overall I'd probably use Righteous anyway.

Bracers of the Green Fortress are the best bracers you can get for a good long time, as far as reaching uncrushable goes. Bracers of Dignity would be ideal for trash.

Belt of the Guardian is pretty much the best possible belt you can get for some time, though with two vortexes required to make it, it's probably not gonna be cheap.

Argussian Compass is a good trinket to use after you've reached uncrushable without both trinkets. Upgrades to this would be either Engineering trinket (and you can use two of them for a massive +90 STA) or Darkmoon Card: Vengeance. If you're willing to spare the cash and time, picking up engineering comes highly recommended.

Libram of Repentance is the only Libram you'll be using while raiding, at least to start out with. It's crucial for reaching uncrushable. I'd still probably use it for Heroics, though you could probably drop it for Eternal Rest and two-piece Righteous for 5-mans.

[Taelas]

Darkmoon Card: Vengeance is probably the best trinket for a paladin tank. The proc is affected by spelldamage and Righteous Fury. Add to that the +51 stamina...

[Taelas]

I'm finding myself becoming torn about talent builds again. Here are the two choices going through my mind

0/49/12

Something that just occurred to me.

Drop Precision and take 3/5 Weapon Expertise instead. The first 5 weapon skill above your unbuffed maximum adds +3% hit already -- and 3/5 Weapon Expertise grants 6 weapon skill.

[swirly]

Something that just occurred to me.

Drop Precision and take 3/5 Weapon Expertise instead. The first 5 weapon skill above your unbuffed maximum adds +3% hit already -- and 3/5 Weapon Expertise grants 6 weapon skill.

Wouldn't this only be the case against level 73 mobs? Lower level mobs would already be within 10 weapon skill of the player and so those points would have less effect. This means 3/5 Weapon Expertise would only grant that amount of +hit versus raid bosses while Precision effects all mobs equally.

Also, just to keep things up to date, I believe I have made up my mind to go with this 0/38/23 build.

[Taelas]

Wouldn't this only be the case against level 73 mobs? Lower level mobs would already be within 10 weapon skill of the player and so those points would have less effect. This means 3/5 Weapon Expertise would only grant that amount of +hit versus raid bosses while Precision effects all mobs equally.

Also, just to keep things up to date, I believe I have made up my mind to go with this 0/38/23 build.

You're right, of course, but weapon skill doesn't just affect +hit.