[Terenas] Identification of KEY Kara upgrades

[Concillian]

Maiden -- Bands of Nefarious Deeds --Mage/Frost -- Focused Mana Bindings (Akama/BT)

They aren't epic, and lack stam, but when I was looking a s.priest gear, there were people in T5 still using blue crafted bracers:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24250
(socket with +9 spell damage)

[AlienLuvChyld]

Attumen: Handwraps of Flowing Thought -Been trying to get these FOREVER and they wont drop when I am on...hands down the best ShadowPriest gloves and my biggest upgrade in game

[Urza-DSF]

They aren't epic, and lack stam, but when I was looking a s.priest gear, there were people in T5 still using blue crafted bracers:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24250
(socket with +9 spell damage)

As a quick aside, Molf can craft these for any of you Terenas folks

[Frag]

Remember he asked for -key- upgrades, little late for that though. As far as tanking goes, Boots of Elusion & Moroes Lucky Pocketwatch should be the only key items for a plate-tank from Kara. Aldor Legacy Defender from Gruul and that's it from the T4 instances.

Cheers,
~Frag ;)

[Jester]

Remember he asked for -key- upgrades, little late for that though. As far as tanking goes, Boots of Elusion & Moroes Lucky Pocketwatch should be the only key items for a plate-tank from Kara. Aldor Legacy Defender from Gruul and that's it from the T4 instances.

Cheers,
~Frag ;)

King's Defender?

Panzar'thar?

-Jester

[Concillian]

King's Defender?

Panzar'thar?

Mallet of the Tides from the first boss in SSC... KD not key. Also Sun Eater is almost on a par and more farmable.
Panzar'thar is inferior to T4 for warriors and for pallies PZ is slightly better in avoidance, but T4 better for threat:
PZ vs WT4 -- +3 STA -60 armor +4 defense +1 block rating -6 block value -17 AGI -18STR

The armor difference, though small, is enough to negate the stam from the effective life calculation.
The defense difference is small, and the dodge offered from the agility makes the avoidance more for T4
With STR and more block rating T4 is clearly superior for threat

PZ vs PT4 -- +3 STA -60 armor +3 defense +1 block rating -27 spell dam -30 INT

Armor / STA same as warrior comparison. Slightly more avoidance on Panzar'thar, but T4 has spell dam and INT for threat.

Neither of those should be classified as KEY. There are potential upgrades or sidegrades pretty early in 25 man content. We are trying to identify items that potentially have no replacement for a longer time than Magtheridon.

[TheDragoon]

Remember he asked for -key- upgrades, little late for that though. As far as tanking goes, Boots of Elusion & Moroes Lucky Pocketwatch should be the only key items for a plate-tank from Kara. Aldor Legacy Defender from Gruul and that's it from the T4 instances.

Cheers,
~Frag ;)

What about the Barbed Choker of Discipline or the epic tanking hats (Eternium Greathelm and T4)? I didn't see any real replacements for those in early 25-man raiding. T5 hat doesn't come until Lady Vashj, IIRC, and that's not soon. :)

[Sinomin]

Dont forget that Panzar'thar has a straight -50 damage mitigation from Block Value (talented) and is also increased threat for Warriors.

The amount of +spell damage for threat is relative to the raids gearing and type of mobs, obviously. It will always be a juggling act with where and how much +spell damage is needed. At this point in time I wouldnt use the T4 breastplate unless I needed the extra threat from the 4 pc bonus. Any +Block Value will carry a large value, especially once you reach uncrushable and over 50% of hits on you are blocks.

Sta>AC>Block Value

[Concillian]

Dont forget that Panzar'thar has a straight -50 damage mitigation from Block Value (talented) and is also increased threat for Warriors.

The amount of +spell damage for threat is relative to the raids gearing and type of mobs, obviously. It will always be a juggling act with where and how much +spell damage is needed. At this point in time I wouldnt use the T4 breastplate unless I needed the extra threat from the 4 pc bonus. Any +Block Value will carry a large value, especially once you reach uncrushable and over 50% of hits on you are blocks.

Sta>AC>Block Value

Sorry, I left that out of the pally comparison.

For warriors the T4 piece has block value on it too (more than Panzar'thar does) so that comparison still favors T4. There is no question that T4 warrior chest > Panzar'thar for warrior. Paladin, as I mentioned is a threat vs. mitigation tradeoff. IMO there is a much better argument that this is a "KEY" item for paladin compared with warrior.

[Concillian]

What about the Barbed Choker of Discipline or the epic tanking hats (Eternium Greathelm and T4)? I didn't see any real replacements for those in early 25-man raiding. T5 hat doesn't come until Lady Vashj, IIRC, and that's not soon. :)

Well, T4 tokens will be in competition with everyone, but we wouldn't go to Prince without at least one person who needs each token type, that's a given. We aren't looking to change the loot system or pressure people into passing on loot they have the queue position to take over everyone else, mostly potentially changing subbing and/or rostering based on some of these key upgrades so that at least one person who can use a "key" upgrade is present.

Tanking items are pretty key in general. We always try to have someone in the raid who can use tanking items that drop (Tuesday it was you, because Wimpy is DPS).

However, we have to balance having people present to loot key items with the continuity of the raid. Subbing 3 people each boss will really slow down a raid. So we have to set the bar for what is considered KEY pretty high.

[Concillian]

I updated the list, trying to weed out key vs. just upgrades.

I need help from the healers identifying anything really key.

So far I only have shard of the virtuous as very key (no MP5 options at all until BT)
The other stuff seems to have more incremental upgrades along the way. Spirit staves / 1H weapons seem to drop all along the way.

I am not going to make a distinguishment on T4 items because the loot system will determine who gets it, we generally will try to make sure a token isn't "wasted" anyway. Tanking stuff is also something we keep an eye out for anyway, as we are a bit lean on tanks well enough geared for 25 man MTing (we basically have Jester, Tiga and Sham. Moors is close, but a bit low on HP). So I haven't really included much in the way of tanking items. We know we want tanks to get tanking gear, we always try to have a tank who will use a tanking item that might drop present at boss kills.

I think we may need to have a little more structure with how we choose subs if multiple are available, and I think this will be a point of discussion for the raid leaders.

[Treesh]

I updated the list, trying to weed out key vs. just upgrades.

I need help from the healers identifying anything really key.

So far I only have shard of the virtuous as very key (no MP5 options at all until BT)

For resto shaman, the only thing that comes close to key (besides the totem) is the Earthblood Chestguard, but get either the T4 or the Merciless Gadiator chestpiece and you can gem them up to be comparable. Even the shard isn't something I'd consider key as a resto shaman since you can get similar from PvP rewards and even the Sha'tar rep one. That's the nice thing about shaman healing - what's good for PvP is good for PvE. :) There are also pieces that you can get out of heroic that is comparable (for shaman) to what you can get out of Kara. The Totem of Healing Rains is the only absolutely must have for a resto shaman out of Kara.

[TheDragoon]

Well, T4 tokens will be in competition with everyone, but we wouldn't go to Prince without at least one person who needs each token type, that's a given. We aren't looking to change the loot system or pressure people into passing on loot they have the queue position to take over everyone else, mostly potentially changing subbing and/or rostering based on some of these key upgrades so that at least one person who can use a "key" upgrade is present.

Tanking items are pretty key in general. We always try to have someone in the raid who can use tanking items that drop (Tuesday it was you, because Wimpy is DPS).

However, we have to balance having people present to loot key items with the continuity of the raid. Subbing 3 people each boss will really slow down a raid. So we have to set the bar for what is considered KEY pretty high.

Ok, I guess I'm not following what this list is really about, then, but I thought Frag was implying that there was a better tanking hat/necklace available from Gruul, Magtheridon, VR, or early SSC. I didn't know of any (until Lady Vashj for the hat.. not sure where the next necklace would be), so I added those as additional possibilities. :)

[Frag]

As much of a bang-up job Conc has been doing of defending my claim, figured (now that the internet is back on, holy moses that was some storm last night, hope the East Coast didn't see too much of it) I'd respond:

Frayed Tether of the Drowned by Fathom-Lord Karathress - 13% drop.

Faceguard of the Endless Watch by Doomwalker - 17.5% drop.
Faceguard of Determination by Vendor, 50 Badges of Justice

Ideally, a MT would have either Warbringer or Eternium and an off-tank would use FoD or FoEW, but frankly the differences aren't so great that you couldn't make do with a either of the off-set, non-Kara pieces until Vashj.

Cheers,
~Frag :ph34r:

Edit: How the hell did Stalwart Defender end up in place of FoD? Oh well, fixed.

[TheDragoon]

Eh, a necklace that wastes itemization on hit, a hat that wastes it on resilience and an awesome-uber-tanking-hat-of-amazement that drops from a world boss. I guess they'd be ok, but I think the other items are pretty superior as far as tanking goes. :)

[Concillian]

Faceguard of Determination by Vendor, 50 Badges of Justice

Frag, you linked wrong item here...
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32083

[PapaSmurf]

I updated the list, trying to weed out key vs. just upgrades.

I need help from the healers identifying anything really key.

So far I only have shard of the virtuous as very key (no MP5 options at all until BT)

What about the staff I linked earlier off Kazzak? 18 Mp5 is pretty good. Paladins can't use staffs though. Maybe Kazzak is considered too far away?

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30732

[Frag]

Eh, a necklace that wastes itemization on hit,

Blugah?!

Alright, my fault that I used the wrong link for Faceguard of Determination, I'll give you that. But exactly where do you get this idea that tohit is a bad thing for tanks? It's one of the best things we can get for tps.

Cheers,
~Frag B)

[TheDragoon]

Blugah?!

Alright, my fault that I used the wrong link for Faceguard of Determination, I'll give you that. But exactly where do you get this idea that tohit is a bad thing for tanks? It's one of the best things we can get for tps.

Cheers,
~Frag B)

It's not bad, it's just not helpful from a mitigation standpoint. I think this might be a class outlook point since a Paladin needs a *lot* of avoidance to become uncrushable, so they prioritize that sort of gear and they get threat from retribution aura, holy shield and consecration that +hit doesn't help with. Druids have no problem with threat generation, so it's not like they really need any more hit. Warriors, however, are entirely dependant upon hitting their target to generate threat, and they don't have the massive threat generation of a Druid. Hence, +hit is probably more useful for a Warrior than a Pally/Druid. :)

[Frag]

It's not bad, it's just not helpful from a mitigation standpoint. I think this might be a class outlook point since a Paladin needs a *lot* of avoidance to become uncrushable, so they prioritize that sort of gear and they get threat from retribution aura, holy shield and consecration that +hit doesn't help with. Druids have no problem with threat generation, so it's not like they really need any more hit. Warriors, however, are entirely dependant upon hitting their target to generate threat, and they don't have the massive threat generation of a Druid. Hence, +hit is probably more useful for a Warrior than a Pally/Druid. :)

Well, of course tohit doesn't help with mitigation... :D Threat generation is a tanks' ultimate job, mitigation is important because if they don't mitigate enough, they die, and that's the most sure way to stop generating threat. :P

The more threat a tank puts out and the faster they do it, the faster and harder the dps can start and push, meaning the mob dies faster which ultimately means (we) took less damage. Thus I view dps as it's own form of mitigation. Now, that model only works under certain types of fights, there's other fights were pure mitigation is the number one goal, it simply depends on what you're up against.

I have little personal experience with tanking as a paladin (unless you want to count Deadmines and Shadowfang, which I'm not:P) and I also don't consider them equitable tanks compared to bears & warriors so true, I didn't take that into them consideration when I was opining what was useful. They gear very differently.

Now, from my time tanking on Frigid, I can say with experience that to-hit is important for a bear also. Missing a 2.5s Maul and/or a Mangle early on in a fight puts you way behind the threat curve with the dps. For a bear it's possibly even more painful (to miss) because you have to wait another 2.5s to swing.

With as hard and high as dps can push, my feeling is that it's best to gear so you can't be 2-shot by what you're tanking, then gear for threat.

Cheers,
~Frag B)